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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » No more sidekicking up?

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215 posts found
  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

4/04/12 8:14:19 PM#41
Originally posted by Serelisk
Originally posted by FlawSGI

Well I never planned to use the sidekicking to move upwards so I can't say that this bothers me int he slightest. I love the scaling but being able to move freely both ways kinda made the levels actually meaningless for the most part. I do try to keep in mind that a lot of the system tweaks are happening and things are always subject to change for the betterment of their game so even this isn't final. I am not sure why someone would want to skip content even on an alt to jump ahead other than playing with a buddy, but this can still be handled by doing lower content with them so I dont think this is going to affect my gameplay. Thanx for the info.

Thanks for your explanation of your thoughts on the matter. I wasn't actually planning on using this either, unless it does happen that a higher level player wants me to come level with them and I'm lower level. I really like having the options for playing with my friends, and this severely restricts them.

No one has really offered me an explanation why this would break the game or hamper their own gameplay experiences specifically for PvE content excluding dungeons, something I talked about in the OP. It really sucks to me that this is no longer in the game, but I guess I'll just have to deal with it.

I would still like people to explain really why they feel the way they do about this.

 I believe the best answer to your question is in the op you made, I could be wrong.

They had one those moments where (It was good on paper and within the team) but as they beta tested, they prolly realised an big issue with it.

I bet it had to do with loot you can get, by being sidekicked up.

Well I'm about to go back and re read.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  User Deleted
4/04/12 8:14:55 PM#42

I don't know if I agree with their reasoning.  I agree with Serelisk that sidekicking up is more about playing with your friends regardless of location. 

I don't really see it as being something where you have trouble with a particular encounter, find someone higher level to sidekick up with so you can try it again.  It seems like they're aware that the person you'd be sidekicking up to would be sidekicked down to the encounter so it would only buy you a level or a few.  It doesn't seem like they're taking into account that if you fail a particular encounter chances are it will have progressed to a new stage by the time you find someone to come sidekick with you. 

Also, with the leveling curve being only 90 minutes, what's more likely?  That you're going to go back to town and rebuild specifically for that encounter, or that you're just going to gain a level on your own?  Probably you'll just go do other stuff and then coming back later to give it a try (probably specifically because you gained levels?).  Though I can see why that feeling of personal journey over the next 1.5, 3, or 4.5 hours might be more desireable than someone being able to just find a friend and push a button.

 

I'm not too terribly disappointed to see it go, but I wouldn't mind seeing them revisit it in a modified form.  Maybe like was stated earlier, if you're in a party with 2-4 other people you can sidekick up to the lowest level of the rest of them, something to make it be much more clearly about bringing another player along on the adventure.  With instant teleportation back to lower level lands if the party breaks up, it's not like it would lead to a big inconvenience if someone has to leave.

 

edit: regarding loot, as far as we know you get loot appropriate to your level in WvW when you sidekick up there.  It seems entirely reasonable that this would be the case in PVE as well.  Maybe there was some unforeseen difficulty, but I hope theyr'e just being honest that they didn't think it was a good idea.  I'm sure we all have aspects of the game that we'd do differently if it were up to us.

  Serelisk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

 
OP  4/04/12 8:18:23 PM#43
Originally posted by iller

Umm Serelisk, I just offered you that explanation....

 

It divides the population if you allow smurfs to get power-leveled in end-game areas with potentially unbalanced R-v-R mobs that can be exploited for faster XP when the leveling Curve math doesn't convert properly...

The leveling curve is flat. So I don't understand what conversion needs to be taken into account. As well as this same issue being applicable for people leveling down.

Potentially unbalanced RvR mobs? There's still upscaling in WvW to 80. o.o...

Please be more explicit and clear in your definitions and analogies. I don't have experience with this system as it worked in EQ2 or CoH, but I'm confident in it's original intention for GW2. It was to allow friends to play together. 

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

4/04/12 8:25:35 PM#44

Most games have buit in progression of some form. You start off fairly light then the enemies tend to get more numerous or bigger or some combination of the two. You also build up villians and enemies throughout a game. So when you finallyy kill the "Big Bad" you get a sense of accomplishment. Even movies tend to be like this.

Sidekicking up would destroy any sense of progression and lessen any sense of accomplishment. Unless a game is built from the start around a different concept. If Guild Wars 2 started building their game like normal games they probably found that sidekicking up trivialized the later content of the game.

Another thing that has also been mentioned is that it would cause gear issues unless they developed a whole new system of loot that was tied to your current level rather than content. Another case of probably ok if it was planned from the start but a major nuisance if discovered later in testing.

