Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by dontadow

There's no killing ten rats

Not too sure about that. In the vids so far I've seen a huge number of Dynamic Event sub-objectives which seemed just as chore-like as in standard questing, up to and including escorting slow moving npc's along predetermined paths between a predetermined (and actually numbered) amount of objectives with predetermined npc spawn encounters. Etc.

i.e. The point this picture tries to bring across:

I think it is very safe (and wise) to assume that while the way questing is packaged, the way they are distributed and sometimes hidden in the world and the way you pick them up in GW2 might be novel, the actual tasks the DE's consist off won't be so revolutionary at all in most cases.

 

There are still kill quests, regardless of how you dress it up. If people are expecting something radically different then they will be disappointed, the game is still an RPG.

That being said, the picture you linked refers more to the 'heart events' rather than the 'dynamic events'. Heart events are closer to traditional quests, and are more common in low level areas but get less and less frequent as you level up, giving way for more dynamic events. The heart quests also have a variety of things to do like putting out fires, throwing snowballs at kids, feeding animals, helping gather apples etc. Not mind blowing, but still a nice diversity.

Dynamic events usually don't have counters showing how many you have killed, sometimes they have bars showing the remaining strength of a structure you are defending or whatever, but the event just keeps going until there are no more waves of attackers.

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by dontadow

*cut*

*cut*

Well, it kinda goes back to the conundrum of event-based games. There's only so many types of events you can do, the best you can do is to try and dress them up to seem more interesting / dynamic. However, you will always either be killing something, collecting something, running something, or protecting something.

That said, I believe this was one of TotalBiscuit's criticisms on the game. Some of the DEs just have static 'kill X or collect Y' amount of whatever. It would be better if they could introduce a more random element to these events, or at the very least 'hide' the counter, so we don't know exactly how many of X or Y we are grabbing.

Yup, I saw that too. It was one of the rare points of constructive criticism on the game from "press" in the past weeks and I fully agree with him. They should really try to make event stages like that feel less predetermined.

+ 1

and 

AFAIK 

 

Some (all?) events 'reset' way too quickly.

They should be slowed down and by alot imo.

 

Events impact on world should be much much longer.

That's something they probably only can do when the game is live. It's a careful balance. If the events reset to quickly, players will feel that their efforts have no impact on the world. To slow and the players will be disgruntled because they need to wait till the cool stuffs appears. ArenaNet needs reliable statistics before they can tweak those timers. Hopefully all the pre-order testers are enough for reliable numbers, otherwise we will see this fixed in the months after the release.

About the comment of TotalBiscuit, the comment I remember was in his Thief vid. When a combat pet from some NPC dude was killed, he triggered the escort quest to find a new pet. That one listed 'x/5 spots checked', which killed the questing text of the NPC you were escorting, because you already knew when he was going to find his new pet. It would be nice if they can randomize those events up a bit.

The problem with the side kicking up feature is that it creates balancing problems.

Imagine your friend is lvl 80 and you are lvl 2, after the long journey to the lvl area of your lvl 80 friend you are there, with 1 skill.

Now i ask of you good people, how can you balance the DE system . Its either  the only thing you are doing is spamming 1 skill, you get gold medal the same way your friend using all his array of skills gets a gold medal. or  give the guy with 1 skill only bronze medal, but then the guy would say "WTF MAN I DID EVERYTHING I COULD" and since you are suposed to get good rewards acording to your lvl you would actually be gaining less effectively making sidekicking down more effective for the two of you since you would also get gold.

The other issue is that DE are not your own little world. Lets say that for example you got 100 ppl taking one big dragon and 20 of them are low lvls, now even though the game checks everytime if you are doing something i dont think its so advanced that it scales also taking account of the fact that some of the low lvl players may not have all their utility skills or elite skill so sidekicking up also creates a problem in content difficulty scaling since you need a much more advanced system to take into account those factors. You might want to play with your low lvl friends but what about the other 79 ppl there that just want to enjoy the game, you just made the content much harder for them to complete and they are now forced to carry other people.

