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News & Features Discussion  » Guild Wars 2: Death to the Old Ways!

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179 posts found
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/10/12 1:15:49 PM#41
Originally posted by Elikal

First, every attempt to make "jake of all trades" characters just was one more step away from real teamplay, towards "groups of soloers", where everyone plays alone, even in a group.

Never played with in an all-controllers and defenders group, I take it?

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

4/10/12 1:19:43 PM#42
Originally posted by gr0und3d
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by gr0und3d

Why do people get all uppety over GW2 combat when it is litterally half as good as TERA's?  GW2 has dodge but still forces tab targetting.  It's like having aimbot on the whole time.

Because for all the things TERA does to make combat more active, it's still a holy-trinity based game with animation locking for a lot of/most abilities.

Pass and pass.

So I'd say TERA is literally 1/3rd to 1/4th as good as GW2's.

Higher levels/glyphs remove/reduce locking/slowness, but besides that the combat is more about timing and resources than spamming buttons.  You don't need the trinity if you're good enough.  Risk vs reward when you fight.  All about your skill.  I see you guys still need your hand held.

Yeah major difference is that if you are NOT good enough, you have the trinity to fall back on in TERA so that good tanks/healers can save your unskilled butt.

Sounds a lot more like hand holding to me :)

To say GW2 combat is not about skill is... laughable at best, grossly uninformed at worst.

Perhaps should re-read the OP and watch some more videos (especially conquest PvP ones)

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1058

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

4/10/12 1:20:15 PM#43

 Really?

REALLY?

Why, oh why , is there continual emphasis on the "we don't have a trinity" aspect of this game?

 

 For those who are burying their heads in the sand....  THERE IS A TRINITY. You will still have healers, you will still have tanks, and you will still have Dps. They have changed the system to some extent but it is alive and well. What Guild Wars 2 trinity doesn't have : Whack-a-mole heals, Taunts. What it does have : Single Target Heals, Rescues, Group heals, AoE Heals, Regens- HoT's ( Which have always been stronger then flat heals in Guild Wars), Damage mitigation abilities, shields, reflects.

 

For the love of everything that is holy in Mmo's stop confusing the playerbase by stating Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a trinity. It absolutely does, its changed ... but its still present.

 

-- Yes I have pre-purchased ,  Yes I'm looking forward to the game. Yes I will running a pvp team as a Healer/support.

 

  Loser60

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/10
Posts: 171

I beg your pardon.

4/10/12 1:25:26 PM#44

It doesn't really, there is that water-support rain for elementalist as far as I remember and some other spiffy stuff. And, well, the mobs don't stay on one target, they tend to jump from target to target, which renders the tank mostly useless.

  Asamof

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/19/04
Posts: 729

4/10/12 1:25:41 PM#45

lmao at people complaining that the game sounds too skill based


god forbid that the game actually tries to engage players, as opposed to turning your brain off when you mindlessly grind 


  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

4/10/12 1:26:05 PM#46
Originally posted by Redemp

 Really?

REALLY?

Why, oh why , is there continual emphasis on the "we don't have a trinity" aspect of this game?

 For those who are burying their heads in the sand....  THERE IS A TRINITY. You will still have healers, you will still have tanks, and you will still have Dps. They have changed the system so some extent but it is alive and well. What Guild Wars 2 trinity doesn't have : Whack-a-mole heals, Taunts. What it does have : Single Target Heals, Rescues, Group heals, AoE Heals, Regens- HoT's ( Which have always been stronger then flat heals in Guild Wars, Damage mitigation abilities, shields, reflects.

For the love of everything that is holy in Mmo's stop confusing the playerbase by stating Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a trinity. It absolutely does, its changed ... but its still present.

-- Yes I have pre-purchased ,  Yes I'm looking forward to the game. Yes I will running a pvp team as a Healer/support.

You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  gr0und3d

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 115

4/10/12 1:26:52 PM#47
Originally posted by BadSpock

Yeah major difference is that if you are NOT good enough, you have the trinity to fall back on in TERA so that good tanks/healers can save your unskilled butt.

Sounds a lot more like hand holding to me :)

To say GW2 combat is not about skill is... laughable at best, grossly uninformed at worst.

