I would like to ask the wider gaming community a question I often ask myself and firends, show me a game thats free to play that is not Pay to Win.
 
The truth is that while I and my friends can name a few that do an ok job at it, I and they cant think of any free to play mmo's that are not ultimately pay to win.

So maybe you lot could lend a hand here, and offer up some suggestions of mmo's that are labelled Free to Play, that are not Pay to Win.

My personally opinion is that F2P should be abolished as a label and it should be replaced with P2W, at least that way people will know without doubt what their getting when they invest time in a game.

LotRO and DDO are two solid games that I would not sconsider P2W.

Imho, Turbine model is closest to B2P than F2P, just with a great disguised trial. For me, the basis of F2P is that all  zone/instance content is available for free but the "conveniencies" are for sale. Those conveniencies can go from fluffy stuff like costumes to gear which goes into the P2W domain.

From what I see, if you want a F2P not P2W go for B2P or go for a game where fluffy stuff matters a lot, so its sales are enough revenues for the company.

If there's one of these posts, there's a million on this site alone. I've pretty much lost any love for this payment model myself, but seriously, the two terms aren't even mutually exclusive.

In the last year ive tried alot of F2P mmo's to learn what they all are and many have itemshops and sell stuff thats P2W but ive not spent one dime on all of them but it also prefend me from PvP in those games i just pve untill i had to quit becouse i needed buy stuff iff i realy wanne advanced in the game then i quit.

DDO is PW2 item shop dont offer only fluff.

Ive not seen any game thats truly free 2 play even games like lineage2 that claim truly free 2 play are not you can buy stuff in item shops thats P2W.

But offcorse ive not play them all so i can't say witch ones are truly F2P maybe Ryzom but not sure about that one eather.

Originally posted by Classicstar

In the last year ive tried alot of F2P mmo's to learn what they all are and many have itemshops and sell stuff thats P2W but ive not spent one dime on all of them but it also prefend me from PvP in those games i just pve untill i had to quit becouse i needed buy stuff iff i realy wanne advanced in the game then i quit.

DDO is PW2 item shop dont offer only fluff.

Ive not seen any game thats truly free 2 play even games like lineage2 that claim truly free 2 play are not you can buy stuff in item shops thats P2W.

But offcorse ive not play them all so i can't say witch ones are truly F2P maybe Ryzom but not sure about that one eather.

Thats my experiance as well, My thing is that I do buy stuff, but then after a while I notice how much and how much easier things are when I do that it really winds me up to the point I have to quit the game, World of Tanks is a cracking PVP game and I spent a fair bit of cash on it, but you cant compeete without forking over money for gold shells.

Spiral Knights is another good game although different genre, but it really punishes you early on if you dont pay for more gas. I have yet to find a game with an item mall that does not sell game changing items, there are a lot of games that claim free to play, and claim their not pay to win, but everyone I have looked at and played has turned out to be just that.

Guild Wars 2 will be the same sadly.

I think after all the free to play games I have played, and all the money I feel I have wasted, I will never play another free to play mmo, it's subscription or nothing for me, I am sick of the whole market right now, and cant wait for diablo 3 which I feel will bring a nice breath of fresh air to my gaming experiance, its not an MMO, but it will do until Archeage, I only hope that does not go F2P.

depends on definition of pay2win

some players call experience potions pay2win but i dont

for me, pay2win is when you can buy non-fluff gear

i've never played any game that i couldn't recieve large sums of gold and even max level characters with complete gear sets for money.

i knew people buying epic gear and max level characters as far back as everquest 1.

your search could extend far beyond free to play games and still turn up fruitless.

Originally posted by Nadia

depends on definition of pay2win

some players call experience potions pay2win but i dont

 

for me, pay2win is when you can buy non-fluff gear

This. But then we need another definition of "fluff".

LOTRO is one of the few truly F2P MMOs out there today. By F2P I mean you don't have to spend a dime to level to the cap or get a mount or buy a house or any of the cool things LOTRO makes available to players. Things even their subscription players need to buy, like expansions, can all be purchased using the in-game store currency that can be earned playing the game.

Which leads us to a definition of "fluff". Is a mount "fluff"? Is a house "fluff"? Is having auction house access "fluff"? Is buying reputation accelerators "fluff"? How about stat boosts? Whoops, I think we just might have crossed a line there...

I have a couple friends who subscribe to the game and who are also players that want the very best armor, weapons, dps and stats they can get. These folks set aside another $20 or so every month to purchase in-game store currency so they can acquire things like stat tomes. Does the ability to do this suddenly make LOTRO P2W? I dunno, since I haven't spent a dime since I subscribed...

Thats the big problem there. People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. It has never meant xp potions or time-saving items. And it never will, not even with people on this site trying to force it to. 

People have been buying and selling max level characters and uber-loot drops since the beginning. Name a sub game and i guarantee you can find a toon for sale on eBay. But even that is not Pay2Win. In the end, they skip all the content, but they are still only as powerful as someone who has actually played. 

PAY2WIN is only something that takes you ABOVE what is normally reachable in a game. Artificial stat increases, new areas with better gear/loot, or temporary buffs/invulnerability. If its something that a nonpaying player couldnt do or get, then its pay2win.

PAY2WIN is NOT convenience items that save time, offer better chances to get something thats already obtainable without, skipping content, or appearance/cosmetic items. If you cant be better or reach higher than a nonpaying player, it is not Pay2Win.

So there it is, adjust your definition to that, and i think your gaming experiences will be alot better. There are still plenty of P2W games like anything ever done by PWE or Aeria, but theres also alot more out there that doesnt restrict your gameplay just because you dont pay them.