Overall I understand the move and believe it was the right choice.

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6169

4/04/12 8:27:05 PM#45

I understand the sentiment and agree its a valid concern since i probably would not sidekick up in a game like GW2, but why take a choice away from someone.   People are quite capable of making the choice themselves.

 

In a game like City of Heroes sidekicking (and the reason its even called that) I wouldn't care since all that really changed is what villain group you went against.

In GW2 I would want to get there on my own.  But I don't really think there is a reason to deny people the ability.

 

Either way since I wouldn't have used it much its not much skin of my nose, but I don't think its a great reason to take something only not to work on it in the first place.

  User Deleted
4/04/12 8:27:52 PM#46
Originally posted by Serelisk

I don't have experience with this system as it worked in EQ2 or CoH, but I'm confident in it's original intention for GW2. It was to allow friends to play together. 

There are still plenty of ways to group together. Higher level players can go to lower level areas with friends, since it will remain challenging for them. Or they can all go PvP together.

Its better if they dont scale low level players up, that way they can focus on making higher level dungeons challenging for people with the right amount of traits and skills unlocked.

  User Deleted
4/04/12 8:29:52 PM#47
Originally posted by Serelisk
Originally posted by Zzad

I simply love it !

You can still feel the thrill of leveling up!

but you can go back & still be challenging.

nuff said-

I don't get it.

I mean, I still think there's a thrill in leveling up because you gain access to skills and traits to customize your character with actual leveling, but as I see it with DE's, there are now large restrictions on the amount of content available for you and your friends to play together and still mutually benefit from

actually no there's no restrictions on the content as most of it will be open world, ie if you leveled to 39 and your friend was still in a 21 zone you can go to your friend experience content you havent seen (as it will most likely be in an area different then the one you started in) and when they reach around the level you are they can go to your zone and continue. The idea that since only the dungeons will be restricted to the actual levels of the dungeons somehow keeps you from playing the whole game is something that is only whined about by people who really aren't paying attention to how things work in this game. Anet has literally thought of everything including, how to keep people from exploiting.

  Serelisk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

 
OP  4/04/12 8:34:18 PM#48
Originally posted by Atlan99

Most games have buit in progression of some form. You start off fairly light then the enemies tend to get more numerous or bigger or some combination of the two. You also build up villians and enemies throughout a game. So when you finallyy kill the "Big Bad" you get a sense of accomplishment. Even movies tend to be like this.

Sidekicking up would destroy any sense of progression and lessen any sense of accomplishment. Unless a game is built from the start around a different concept. If Guild Wars 2 started building their game like normal games they probably found that sidekicking up trivialized the later content of the game.

Another thing that has also been mentioned is that it would cause gear issues unless they developed a whole new system of loot that was tied to your current level rather than content. Another case of probably ok if it was planned from the start but a major nuisance if discovered later in testing.

Overall I understand the move and believe it was the right choice.

But the thing is, Guild Wars 2 IS designed as a different type of game. The fact that sidekicking was planned to be in the game as early as downscaling is a testament to that. Dynamic events aren't the only way to gain levels. So the first problem would still exist if players just leveled via their personal story or they just leveled via WvWvW, two things Anet has repeatedly said is very possible. It was about giving players the freedom to play the way they want. if a low level player wants to play higher level content with his friend, he can no longer do so.

Also, in WvWvW, there is a system where players receive loot that is specified to their level. The only problem with this applying to PvE, as I understand it, would be if there were fundamental technical difficulties with getting this system to translate into terms of PvE.

I don't understand the issues with the upscaling system yet. People keep saying that it could've been because Arena Net unearthed a problem in the design implementation, but we don't actually know what that is and I'm not so much interested in why it's not in the game if we don't know why that is, rather, explicitly why people believe it shouldn't or should be in the game.

 

  Serelisk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

 
OP  4/04/12 8:37:21 PM#49
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by Serelisk
Originally posted by Zzad

I simply love it !

You can still feel the thrill of leveling up!

but you can go back & still be challenging.

nuff said-

I don't get it.

I mean, I still think there's a thrill in leveling up because you gain access to skills and traits to customize your character with actual leveling, but as I see it with DE's, there are now large restrictions on the amount of content available for you and your friends to play together and still mutually benefit from

actually no there's no restrictions on the content as most of it will be open world, ie if you leveled to 39 and your friend was still in a 21 zone you can go to your friend experience content you havent seen (as it will most likely be in an area different then the one you started in) and when they reach around the level you are they can go to your zone and continue. The idea that since only the dungeons will be restricted to the actual levels of the dungeons somehow keeps you from playing the whole game is something that is only whined about by people who really aren't paying attention to how things work in this game. Anet has literally thought of everything including, how to keep people from exploiting.