Perhaps should re-read the OP and watch some more videos (especially conquest PvP ones)

GW2 combat is still about hitting 1,2,3,dodge,1,2,3, run around while spamming 1,2,3,  WOW you showed them!

I watched the PAX video and that's all he did.  He turned toward the boss,hit tab, and then spammed his abilities as he was running around.  Then got too close and was killed.....  There is skill in dodging but none in aiming.  Better than SWTOR and WOW but only half the combat is real.

 

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

4/10/12 1:31:16 PM#48
Originally posted by gr0und3d
Originally posted by BadSpock

Yeah major difference is that if you are NOT good enough, you have the trinity to fall back on in TERA so that good tanks/healers can save your unskilled butt.

Sounds a lot more like hand holding to me :)

To say GW2 combat is not about skill is... laughable at best, grossly uninformed at worst.

Perhaps should re-read the OP and watch some more videos (especially conquest PvP ones)

GW2 combat is still about hitting 1,2,3,dodge,1,2,3, run around while spamming 1,2,3,  WOW you showed them!

I watched the PAX video and that's all he did.  He turned toward the boss,hit tab, and then spammed his abilities as he was running around.  Then got too close and was killed.....  There is skill in dodging but none in aiming.  Better than SWTOR and WOW but only half the combat is real.

There are no rotations and you don't spam anything other than the "basic" attack really, so you may have watched but you certainly didn't understand.

Every single skill (except for basic attack) is situational and the person who blows all their skills up front is going to lose/die 99% of the time.

It's all about cooldown management and timing.

A huge part of the game also is choosing what skills you even have on your bar in the first place as you only get access to 10 at a time. That's it.

It's a system of opportunity cost. In order to have X you can't also have Y at the same time, etc.

So a lot of the skill is in build making before combat even starts.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5928

4/10/12 1:31:19 PM#49
Originally posted by Tardcore

Props to them for trying something different, but from experience with MMOers for the past decade I think combat is going to feel less like THIS and more like THIS

Who are you?  I really must know.

Good links.

 

The combat is a lot like GW1 and that hasn't been a genre changer.  Some people like traditional roles and I don't see that going away anytime soon and I certainly don't see GW2 as being the catalyst that provokes the paradigm shift.  While this sort of combat design solves some problems with traditional mmo combat it also brings in other annoying aspects.  It's not the magic pill.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1058

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

4/10/12 1:35:51 PM#50
Originally posted by Loser60

It doesn't really, there is that water-support rain for elementalist as far as I remember and some other spiffy stuff. And, well, the mobs don't stay on one target, they tend to jump from target to target, which renders the tank mostly useless.

Engineer Skills :

Utility - Healing Turret,  Applies regenration to nearby allies. Reviving Burst : Overcharges your turret providing increased healing and resurrecting nearby allies.

Utility - Med Kit : Drops Banadges which provide a little healing, Antidote - Effects remover.

 

Weapon Kits : Elixer Gun : Elixer Spray - Poisons enemies, removes conditions from allies. Super Elixer : Creates a healing area as well as heals allies on impact. Utility - Healing Mist -- Add a regeneration effect to your allies.

Ult : Supply Drop

 

Elementalist Skills :

Water Blast : Small Heal - Spamable.

Geyser : Aoe heal

Healing Rain : Regen and condition Remover

Cone of Cold : Cone heal/damage

Cleansing Wave : Heal and Condition remover

Water Trident : Heal / Damage

 

----

Granted not one character will have access to all of these abilities at once, But there is still a significant enough amount of heals to support a party member loading as a Healer/Support.

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1058

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

4/10/12 1:38:30 PM#51
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Redemp

 Really?

REALLY?

Why, oh why , is there continual emphasis on the "we don't have a trinity" aspect of this game?

 For those who are burying their heads in the sand....  THERE IS A TRINITY. You will still have healers, you will still have tanks, and you will still have Dps. They have changed the system so some extent but it is alive and well. What Guild Wars 2 trinity doesn't have : Whack-a-mole heals, Taunts. What it does have : Single Target Heals, Rescues, Group heals, AoE Heals, Regens- HoT's ( Which have always been stronger then flat heals in Guild Wars, Damage mitigation abilities, shields, reflects.