Also to the people that are claiming now suddenly exp boosts become required, thats a load of BS.

When you were sidekicked up you still needed to lvl to get your skills. Switch weapons is at lvl 5 first uitlity is at lvl 10 2nd is i think at 20, elite at 30 and so on, then it extends to traits. You ALWAYS need to lvl up

You are only scaled it was NOT an auto lvl option.

Ok, I absolutely agree with this news, that there will no be sidekicking up but only down. Its fair enough for me, but then another question comes up, does that mean that the low level players can't participate in higher level bossfights, for example the Shatterer is for 50lvl, if i'm 30 level will I be able to be sidekicked for the event?

Originally posted by vlad013

Ok, I absolutely agree with this news, that there will no be sidekicking up but only down. Its fair enough for me, but then another question comes up, does that mean that the low level players can't participate in higher level bossfights, for example the Shatterer is for 50lvl, if i'm 30 level will I be able to be sidekicked for the event?

You won't even be in the area, so it is kind of irrelevant. Higher level mobs will demolish you.

I'm ok without sidekicking up and hoping they do not.

You already get leveld up to 80 for WvW, and for battleground/warzones (whatever they are called), and higher levels can lower down to you.

If we could sidekick up would there really be a need for levels anymore?

You won't even be in the area, so it is kind of irrelevant. Higher level mobs will demolish you.

Hmmm.. that sounds bad :( . . . But its kind like more fair, because if lets say 25 persons are participating in the bossfight and 10 of them are much lower level, the boss is scaled for 25 person fight, but 10 of them have less skills, hp, stats etc... so then the fight gets much harder and unfair... And also it would be annoying that i'm lets say 50lvl and I've made so long way to get to it, and another player just started playing and we are fighting the same boss... Anyway thanks for your reply and sorry for my poor english

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by dontadow

There's no killing ten rats

Not too sure about that. In the vids so far I've seen a huge number of Dynamic Event sub-objectives which seemed just as chore-like as in standard questing, up to and including escorting slow moving npc's along predetermined paths between a predetermined (and actually numbered) amount of objectives with predetermined npc spawn encounters. Etc.

i.e. The point this picture tries to bring across:

I think it is very safe (and wise) to assume that while the way questing is packaged, the way they are distributed and sometimes hidden in the world and the way you pick them up in GW2 might be novel, the actual tasks the DE's consist off won't be so revolutionary at all in most cases.

Well, it kinda goes back to the conundrum of event-based games. There's only so many types of events you can do, the best you can do is to try and dress them up to seem more interesting / dynamic. However, you will always either be killing something, collecting something, running something, or protecting something.

That said, I believe this was one of TotalBiscuit's criticisms on the game. Some of the DEs just have static 'kill X or collect Y' amount of whatever. It would be better if they could introduce a more random element to these events, or at the very least 'hide' the counter, so we don't know exactly how many of X or Y we are grabbing.

Yup, I saw that too. It was one of the rare points of constructive criticism on the game from "press" in the past weeks and I fully agree with him. They should really try to make event stages like that feel less predetermined.

+ 1

and 

AFAIK 

 

Some (all?) events 'reset' way too quickly.

They should be slowed down and by alot imo.

 

Events impact on world should be much much longer.

For GW2 fans sake I hope it is more persistant than the Rift invasion effects, which just reset after a certain amount of time regardless of what you do.  Dynamic events have yet to be done very well in any game thus far, so Anet has their work cut out to truly innovate there.  Stringing simple kill/gather/fedex/escort quests together might be a baby step in improving dynamic questing, but if that's all it is then I have a feeling many will be very disappointed after a couple weeks...

Taking out content that you promised your fanbase is horrible no matter how hard some people want to spin this, and my very well be a sign of things to come (broken promises, broken hearts)

I prefer the game this way...Even games without levels, their are places you can go that you get smashed, due to not having the skills to be able to do the area....

