We were talking about this in another thread. Just referring to sandbox and simulationy games as VWRPGs to avoid both confusion and those posters who insist on including the most ridiculous things in the definition of MMORPGs.

I have decided to use this acronym at all times in the future since I like regular mmorpgs but we have plenty of those and I really only want to discuss sandbox/virtual world type games.

I have these are personal qualifications for VWRPGs:

Significant player decisions

Persistent results of actions

Deep non combat systems like crafting and magic and building and politics and socializing

No instances and generally open worldish

Interactions across "zone borders" by the environment

No linear story and more open ended quests

Freedom of play style

I think it would be useful to for people interested in games with these features as VWRPGs not because I think that MMORPG should be used the way it is, but because it just saves so much arguing and certain posters who keep repeating the same points over and over even when they should know that that doesn't accomplish anything. It would just allow us to move passed the drama to more fruitful or at least more interesting discussions.

Does anyone have their own ideas of what sorts of features add to sandbox or virtual world games? Does a game need most or all or only some of these features to count?

How can we get more of these games? What are the best ones?

Do you agree or not agree that using a more specific term would save time and trouble?

Have you already started using this or similar terms?

Labels are used to save trouble. Instead of describing a genre each time you do it once and then use the label. MMORPG has become a totally worthless label with games like LoL and Diablo and shitty browser games getting forums or listings on this and other sites.

Themepark and sandbox are somewhat more useful but I would really like a word that I can hear and KNOW that I want to talk about that kind of game.

Consequence gaming?

Originally posted by ElderRat

Consequence gaming?

That's an alternate name? Any criteria? Consequence gaming seems like a subset of virtual world games. At least someone posted, I was worried I was gonna be on page two by now.

VWRPG is a good term. There is no need to find other names. It is pretty clear what it means.

I vote to use it.

I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

I believe I had a similar conversation with a friend not too long ago, here is the email I sent him:

I'll appologize in advance if this is not what you mean.

[EmaiI]

Below is a collection of things I have played and liked, basically all wrapped into a single game.

The best game is about options. and many different choices. NEVER be locked into anything in the game. (save maybe breeds and gender) but I think those should be aesthetic only.

The game itself would be a hybrid game. Galactic space travellers areland on a world where native people have inherent abilities like psionics or something. This will aloow for players to choose a tradiditional fantasy setting or Sci Fi setting in the same world.

Game is classless. All abilities and skills are trainable to any toon at any point. You just have to want to level it. There is a little known game out there called Ryzom. The game is aging and almost no playerbase left. Which is a shame because they have a concept that is just so simple and yet so awesome. It's this. You can do whatever you
want. If you apply the experience to it. You want to build a crafter, Then you go craft. . Then you decide to be a mage, well, just go take up casting. Then you decide you want hack at stuff with a big sword...then you go level that. TC...no limits. There is no overall cap or pool of experience. You have skills based on what you have leveled., You could be level 100 in crafting but level 20 in Fighting and maybe 40 in Magic. and 110 in gathering. But you simply change gears and do something else and level it. Its like having all your alts wrapped into one toon. It was all what you decided to pursue. It's like SWG only better. (Since this is what I loved about SWG. Difference in SWG was that if you leveled a Rifle master then decided you want to be a doctor, you have to give up your rifle skills. But in Ryzom, you could just be both. You are never done with your character. Make your role defined by the gear you wear. So if you are wearing healing gear, you aren't gonging to be very effective as a fighter. Changing gear would take just long enough to make you entirely unable to do it mid fight without issues. This would keep OPness down through role focusing. (in a way, it would be a bit like Rift's soul system, but based on equipped gear.

Content:
would be another issue. There needs to be stuff to do and gear to get and ways to advance your character based on weather or not teams are available. It is in this way that Anarchy is one of my favorites. There is literally so many things to do endgame it's ridiculous I can't even get into all the different things to do. It's a lot. The major flaw with it however, is that it's almost 100% team based. If your buds are offline, you might as well be too. You aren't doing much of any of it. So, for those times, there should be solo content. OK, so build a Themepark in your sandbox for solo stuff. You can get good gear and good experience, Respectable stuff. But the best stuff will
be crafted, but at no time, will the solo player be out of something to do.

Gear:
Almost everything else that you ever use is created by other players. However. making them better is what you do endgame.Crafting. I like the crafting system in Ryzom. There are so many factors that go into the stuff you make. Materials can be gathered from killing mobs or harvested from the ground. The item can represent a particular slot component. So if you are making a ring for example, the "stone" setting could come from different sources, from something harvested like gemstone, or from a mob such as an eye. But it's not just about filling a slot, it's the type of material that determines the overal effect. so you can mix and match to create many different stat combinations. There is also material quality as well. That just scratches the surface.

Pets:

I cannot stand the game as a whole but, Rappelz has one of the best pet systems in an RPG, I am sure you are familiar. But breeding and combining pets. OK, lose the card mechanic, but adapt.

Anyway, I think you get the idea, Take proven features in certain games and make one great one.

Originally posted by Cuathon

I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

Start you own. It is not like forum software/hosting is hard to get.

You should start a forum/page for your game anyway. It is better to have its own place to be discussed. At least, i am not likely to bother you there.

Well its not exactly on topic. This is about defining a general catergory or subgenre as opposed to an ideal game, but I certainly agree with a lot of what you said.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Well its not exactly on topic. This is about defining a general catergory or subgenre as opposed to an ideal game, but I certainly agree with a lot of what you said.

Ok, I kinda misunderstood the topic then,

However, I think the wo may overlap some. Assuming that we are talking about a niche product here.

Let me rephrase that.