My problem is that the level 21 cannot go play with the level 39 when he wants to in the open world dynamic events now.

I don't understand where your second point is coming from since I was mainly referring to the open world PvE.

Also, what is exploitable about being able to be sidekicked up?

 

  Serelisk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

 
OP  4/04/12 8:39:46 PM#50
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Serelisk

I don't have experience with this system as it worked in EQ2 or CoH, but I'm confident in it's original intention for GW2. It was to allow friends to play together. 

There are still plenty of ways to group together. Higher level players can go to lower level areas with friends, since it will remain challenging for them. Or they can all go PvP together.

Its better if they dont scale low level players up, that way they can focus on making higher level dungeons challenging for people with the right amount of traits and skills unlocked.

I've already addressed the dungeon part.

The playing together aspect specifically refers to people not being able to play with their friends in dynamic events in the open world because the upscaling system no longer applies to that portion of PvE.

I can't imagine it would be hard for them to design the system so that players can not apply upscaling to dungeons.

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

4/04/12 8:44:41 PM#51

Alright so apparently they just want to ensure the game is challenging for everyone and won't be exploited lol.

 

I mean that's pretty much just it, not really complex.

 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  cutthecrap

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/29/12
Posts: 608

4/04/12 8:48:31 PM#52

I can live with it, but I don't really like it. I've experienced sidekicking in other games, and imo the pros outweigh the cons: I was able to play with friends who simply had more spare time and had leveled faster, wich provided a freedom of gameplay.

I never felt that it ruined content for me, I still wanted to visit areas and dungeons while leveling up.

 

I'm kinda sceptic about the explanation they gave, it has a fishy smell to it, a rationalising excuse because it contradicts earlier statements they made that told about how positive sidekicking feature was: I get the feeling that for whatever reason they weren't able to make it work right, and that's why they backed off of a feature they had formerly stated would be ingame.

The reason they gave, well, that argument was equally valid when they first announced the sidekicking feature yet back then it was no problem to them. So I don't think that was the real reason for them withdrawing this feature.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

4/04/12 8:48:40 PM#53
Originally posted by Serelisk
Originally posted by iller

Umm Serelisk, I just offered you that explanation....

 

It divides the population if you allow smurfs to get power-leveled in end-game areas with potentially unbalanced R-v-R mobs that can be exploited for faster XP when the leveling Curve math doesn't convert properly...

The leveling curve is flat. So I don't understand what conversion needs to be taken into account. As well as this same issue being applicable for people leveling down.

Potentially unbalanced RvR mobs? There's still upscaling in WvW to 80. o.o...

Please be more explicit and clear in your definitions and analogies. I don't have experience with this system as it worked in EQ2 or CoH, but I'm confident in it's original intention for GW2. It was to allow friends to play together. 

Maybe the fact that at lower levels you simply do not have access to the skills required for higher areas. You don't even unlock elite skills until level 30. Then you have traits which is another issue. It's possible that higher level events, dungeons and mobs are balanced around the fact that you have all of your weapon skills and traits and at least one elite skill.

Think about it, how well would you perform in GW1's Underworld if you only had access to the starting skills, even if you were level 20.

  Serelisk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

 
OP  4/04/12 8:48:43 PM#54
Originally posted by RizelStar

Alright so apparently they just want to ensure the game is challenging for everyone and won't be exploited lol.

 

I mean that's pretty much just it, not really complex.

 

That's a very reasonable concern. I want the game to be challenging for everyone too.

However, since allowing players to upscale has little impact on either of the mentioned problems, as I understand it, it's weird to me so many people are glad to see this feature go.

It was mentioned earlier that it would have little impact on those who choose not to use it, so why not allow it for people who do want to?

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13388

4/04/12 8:48:47 PM#55

Good.  Allowing sidekicking up was way too abuseable.  I, for one, will not miss the level 10 gold farmers in level capped areas--and effectively forcing their way into a group with you because that's how dynamic events work.  To avoid stuff like that, they'd have had to make a huge mess of loot tables to the degree that sidekicking up becomes pretty much pointless, at which point, you might as well just remove it entirely.

  iller

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/18/04
Posts: 517

4/04/12 8:50:35 PM#56
Originally posted by Serelisk

Potentially unbalanced RvR mobs? There's still upscaling in WvW to 80. o.o...

Didn't say RVR, I said R-v-R.   Risk-versus-Reward.