I am fine with it.  I can wait to do PvE content, till I am leveled.

Originally posted by Monorojo

Taking out content that you promised your fanbase is horrible no matter how hard some people want to spin this, and my very well be a sign of things to come (broken promises, broken hearts)

people can still sidekick up in WvW pvp

http://www.tashadarke.co.uk/2012/04/eufandayqandapt1/

ANET also removed companions from their earlier announced intentions - I saw no problems with that

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Companion

game is not available yet for pre-ordering, these are SMALL changes

Originally posted by Monorojo

Taking out content that you promised your fanbase is horrible no matter how hard some people want to spin this, and my very well be a sign of things to come (broken promises, broken hearts)

 I would call this more a feature, than content, as the content is still there....Features change during closed beta, I challenge anyone to find a mmo that they didn't change in closed beta...

After the last 5 years of mmos, I don't expect a ton from devs....

Originally posted by Monorojo

Taking out content that you promised your fanbase is horrible no matter how hard some people want to spin this, and my very well be a sign of things to come (broken promises, broken hearts)

Have they removed any content? You can go anywhere yu want, but for casual pve you can't level up to the area.  

Originally posted by Monorojo

Taking out content that you promised your fanbase is horrible no matter how hard some people want to spin this, and my very well be a sign of things to come (broken promises, broken hearts)

It's not taking out content. Sidekicking is still in the game, just not in PvE. Beside you are confusing a feature with content. NO content was lose, in some ways content was actually protected because a lot of people would rush through the game via sidekicking up and later complain how there isn't enough content when they got the the appropiate level, even though its their fault for getting sidekick up. 

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Monorojo

Taking out content that you promised your fanbase is horrible no matter how hard some people want to spin this, and my very well be a sign of things to come (broken promises, broken hearts)

people can still sidekick up in WvW pvp

http://www.tashadarke.co.uk/2012/04/eufandayqandapt1/

ANET also removed companions from their earlier announced intentions - I saw no problems with that

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Companion

game is not available yet for pre-ordering, these are SMALL changes

inorite /facepalm @ Monorojo

not to mention that Anet unlike other companies have been nothing but completely open and honest about what they've removed, which means we won't have a launch where the game is completely different then the beta with missing features and combat that isn't as "epic" as they claimed it would be, ahem.

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by dontadow

There's no killing ten rats

Not too sure about that. In the vids so far I've seen a huge number of Dynamic Event sub-objectives which seemed just as chore-like as in standard questing, up to and including escorting slow moving npc's along predetermined paths between a predetermined (and actually numbered) amount of objectives with predetermined npc spawn encounters. Etc.

i.e. The point this picture tries to bring across:

I think it is very safe (and wise) to assume that while the way questing is packaged, the way they are distributed and sometimes hidden in the world and the way you pick them up in GW2 might be novel, the actual tasks the DE's consist off won't be so revolutionary at all in most cases.

 

There are still kill quests, regardless of how you dress it up. If people are expecting something radically different then they will be disappointed, the game is still an RPG.

That being said, the picture you linked refers more to the 'heart events' rather than the 'dynamic events'. Heart events are closer to traditional quests, and are more common in low level areas but get less and less frequent as you level up, giving way for more dynamic events. The heart quests also have a variety of things to do like putting out fires, throwing snowballs at kids, feeding animals, helping gather apples etc. Not mind blowing, but still a nice diversity.

Dynamic events usually don't have counters showing how many you have killed, sometimes they have bars showing the remaining strength of a structure you are defending or whatever, but the event just keeps going until there are no more waves of attackers.

Yes, you are correct, it is a game, and there are objectives.  By this logic all games are the same, nothing changes.

The example is actually a description of dynamic events and Heart Events.  Neither have a counter.  Dynamic events will and can end when the bar of total things done is used up, just like the Heart Events.  The difference is that dynamic events lead to other dynamic events, heart events are fairly static.   