I am not sure I could define the sub genre. Althought I can see where some of my ideas wouldn't belong in a sub category definition. Like the world setting. that's just a preference.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cuathon

I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

Start you own. It is not like forum software/hosting is hard to get.

You should start a forum/page for your game anyway. It is better to have its own place to be discussed. At least, i am not likely to bother you there.

Starting my own forum isn't the best method. Its incredibly hard to get forum traffic or even let people know about some random dudes forum. I doubt mmorpg.com would approve me advertising or talking about a personal forum on their site.

And even if people knew about the site, what is the chance that they would check it often or spend a lot of time posting there? Plus the chance of new people ending up there would be small.

I have been on a lot of small forums for games or topics. Glest has a for about the 3 forks of Glest that are all functioning games. Sure the graphical quality is sub Warlords battlecry, another completed commercial game with 3 titles that is practically dead. Both of which were awesomer than Warcraft ever was. Starcraft was better than them though.

That forum is practically dead. They got maybe 20 people who still post.

I will probably make a forum when I am much farther along in development though.

Originally posted by Mister_Re
I use VWRPG. And I agree with your definition.
I think only indie devs will give us on atm.

Now if only they had the money and time to make a game with fewer bugs, better advertising and better art assets.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cuathon

I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

Start you own. It is not like forum software/hosting is hard to get.

You should start a forum/page for your game anyway. It is better to have its own place to be discussed. At least, i am not likely to bother you there.

Starting my own forum isn't the best method. Its incredibly hard to get forum traffic or even let people know about some random dudes forum. I doubt mmorpg.com would approve me advertising or talking about a personal forum on their site.

And even if people knew about the site, what is the chance that they would check it often or spend a lot of time posting there? Plus the chance of new people ending up there would be small.

I have been on a lot of small forums for games or topics. Glest has a for about the 3 forks of Glest that are all functioning games. Sure the graphical quality is sub Warlords battlecry, another completed commercial game with 3 titles that is practically dead. Both of which were awesomer than Warcraft ever was. Starcraft was better than them though.

That forum is practically dead. They got maybe 20 people who still post.

I will probably make a forum when I am much farther along in development though.

Have you tried petitioning MMORPG?

I'd sign it

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cuathon

I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

Start you own. It is not like forum software/hosting is hard to get.

You should start a forum/page for your game anyway. It is better to have its own place to be discussed. At least, i am not likely to bother you there.

Starting my own forum isn't the best method. Its incredibly hard to get forum traffic or even let people know about some random dudes forum. I doubt mmorpg.com would approve me advertising or talking about a personal forum on their site.

And even if people knew about the site, what is the chance that they would check it often or spend a lot of time posting there? Plus the chance of new people ending up there would be small.

I have been on a lot of small forums for games or topics. Glest has a for about the 3 forks of Glest that are all functioning games. Sure the graphical quality is sub Warlords battlecry, another completed commercial game with 3 titles that is practically dead. Both of which were awesomer than Warcraft ever was. Starcraft was better than them though.

That forum is practically dead. They got maybe 20 people who still post.

I will probably make a forum when I am much farther along in development though.

Have you tried petitioning MMORPG?

I'd sign it

I am pretty sure I would have to have much more work to show to get a petition accepted. Maybe in a few months or a year?

I like VWRPG much better than sandbox.

Sandbox has a derogatory connotation that implies a world that cannot interact with you. You can build stuff in the sand, but there's no narrative except what the players make up while playing in their sand castles.

I think what you are suggesting has a natural sense of narrative to it, even if it's not in the form of traditional quests.

I hope this idea grows, because as long as the mmorpg community is divided between hardcore themepark rangers and sandboxers then we're going to struggle to find games that take the best of both worlds.

+1 for VWRPG. I like it!

I've probably used a similar term but not consistantly. With it, I try to emphasize the need for player interaction. Not complete dependancy, but partial, just enough that players do not play entirely solo. That may not fit for a broad definition, though.

I wonder what games the OP has in mind that could recieve the VWRPG label. Mount&Blade? Skyrim? SWG? Vanguard?

VWRPG?

The board of carmaker Volkswagen (in many countries known as VW) approves ... I don't think that inventing a new name will have any lasting effect on the industry. :)

Originally posted by Larsa

VWRPG?

The board of carmaker Volkswagen (in many countries known as VW) approves ... I don't think that inventing a new name will have any lasting effect on the industry. :)

Haha... but a break-away definition in mmorpgs would be suitably contextual, so should be fine.  : ) Virtual World -RPG is needed for demarcation of the genre, I'd consider. To act as a qualification Boundary.

Eg: In gw2guru forums many posters used sandbox to describe their view of this game

1) sandbox-direction of themepark features

2) spectrum view of where on the scale in comparision to other mmorpgs in a themepark heavily dominated landscape said features they felt in relation they lie! ie a very different median measure and probably logarithmically waaaay away from virtual world.

eg full world virtual economy etc... tick all criteria to pass as V.W.-RPG

HMMM....

On second thoughts perhaps the RPG part needs a look at too?

David Braben - Elite's 25th Anniversary

Eg David Braben in his 25th anniversary of elite mentions this that you can choose trader/pirate/bounty hunter, but your CHOICE -> ACTION taken vs enter the world as a:

a) warrior

b) wizard

c) rogue

d) etc...

i wonder if this definition also needs a BOUNDARY as well from: Set-Classes vs Open-Path (skills)?

CONCLUSION:

A lot of work required to define/use precedents for creation of said term! Eg Venn Diagrams for high level conceptual classification etc. : )

I like this! I was really getting tired of the sandbox label, it sounds so kindergarden...