 

Originally posted by Serelisk

Potentially unbalanced RvR mobs? There's still upscaling in WvW to 80. o.o...

Please be more explicit and clear in your definitions and analogies. I don't have experience with this system as it worked in EQ2 or CoH, but I'm confident in it's original intention for GW2. It was to allow friends to play together. 

Okay then you never experienced it first hand so you're not familiar with the Fallout of it and the fact that COH also flattened their supposed leveling curve yet the situation only got worse after purple IO's were added...

You haven't seen it in action so you are resisting all explanations on why it is still abuseable...

  DeserttFoxx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/11/04
Posts: 2337

Cry Havok; and let loose the dogs of war.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

4/04/12 8:51:40 PM#57

No wonder guild wars is looking like such a carebear title.

 

The amount of people who actually dont see the difference between getting boosted up and boosted down is actually rather sad.

 

I dont even know why areanet even thought about the idea of giving players the ability to skip content. If you can scale up then why bother, why have levels, why not just make everything do able at level 1 and you can just set your level before you get to the zone.

Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy

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Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson

  fiontar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3711

4/04/12 8:52:21 PM#58

I'm a bit disappointed by this announcement as well. A higher level can still join lower level friends, be scaled down properly and recieve loot/xp in line with their true level, so friends of differing levels can still play together.

"Side-kicking" seemed like a poor choice of terminology, originally, because it was a lot more than a side-kicking system. Now, it doesn't even offer actual side-kicking, which makes it an even poorer term for what the game does with level scaling. I wonder what happened to drive this off the rails of the original feature design? (I was wondering how they were going to handle having multiple loot tables for higher level content, maybe that ended up being one of the issues).

Aside from the loss of a cool feature for bringing friends and guild mates together, I'm now worried about power leveling in GW2. The side kicking system always ensured you got proper loot/xp for your true level. Now, if a high level player helps a lower level player complete content above the lower level character's level, will that character be able to get better XP and loot than they could achieve playing content at or below their true level? This has to be a concern now. (I seem to remember a Yogscast video from the first press beta where they appeared to be getting a "power leveling" effect by tagging along with a group of higher level characters for content they would never have been able to do on their own. This could be bad for the game if so).

It's not a big deal in the greater context of the game, but it is an issue, more so if it ends up incidentally  enabling power leveling that the side kicking system would have otherwise prevented.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  natuxatu

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/12/03
Posts: 1374

Bookah

4/04/12 8:53:21 PM#59

 

^ Well you can't go up in level that's what they decided. So your whole complaint is utterly pointless.

Personally I like how the system is now.. where if you go to low leve content you get scaled down. If you want to play with your friends you still can. But they have to come to you.. you shouldn't go to them. That make no sense. And since they scale down they will still recieve exp ect.. win/win.

  Serelisk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

 
OP  4/04/12 8:53:27 PM#60
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by Serelisk
Originally posted by iller

Umm Serelisk, I just offered you that explanation....

 

It divides the population if you allow smurfs to get power-leveled in end-game areas with potentially unbalanced R-v-R mobs that can be exploited for faster XP when the leveling Curve math doesn't convert properly...

The leveling curve is flat. So I don't understand what conversion needs to be taken into account. As well as this same issue being applicable for people leveling down.

Potentially unbalanced RvR mobs? There's still upscaling in WvW to 80. o.o...

Please be more explicit and clear in your definitions and analogies. I don't have experience with this system as it worked in EQ2 or CoH, but I'm confident in it's original intention for GW2. It was to allow friends to play together. 

Maybe the fact that at lower levels you simply do not have access to the skills required for higher areas. You don't even unlock elite skills until level 30. Then you have traits which is another issue. It's possible that higher level mobs are balanced around the fact that you have all of your weapon skills and traits and at least one elite skill.

Think about it, how well would you perform in GW1's Underworld if you only had access to the starting skills, even if you were level 20.

Very understandable, and that makes sense. I was also wondering about this the very first time they anounced this system, but ultimately decided that I would be okay with it. They wouldn't need to balance the way those encounters were designed or cater to the players who may have upscaled. Those players would be running the risk of facing content that's above their level by mere factor that they're taking on content above their level.

I reasoned that if they truly wanted to play with their friends, they could make up for the difference in ability with their skills while playing and not the traits or utilities that they brought along. While an integral part of the game, the fact that they made the actual in-fight mechanics much more in-depth would have accounted for their outclassed level and made the content playable to those who really wnated to challenge.

I think this is better than just not having the option at all. Because that's exactly what it is, options. :/

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