Questing in GW2 means that you quest with others, there is no isolation bubble where everyones selfish and no ones helping everyone else.  It really helps the imerrsion factor when the questi s more important than the individual goals.  

Originally posted by dontadow

*snopages*

Yes, you are correct, it is a game, and there are objectives.  By this logic all games are the same, nothing changes.

The example is actually a description of dynamic events and Heart Events.  Neither have a counter.  Dynamic events will and can end when the bar of total things done is used up, just like the Heart Events.  The difference is that dynamic events lead to other dynamic events, heart events are fairly static.   

Questing in GW2 means that you quest with others, there is no isolation bubble where everyones selfish and no ones helping everyone else.  It really helps the imerrsion factor when the questi s more important than the individual goals.  

Some tasks do: check this vid

For this task he needs to escort a Charr along exactly 5 Devourer nests to find the perfect one. At 17:48 he speaks his mind about these numbered objectives.

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by dontadow

There's no killing ten rats

Not too sure about that. In the vids so far I've seen a huge number of Dynamic Event sub-objectives which seemed just as chore-like as in standard questing, up to and including escorting slow moving npc's along predetermined paths between a predetermined (and actually numbered) amount of objectives with predetermined npc spawn encounters. Etc.

i.e. The point this picture tries to bring across:

I think it is very safe (and wise) to assume that while the way questing is packaged, the way they are distributed and sometimes hidden in the world and the way you pick them up in GW2 might be novel, the actual tasks the DE's consist off won't be so revolutionary at all in most cases.

 

There are still kill quests, regardless of how you dress it up. If people are expecting something radically different then they will be disappointed, the game is still an RPG.

That being said, the picture you linked refers more to the 'heart events' rather than the 'dynamic events'. Heart events are closer to traditional quests, and are more common in low level areas but get less and less frequent as you level up, giving way for more dynamic events. The heart quests also have a variety of things to do like putting out fires, throwing snowballs at kids, feeding animals, helping gather apples etc. Not mind blowing, but still a nice diversity.

Dynamic events usually don't have counters showing how many you have killed, sometimes they have bars showing the remaining strength of a structure you are defending or whatever, but the event just keeps going until there are no more waves of attackers.

Yes, you are correct, it is a game, and there are objectives.  By this logic all games are the same, nothing changes.

The example is actually a description of dynamic events and Heart Events.  Neither have a counter.  Dynamic events will and can end when the bar of total things done is used up, just like the Heart Events.  The difference is that dynamic events lead to other dynamic events, heart events are fairly static.   

Questing in GW2 means that you quest with others, there is no isolation bubble where everyones selfish and no ones helping everyone else.  It really helps the imerrsion factor when the questi s more important than the individual goals.  

The game is, of course, limited by its interface.

However that cartoon is still very misleading.  If you notice they play a nice little trick.  They assume that because you are always picking up 10 apples you are also always put into an environment where the things that attempt to prvent you from getting said apples is always the same.

This is wrong.  There are not always 4 stick figures around the apples in GW2.  Exactly how or what is around the apples will change based on various factors, the largest being who else is helping.

So you have extra inputs into the system, players affects things.  And you get different results in the challenge that attempt to block the goal.

Now it would be cool if in addition to that the number of apples changed randomly or possibly even change whether its appels.  We know from TotalBiscuit that at least one of the events has a stage that is set AND tell you the exact amount.  It may be they are all this way and merely obfuscate that.  We know that some are obfuscated in one way or another.

Still that cartoon is misleading.  It implies the events are exactly as static as most WoW or similar games quests.  This is patently false.

Now if this was Rift there might be a point as Rift's rifts were standard in the waves.  Every wave the same and each wave predicable in its nature.  Only the actual state of the ZONE was affected by players (ie. amount and level of rifts.)

