Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Risk. Publishers churn out what they feel there's little risk to losing money in. That means the same crap that has been successful in the past.

We are ALL focused much too strongly on risk avoidance.

See that dude in the "can't buy the game for six months, I've been burned before" thread?

Same disease that the devs have caught.

Last time I checked, a game box still was not a huge monetary investment (for anyone who had a job, anyway, maybe not for teens).  The risk avoidance focus is just out of proportion with the expense.

You know how most millionaires became millionaires?

They didn't buy every piece of shit that came along just because they could.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Risk. Publishers churn out what they feel there's little risk to losing money in. That means the same crap that has been successful in the past.

We are ALL focused much too strongly on risk avoidance.

See that dude in the "can't buy the game for six months, I've been burned before" thread?

Same disease that the devs have caught.

Last time I checked, a game box still was not a huge monetary investment (for anyone who had a job, anyway, maybe not for teens).  The risk avoidance focus is just out of proportion with the expense.

I definitely dont make blind pre-order purchases on MMOs anymore. In fact, I'll typically wait a month to see what others who have played an MMO think of it before deciding whether to buy at all.

I work. My job doesn't pay as well as I'd like, however, so even working full time a $60 game is a good chunk out of my budget. I like to think that with the economy the way it is I'm lucky to have work at all, but still, I dont feel any game with a subscription should cost $60 for the box.

Publishers are much more capable of taking a risk than most individuals, however. For a publisher its typically a difference of profiting big, and only profiting a little. For an individual, its a pure loss if you pay for a game you happen to dislike. On the consumer end, being wary of risk is much more understandable.

Originally posted by eyeswideopen

You know how most millionaires became millionaires?

They didn't buy every piece of shit that came along just because they could.

OTOH, they did not resent making a minor monetery mistake for the duration of their lives, and forever fear they might possibly make another some day, either.

Out of proportion.

Originally posted by flclimax

Originally posted by melangel

Originally posted by flclimax

LMFAO...the comments remind me how everyone thought SWTOR was going to be different. hell, it has ALL of the problems of those other games all rolled into one.

though I only tried it for the beta weekend, I think SWTOR is better then the 3 I beta tested long term. If SWTOR were single player I'd own it and be playing it :P I can't say the same for the others.

nice that you like it, and i won't knock you for your opinon...

 

but let's get into facts for a second:

- sterile, soulless game world overall

- graphically uninspired and unimpressive

- buggy as all hell

- launched before it was done

- full of fed ex quests

- boring combat

- imbalanced

except a lot  of that is also opinion. 

And it has bugs but is not "buggy as hell".

AoC was buggy as hell at launch and so was warhammer.

SWToR has some bugs here and there but the only bugs I can recall are those bugs that people complained about for Ilum.

As far as the discussion goes, as it has already been stated, these games take years to make and I don't believe develpoment can turn on a dime, especially when millions are on the line. It's a gradual change that players will see.

Originally posted by Gorwe
"If people do not remember mistakes that have Already been made, they are bound to repeat them"-saying goes something Like that. Let's hope that future is brighter than bleak past so that we can forget it. Cheers GW2/ArcheAge! ;)

My thougth is that mmo gamers want to recapture that bit of their past when these games were magical, full of promise  and virutally unknown.

When I tried out my first mmo (Lineage 2) I had preconceptions that were not fulfilled but then realized that I should go with the flow and just fing out what the game was about.

Still, it was all unknowable as I didn't know what was going to be over the next ridge.

there were surpises to be found and thing to discover. Howeer, as I waited for certain things to change or develop I realized over time that none of them would. That developement on that game was haphhazard and uninspired.

Now having played many, many more of these games I have realized that developement for them goes to weird places and the initial work/inspiration that they put in at launch never seems to be captured throughout their development cycle.

So, I leanred to temper my expectations.

Many of the people here are from old school games and they want new versions of their old school games. Which are not being made.

People don't want things to change, they want them to be where they were when they started. they just want newer versions. Maybe with some of the grindy things taken away. And the only game that seems to come close to this is Archeage. Let's see how that fares. if it does well maye developers will take notice.

Though it will take years to come about.

Originally posted by Sovrath

So, I leanred to temper my expectations.

Many of the people here are from old school games and they want new versions of their old school games. Which are not being made.

People don't want things to change, they want them to be where they were when they started. they just want newer versions. Maybe with some of the grindy things taken away. And the only game that seems to come close to this is Archeage. Let's see how that fares. if it does well maye developers will take notice.

Though it will take years to come about.

Damn, you're like some zen master. So much food for deep thought here.

Probably your post and wise words will get snowed under quickly and ignored by the avalanche of repetitive rants and complaining that usually clogs all threads.

Originally posted by Axehilt

If you focus on the good elements which make each game unique and interesting, you will enjoy games.

If you ignore the good elements and say "but the rest of the game wasn't equally amazing", you may never enjoy another game.