Originally posted by Jaedor

I have a couple friends who subscribe to the game and who are also players that want the very best armor, weapons, dps and stats they can get. These folks set aside another $20 or so every month to purchase in-game store currency so they can acquire things like stat tomes. Does the ability to do this suddenly make LOTRO P2W? I dunno, since I haven't spent a dime since I subscribed...

i could say the same about EQ2

in EQ2, ive personally leveled to 90 as a free account without spending any money

but thats not how a game is judged for pay2win

games are judged if a player can just spend cash to get ahead despite other methods available to players

the LOTRO store is worse than EQ2 for pay2win

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?347917-LOTRO-Store-Full-Price-List

in the LOTRO store you can buy tradeskill supplies and recipes, rez items

the EQ2 store just has experience potions, appearance gear and mounts

- there are other aspects of EQ2 that nickel and dime you, but its not pay to win

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Jaedor

I have a couple friends who subscribe to the game and who are also players that want the very best armor, weapons, dps and stats they can get. These folks set aside another $20 or so every month to purchase in-game store currency so they can acquire things like stat tomes. Does the ability to do this suddenly make LOTRO P2W? I dunno, since I haven't spent a dime since I subscribed...

i could say the same about EQ2

in EQ2, ive personally leveled to 90 as a free account without spending any money

 

but thats not how a game is judged for pay2win

games are judged if a player can just spend cash to get ahead despite other methods available to players

 

the LOTRO store is worse than EQ2 for pay2win

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?347917-LOTRO-Store-Full-Price-List

in the LOTRO store you can buy tradeskill supplies and recipes, rez items

 

the EQ2 store just has experience potions, appearance gear and mounts

- there are other aspects of EQ2 that nickel and dime you, but its not pay to win

Completely disagree here. In EQ2 you cannot use master skills which makes you inferior to everyone else unless you pay. EQ2 truly is P2W in my opinion.

Unless you subscribe. Which you can of course do, but that removes the free part from the equation.

in EQ2, you dont need master skills to level to 90

playing at end game is a different story

most players subscribe if they are going to play the "level-capped" game for many mmos

Originally posted by aslan132

Thats the big problem there. People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. It has never meant xp potions or time-saving items. And it never will, not even with people on this site trying to force it to. 

People have been buying and selling max level characters and uber-loot drops since the beginning. Name a sub game and i guarantee you can find a toon for sale on eBay. But even that is not Pay2Win. In the end, they skip all the content, but they are still only as powerful as someone who has actually played. 

PAY2WIN is only something that takes you ABOVE what is normally reachable in a game. Artificial stat increases, new areas with better gear/loot, or temporary buffs/invulnerability. If its something that a nonpaying player couldnt do or get, then its pay2win.

PAY2WIN is NOT convenience items that save time, offer better chances to get something thats already obtainable without, skipping content, or appearance/cosmetic items. If you cant be better or reach higher than a nonpaying player, it is not Pay2Win.

So there it is, adjust your definition to that, and i think your gaming experiences will be alot better. There are still plenty of P2W games like anything ever done by PWE or Aeria, but theres also alot more out there that doesnt restrict your gameplay just because you dont pay them.

Pretty much agree entirely, with the caveat that just because a non-payer CAN reach/obtain something, doesn't mean the time required is remotely sane or feasible. RNG-based systems tend to be guilty of this - offering ludicrously low odds that cash shop items allow you to bypass has a tendency to quickly encroach into P2W territory.

Originally posted by Nadia

in EQ2, you dont need master skills to level to 90

 

playing at end game is a different story

most players subscribe if they are going to play the "level-capped" game for many mmos

I think most players would consider end-game content a very large part of the game. To say that EQ2 isn't pay to win because it isn't pay to win till end game seems like a really narrow definition of pay to win.

Originally posted by colddog04

I think most players would consider end-game content a very large part of the game. To say that EQ2 isn't pay to win because it isn't pay to win till end game seems like a really narrow definition of pay to win.

theres nothing thats pay to win about EQ2 beyond experience potions

- EQ2 is still essentially a subscriber game for anyone who wants to play endgame

you've overlooked LOTRO has a pay to win store, no better than other stores

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?347917-LOTRO-Store-Full-Price-List

Really I think what bothers people is they want the entire game for free, everything available. If the companies did that how would they make any money at all? One way or another they're going to try and get folks to spend money. I think that's why there are some p2w elements that pop up in a lot of them. They need that hook to get money. If they only sold cosmetics but gave away everything else equally they wouldn't make much at all. Sorry but nobody rides for free.....completely.

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by colddog04

I think most players would consider end-game content a very large part of the game. To say that EQ2 isn't pay to win because it isn't pay to win till end game seems like a really narrow definition of pay to win.

theres nothing thats pay to win about EQ2 beyond experience potions

- EQ2 is still essentially a subcriber game for anyone who wants to play endgame

 

you've overlooked LOTRO has a pay to win store, no better than other stores

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?347917-LOTRO-Store-Full-Price-List

There is a very important difference between the two systems. In LotRO you can buy store items through points that you earn in game. In EQ2, the only way you can buy things is by spending money.

I would also be interested in seeing what you think is speciically pay to win in the LotRO shop. I haven't played for about a year or so, but at least back then, it did not ahve a pay to win feel at all to me.

all tradeskill items in LOTRO store are pay to win in my eyes

- with cash you can buy tradeskill materials and recipes, to make gear  (or sell instead)

the Resurrection items are also pay to win to me