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by Corehaven

Originally posted by DarkPony

Yeah, side kicking down is very nice. You won't outgrow content and become a demi-god when you venture back to lower leveled areas to help others. Even though you'll still have access to more abilities and functionality so we'll have to see about how that will pan out. The same with the stat boosting to level 80 in WvW: the true 80's will probably have a lot more oomph due to many advantages other than gained through level stats. But anyway, that's not what they changed. It's the sidekicking up.

 

Right and I figure thats the way it should be.   I dont want to go play with a higher level in a zone that really in reality should be too dangerous for me.  What just because Im with a friend I get stronger or am somehow more able?  No Im not.  Im a stupid level 14 and I have no business being here. 

 

Meanwhile I dont care how good at kung fu you are.  A wild boar could certainly hurt me, and as for Mr. Kung Fu master over here....same deal.  Oh he may be able to strike some pressure points on the dumb animal or flip out of the way, but until he takes the thing down he's still in mortal danger as much as I am.  Thats the way GW2 works now, and Im all for it. 

 

Yea those 80s will have a ton of skills and that will sure help them, but a threat is a threat.  Whether Im Neo from the Matrix, or Steve Urkel, a guy running at me with a knife is still a guy running at me with a knife.  If Im not paying attention, Im dead.  Even in a level one zone. 

 

All Im saying is I feel this change makes things as they should be.  Or at least smooths things out. 

Sorry mate, I just don't agree. Literary / film example,  by your logic Frodo and the rest of the hobbits would have had to spend most of the series fighting bats, rats, and baby goblins, rather than mixing it up with orcs, trolls and Nazguls.

Now of course an MMO is not a film nor a book, but I see no reason that lower level adventures, with the help of more experienced companions, would have any more issue fighting tougher mobs so long as they didn't get a disproportionate amount of xp and loot. And since players can do EXACTLY this in the Mists at level one, don't tell me A-net has no way to balance this out properly.

So f*cking what if some players will bypass some of the content, its their choice to do so. And I'd be willing to bet quite a few of the PVP oriented players will do exactly this in the Mists anyway.

I thought people were fired up about this game because it was trying to break some of the annoying, or at least stagnant, MMO sterotypes. Why then do you think the best way they can handle this situation is by forcing higher level players to "dumb down" so they can wade through the exact same content they have already completed, in order to adventure with a friend of disproportionate level? Wouldn't it be funner for all involved for the one guy who is low level to venture out and test his metal against some snow ogers rather than get all the big boys to put themselves at a disadvantage to come help him stomp some house cats?

Well, if we're using LOTR, Frodo and his party were not "leveled" enough to be in the zone they were in, thus they snuck pass,. As a matter of fact a lot of Lord of the Rings involved them sneaking passed things. That's why I don't care for leveling up to the area. I love the feeling of being somewhere I was not suppose to be. AT no point did Frodo go head to head with an orc band in the 1st film. It would have been suicide.  

When game designing, something may sound cool, but you have to look at why you did it in the first place. The point of sidekicking was to allow you to always be able to play with your friends.   In order to enjoy a fine wine, you have to sip it, and kicking up could have encouraged drinking it like a 40 oz.  

They could only sneak by because they sere sidekicked up, if they weren't, their stealth skill would have been too low. :P

Originally posted by Serelisk

Originally posted by Zzad

I simply love it !

You can still feel the thrill of leveling up!

but you can go back & still be challenging.

nuff said-

I don't get it.

I mean, I still think there's a thrill in leveling up because you gain access to skills and traits to customize your character with actual leveling, but as I see it with DE's, there are now large restrictions on the amount of content available for you and your friends to play together and still mutually benefit from

Just so you know....because it sounds like you don't....drops are for your level whether you are 3 or 80.  When you are down sidekicked, let's say at 40 but you're playing as a lvl 5 in a lvl 4 zone, the drops will not be lvl 5 for you, they'll be lvl 40.  So in THAT way there IS mutual benefit.  Beyond that....I'm not sure what you're saying.  Sometimes it's just nice to help someone else as they go through THEIR journey of leveling up.  I mean, after all, you can go right back to your own level areas after a while, so.....what's the problem?