It's like life: have a bad attitude and everything about your life will seem like shit.  Have a good attitude, and you're going to enjoy the awesome things in life and brush off or ignore the bad things.

I always keep a positive attitude. I believe this is exactly why I am still able to read those forums, and still be an MMO fan -  even if I only played 4 MMOs ever.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Many of the people here are from old school games and they want new versions of their old school games. Which are not being made.

People don't want things to change, they want them to be where they were when they started. they just want newer versions. Maybe with some of the grindy things taken away. And the only game that seems to come close to this is Archeage. Let's see how that fares. if it does well maye developers will take notice.

Though it will take years to come about.

Maybe Sovrath. I'm not sure I really want that though. I guess when I say they don't make games like they used to, it's more from the point that so many more games are now released that seem much of a muchness so to speak. Some look good to me but not particularly inspiring perhaps. Archeage looks interesting for it's sandbox elements but we'll see. I used to be a fan of the Choose your Own Adventure style books too though I admit I used to cheat if I died too soon :P. I like choice and it would be nice to find it without having multiple games on the go. I'm a one game at a time person.

Originally posted by Axehilt

If you focus on the good elements which make each game unique and interesting, you will enjoy games.

If you ignore the good elements and say "but the rest of the game wasn't equally amazing", you may never enjoy another game.

It's like life: have a bad attitude and everything about your life will seem like shit.  Have a good attitude, and you're going to enjoy the awesome things in life and brush off or ignore the bad things.

Idealism is nice, but realistically things dont work quite this way. Ignoring problems tends to only make them worse. Remaining positive certainly helps you handle them but they're there, and they dont go away just by having happy thoughts.

The same goes with MMOs. If there are features you dont like in a game, you don't ignore them, you either find a game with the fewest negatives for your tastes, or if there isn't one, you make suggestions to the developers about the game that does suit you best. If enough people in the game agree with those suggestions, its possible things may change for the better.

Nothing ever improves from sitting back and doing nothing with a smile on your face.

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Originally posted by Sovrath

So, I leanred to temper my expectations.

Many of the people here are from old school games and they want new versions of their old school games. Which are not being made.

People don't want things to change, they want them to be where they were when they started. they just want newer versions. Maybe with some of the grindy things taken away. And the only game that seems to come close to this is Archeage. Let's see how that fares. if it does well maye developers will take notice.

Though it will take years to come about.

Damn, you're like some zen master. So much food for deep thought here.

Probably your post and wise words will get snowed under quickly and ignored by the avalanche of repetitive rants and complaining that usually clogs all threads.

No way, I find the rational approach to communication refreshing.

I'd agree, I am looking for something that incorporates features from older games.  Possibly, I'd love to see a new "sequel" to an older game that would allow newcomers to join in and be on the same footing as veterans of the original title.

I'm guessing that EQ 2 attempted to do this, but I was already into World of Warcraft by then, and I didn't give EQ 2 a chance.

I was hoping this would be the case for Ultima X, but sadly it was cancelled.

I don't think that the new generation of MMO players necessarily want a simplistic game, but I think some MMOs try to cater to too many audiences at once, it confuses the player base, and sets unreasonable expectations that will never be fulfilled.  I think WoW did this by trying to be too many things to too many people, and shot themselves in the foot.

The Blizzard brand has amazing staying power in many regions, thanks to the Diablo and Starcraft franchises, as well as the early success of World of Warcraft. 

This might be creating the terrible trend we're seeing now, as other game companies try to clone WoW, realizing its mass appeal, and trying to capture those Facebook browser based game fans with a cheap knockoff.

Hopefully some game developers are paying attention to what people are saying, and we start seeing some true innovation in ideas and features.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Idealism is nice, but realistically things dont work quite this way. Ignoring problems tends to only make them worse. Remaining positive certainly helps you handle them but they're there, and they dont go away just by having happy thoughts.

Nothing ever improves from sitting back and doing nothing with a smile on your face.

The problem seems to be an inability to separate the emotions from the disappointment.

The hate some people spawn over what is essentially a minor monetary loss...and since when is wishing a developer (or other gamers) personal harm an appropriate response?

Back around to the difference between well-expressed (or otherwise) criticism...always going to come back to that one.

Originally posted by BartDaCat

I'm guessing that EQ 2 attempted to do this, but I was already into World of Warcraft by then, and I didn't give EQ 2 a chance.

Actually EQ2 was released first.  By....five days, I think?  EQ2's problem was what sony was doing to their own player base at the time.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by BartDaCat

I'm guessing that EQ 2 attempted to do this, but I was already into World of Warcraft by then, and I didn't give EQ 2 a chance.

Actually EQ2 was released first.  By....five days, I think?

My partner wrote Blizzard and asked if I could get into the WoW closed beta as an Anniversary gift.  The CSR he dealt with, a guy by the name of Scott Sweet (thank you Scott, wherever you are!) made it possible.

In part due to Scott's awesome gesture, I was hooked, so there was no chance of swapping to EQ 2 at that point.