For the love of everything that is holy in Mmo's stop confusing the playerbase by stating Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a trinity. It absolutely does, its changed ... but its still present.

-- Yes I have pre-purchased ,  Yes I'm looking forward to the game. Yes I will running a pvp team as a Healer/support.

You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.

 I think you can, I think the trinity system as its core is having someone in those positions. If you have someone healing damage, someone tanking damage and someone doing the damage  the trinity is fullfilled. It really doesn't matter how many people can do those roles, how unique the system is to fullfil those roles, or that there isn't whack-a-mole heals or taunts ... its still a Trinity.

 

The only reason people are raving about the statement " We don't have a Trinity"  is because its giving them this unrealistic perspective that competitive groups won't need someone fullfilling the standard roles. Competitive teams will absolutely always have someone filling the Tank and Healer roles, theres just no way around it with the current skills in the game. The hype is setting alot of people up for a fall when the game goes live, they are going to run into content where they absolutely need a few heals and condition removers and/or someone to mitigate significant burst. If they would simply state that they are attempting to change up the typical trinity, to make it more flexible I would be on board with the rest of the team. Instead they are implying the Trinity doesn't exsist at all .... people will be upset when they learn it does.

 

  Arcona

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/04
Posts: 1192

4/10/12 1:42:20 PM#52

its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

4/10/12 1:43:52 PM#53
Originally posted by Redemp
Originally posted by BadSpock

You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.

 I think you can, I think the trinity system as its core is having someone in those positions. If you have someone healing damage, someone tanking damage and someone doing the damage  the trinity is fullfilled. It really doesn't matter how many people can do those roles, how unique the system is to fullfil those roles, or that there isn't whack-a-mole heals or taunts ... its still a Trinity.

You really are splitting hairs here to try and make your point.

Just because people CAN throw out a heal or use a skill to reduce damage doesn't make them a healer or a tank.

Without dedicated roles, there is no Trinity - there are just skills... and situations where using those skills would make sense / probably be a good idea.

Taking damage? Roll out of the way or use a defensive skill. Then maybe heal yourself.

Someone else taking damage? Maybe use a healing ability to help out, then maybe roll towards the mob and try and get it to start attacking you instead.

etc. etc.

GW2 is a system of opportunity cost.

You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1058

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

4/10/12 1:44:18 PM#54
Originally posted by Arcona

its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.

I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.

 

  Loser60

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/10
Posts: 171

I beg your pardon.

4/10/12 1:45:24 PM#55
Originally posted by Redemp
Originally posted by Loser60

It doesn't really, there is that water-support rain for elementalist as far as I remember and some other spiffy stuff. And, well, the mobs don't stay on one target, they tend to jump from target to target, which renders the tank mostly useless.

Engineer Skills :

Utility - Healing Turret,  Applies regenration to nearby allies. Reviving Burst : Overcharges your turret providing increased healing and resurrecting nearby allies.

Utility - Med Kit : Drops Banadges which provide a little healing, Antidote - Effects remover.

 

Weapon Kits : Elixer Gun : Elixer Spray - Poisons enemies, removes conditions from allies. Super Elixer : Creates a healing area as well as heals allies on impact. Utility - Healing Mist -- Add a regeneration effect to your allies.

Ult : Supply Drop

 

Elementalist Skills :

Water Blast : Small Heal - Spamable.

Geyser : Aoe heal

Healing Rain : Regen and condition Remover

Cone of Cold : Cone heal/damage

Cleansing Wave : Heal and Condition remover

Water Trident : Heal / Damage

 

----

Granted not one character will have access to all of these abilities at once, But there is still a significant enough amount of heals to support a party member loading as a Healer/Support.

Hm, I did not know, thanks for correcting me. The mobs hit quite hard in dungeons though, so I don't think it's gonna do that much.

  User Deleted
4/10/12 1:46:06 PM#56

A moment of silence please and good riddance to the old ways. 

 

A moment of silence - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pUZOPh817A&feature=related 

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

4/10/12 1:46:33 PM#57
Originally posted by Redemp
Originally posted by Arcona

its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.