Its because of the Nobbots that pre order every single MMO that comes on the market that we will never get a decent MMO again.Ever,never,no chance,forget it,lame pussy handholding MMO one after the other until the end of time.

EDIT: Remind me to pre PURCHASE 7 copies of GW2 tomorrow...

Originally posted by rojo6934

my favourite part of the video was 2:48.

"IF we can wait for MMOs to be good, you can wait for us to pay"

when people start applying this to their mmo lives, all these bad mmos will start fading away and a new breed of good mmos will arise. Thats for sure.

Agreed. As long as people keep preordering and subscribing to  it, they'll keep making it.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Agreed. As long as people keep preordering and subscribing to  it, they'll keep making it.

And as long as people are individuals, they will like different products. Frustrating.

Originally posted by Fangrim

Its because of the Nobbots that pre order every single MMO that comes on the market that we will never get a decent MMO again.Ever,never,no chance,forget it,lame pussy handholding MMO one after the other until the end of time.

EDIT: Remind me to pre PURCHASE 7 copies of GW2 tomorrow...

But you are going to find this with everything in life.

We can, right now, compile a list of things that "should" be one wya if it wasn't for "those meddling kids".

But this has been going on for, well, since humans starting looking at the majority.

I guarantee that right now I could go into your house and look around and see something that some pickly, elite group of peoplewill see as banal. pedestrian and claim that if it wasn't for your support of this "thing" then things would be better.

I just find that instead of blaming outside sources for my dissatisfaction that it's easier to just follow the idea to adopt the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the ability to chagne the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

Thats' actually taken from another source but I think it's wise nevertheless.

Look, I used to be an angry person when I was young but I found that really didnt' work as I was always angry at everyone else but me.

Life experience and some introspection has taught me that sometimes you just have to let go.

if someday the game of my dreams comes out I'll be there. Until then I will just wait patiently and if there isn't anything I want to play then I'll do something else.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by Vercinorix

@ OP: Success breeds imitation, not innovation. While I agree that continuing to buy MMO games in a forlorn hope that 'maybe this one will be different' is a bad idea, if people stopped buying MMOs in general the most likely fate is the death (or extreme marginalization) of the genre (Flight sims anyone?), not a rebirth into glory.

Science fiction gave us a glimpse of the holy grail of MMO experiences decades ago via the Cyberpunk and related subgenre stories, but we're probably just as far away from that type of MMO becoming a reality as it has taken for the 'flying car for every household' futurism of the 50's.

The things I rarely see in gripe threads like this are specific detailed examples of how to improve new games. Things like 'lackluster worlds and/or graphics, repetetive combat' sound like they mean something but really don't tell a developer what you want to see instead. 

If you want change, take the time to think about what you want to see done differently and say exactly what you want, in excruciating unambiguous detail.

HIstorically and financially the highlighted text is false.

Success breeds innovation because competition fosters it.

Recent case is iphone / Ipad / iPod.

 

It is an acceptable fact in the business/financial  world that 'everybody is greedy, therefore innovation happens only if company can make money'.

Actually the highlighted text is quite true, both historically and financially. Although I should have clarified it and been more specific: "Success breeds imitation and incremental innovation, not revolution."

Revolutionary games are few and far between, but when they succeed they spawn a genre.

As a couple of examples: all modern FPS games are incremental advancements of the original Castle Wolfenstein --> DOOM line. How many coin-op arcade games were Space Invaders clones? How many clones of Tetris are floating around?

vs. How many times do you see a Simcity or Spore come onto the scene?

Even though the root of MMOs came from MUDs, the defining model for the industry at present has been Everquest... a never ending grind.

The problem for developers seeking to innovate and produce the next big smash hit is figuring out what the mass computer gaming audience would really like, then convincing the people with money to back them. Like it or not, folks like us on these boards represent the tiny minority of gamers that are vocal: we are a few thousand among millions. Even then, we can't agree on what we want.

Let us look at this from the investor's point of view. The questions that are asked are along the lines of: What is the size of the market? Is this product going to compete for existing market share or does it have the potential to expand the size of the market? What is the likely lifespan of the product? What will the costs be? How much of a return on investment will there be, and when?

Computer games take a lot more money to make these days, and the people who have that money are still mostly from generations that do not understand gaming and gamers. Trying to find backing for a top flight revolutionary game is extraordinarily difficult as a result. We will probably have to wait until there are enough venture capitalists around who are also gamers for that to happen. 

Originally posted by Tardcore

Oh I see the sense in the idea that those who prepare themselves for dissapointment have a a much better chance of actually being dissapointed. But in the last few years slew (I saw spew) of MMOs, in some cases even the most staunch optimists have ended up getting kicked in the bollocks by bad game design.

Nobody's saying all games are always amazing.

It's when people say all MMORPGs are trash (instead of the expected "80% of everything is crap") that peoples' opinions become invalid on account of having an impossibly negative attitude.