I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.

THAT MAKES IT NOT A TRINITY lol

If everyone is a hybrid, a hybrid who may or may not be a little better at one thing or another, they are still hyrbid and if everyone is a hybrid then there is no Trinity.

Holy Trinity in MMORPG terminology means - dedicated roles.

There are no dedicated roles.

Only skills... it's all opportunity cost and timing / cooldown management.

No dedicated roles = no trinity.

It is as simple as that.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1058

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

4/10/12 1:48:37 PM#58
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Redemp
Originally posted by BadSpock

You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.

 I think you can, I think the trinity system as its core is having someone in those positions. If you have someone healing damage, someone tanking damage and someone doing the damage  the trinity is fullfilled. It really doesn't matter how many people can do those roles, how unique the system is to fullfil those roles, or that there isn't whack-a-mole heals or taunts ... its still a Trinity.

You really are splitting hairs here to try and make your point.

Just because people CAN throw out a heal or use a skill to reduce damage doesn't make them a healer or a tank.

Without dedicated roles, there is no Trinity - there are just skills... and situations where using those skills would make sense / probably be a good idea.

Taking damage? Roll out of the way or use a defensive skill. Then maybe heal yourself.

Someone else taking damage? Maybe use a healing ability to help out, then maybe roll towards the mob and try and get it to start attacking you instead.

etc. etc.

GW2 is a system of opportunity cost.

You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.

  I'm not trying to split hairs Spock ... its comes down to a competitive level, teams will be assigning roles to their players. Those roles will be based on their classes , and what that class can do well. I will be playing an Engineer,  thus I will be playing a Healer / Support role. I will be doing more than simply removing conditions and healing, I will be throwing damage as well as controling. That doesn't change the fact that my role in a competitive team will be a Healer / Support. That is what my team will rely on me for, in like manner so will they rely on Seige our player who will be Tanking. Just because he's mitigating damage, tanking ,  doesn't mean he won't have other functions to perform.

When certain classes skills are setup in such a manner where they have exclusivity on role defining abilities .. I.E Healing and Tanking ,  those classes WILL be performing those roles.

 

  jiveturkey12

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/04
Posts: 1284

4/10/12 1:51:58 PM#59
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Redemp
Originally posted by Arcona

its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.

I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.

THAT MAKES IT NOT A TRINITY lol

If everyone is a hybrid, a hybrid who may or may not be a little better at one thing or another, they are still hyrbid and if everyone is a hybrid then there is no Trinity.

Holy Trinity in MMORPG terminology means - dedicated roles.

There are no dedicated roles.

Only skills... it's all opportunity cost and timing / cooldown management.

No dedicated roles = no trinity.

It is as simple as that.

+1 for Logic

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1058

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

4/10/12 1:52:56 PM#60
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Redemp
Originally posted by Arcona

its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.

I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.

THAT MAKES IT NOT A TRINITY lol

If everyone is a hybrid, a hybrid who may or may not be a little better at one thing or another, they are still hyrbid and if everyone is a hybrid then there is no Trinity.

Holy Trinity in MMORPG terminology means - dedicated roles.

There are no dedicated roles.

Only skills... it's all opportunity cost and timing / cooldown management.

No dedicated roles = no trinity.

It is as simple as that.

 Flexibility doesn't negate the trinity ...  it doesn't matter how the Healer and Tanking roles in a trinity are worked into a system. Those roles simply exsisting means the Trinity is alive and well. I've alread established that Healers won't be only healing, and Tanks won't only be mitigating damage. There still will always be someone performing the roles of a healer and tank never the less. Dedicated Roles can simply be predetermined roles for your teams players ... just because the Healing classes can also control or do damage doesn't mean that they can't be a healer.

To me its very simple .... If you have someone tanking damage, healing damage, and doing the damage you have a Trinity system. It doesn't matter how unique it is .... its stil fullfilling the nessecary componets of the Trinity.

 

To further my point : Your implying that because there is not a  Tank ,  that does nothing but tank ... always is a tank ; That there is not a healer who only heals, never does anything but heal ....  That there is no Trinity?

 

 

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