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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

Reviews & Impressions  » Why does SWTOR think it's 2004?

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56 posts found
  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1353

4/04/12 2:32:54 PM#21

Well OP, there will be more FPS MMO's however, that is not where all MMO's are going, hate to break it to you.

 

SWTOR is an excellent game for 2004, I agree.  I'm not going into why it wasn't enough for 2012 but I think that we all know it should have been better.

  Leethe

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/09
Posts: 876

4/04/12 2:40:46 PM#22

While the game is a good effort by Bioware, ToR is unique out of all MMOs I know of  for one reason: Its reach actually exceeds its vision. Most of the time a company will promise much but lack the capability to deliver. Bioware could have delivered on so much more but kept its eyes gazing firmly toward the mud.

What I mean is that Bioware is a gaming powerhouse, like them or hate them. The sheer amount of money and staff they threw at the project was staggering. It is down to a complete misdirection by producers and directors that their creative vision looked no further down the road than the present example of their main competition. Bioware is in space and travelling at lightspeed. To them, they're steaming along but by the time they get there, everyone has aged except them. Meanwhile the competition are going straight to warp. 

There is NO miracle patch.

95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.

Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."

  Robsolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 3990

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

4/04/12 2:46:47 PM#23
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by BadSpock

Short answer - they started making the game in 2006 and by the time the "trends" in MMORPG's actually started changing (maybe late 2008 early 2009) they had already invested too much in the design to up and completely change it?

They said in 2008 when announced that they had something like 12 full time writers working on the game since 2006, which tells me the plan/design for the game was pretty much finalized by then.

Sadly, I think this is the most logical explanation. I read an article years ago, how many companies are mired by so called "cannonball decisions". Like firing a cannonball, once a decision is made, they never alter it, whatever may be.

Yep.  You can't spend alot of time rewriting everything.  Some things you can.  Others, you can't.  There's an important phrase in the world of selling stuff, particularly intellectual property:

"You gotta ship."

Spending more and more money/time gets to a point to where it's detrimental to the product. 

All that said, it's as advanced in most MMO aspects as anything else that has launched in the past couple years, AT LAUNCH.  Some others have features it doesn't have, it has features others don't have.

 

  WellzyC

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 546

Ceaseless

4/04/12 2:49:54 PM#24

 

There's a solution to all these SWTOR woes.  

 

*whispers in the OP's ear*     -stop giving EA money.

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, Linear Questing, Cut-Scenes...


www.CeaselessGuild.com

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1830

4/04/12 2:51:33 PM#25
Originally posted by virindi1

TL;DR SWTOR is an extremely unpolished version of WOW with a storyline and voice overs. This game might be good if the year was 2004, not 2012. MMORPGs are pushing away from the theme park EQ model and into a whole new era marked by exploring new player-empowering systems, combat, pvp, and group story lines.

I see MMORPGS as having two eras according to game play:
1. The UO sandbox era (1997-1999).
2. The EQ, two faction, theme park era (2000-2011).

 

Sorry but I have to nitpick a bit here

EQ started in 99 and was infact a 4 faction system. Halflings, Dwarves, Gnomes/Trolls, Dark Elves, Ogres/Half Elves, Woodelves, Highelves/Humans, Barbarians, Erudites

The fact that the players ignored the 4 factions is irrelevant. There were quite a few purist guilds that stuck to the server rules as intended

 

 

Carry on with the pointless rant

  buegur

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 458

4/04/12 3:00:30 PM#26

Although I prefer a more sandbox type of game such as SWG was, I don't see that Theme park type games are becoming a minority.  Using Darkfall as the example for good a good sandbox game is a big Fail in my opinion! I don't think most sandbox type players are looking for gank PvP atmosphere for their MMO cravings and the small populations on those type of games seem to confirm that fact.  Twitch combat also seems to be frenge affair with little popularity in the mainstream.

 

"Mortal Online keeps chugging along (probably needs to sell it to someone who cares about adding more coders), Guild Wars 2, Firefall, Planetside 2, etc. etc.  ""    """"""

I don't consider Planetside a real MMO but a 1st person shooter with depth.  I will definetly play it when it releases but it won't fill in for my MMO fix.  Guild Wars 2 isn't released yet and once again it is debatable if it is a real MMO, butuntil we see it, i can't use it as a shining example for others to follow.  Mortal Online doesn't have that much of a following so if thats the big game example of the future, not many game producers will follow.

  Puremallace

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/11
Posts: 1929

4/04/12 3:02:00 PM#27
Originally posted by BadSpock

Also, I think it is fair to point out that development for Guild Wars 2 was started back in 2007.

Had that much really changed between 2006 when BW started TOR and 2007 when Anet started GW2?

Completely different design philosophy - Anet sought to reinvent and question convention as early as 2007 before it became "the thing to do" to try and differential yourself from WoW.

They can't predict the future of course, but it just so happens they ended up being right that 5-6 years down the road people wouldn't want to be playing World of Warcraft in a different setting anymore.

 

GW2 in my mind is the peak of lazy development. They utterly homogenized everything and took away all indivisuality. Healing is too hard to balance, so let give every some silly AoE thing. Raiding is to hard to do so lets remove it and call 5 man instances our end game.

 

There is no gear chase at all, so how do you advance and feel stronger and get better. YOU DON'T. WvWvW is just Aions abyss with 3 servers in a instance. It will end up in the exact same zerg in GW2 as it did in Aion.

 

You guys are seriously putting way to much in GW2. It is not some amazing thing. I do not get the same feeling looking at GW2 as I do from Archage.

 

I LOVE LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE How ArenaNET is just some amazing developer all of a sudden. The last 6 years they could not even figure out how to make characters jump in that CORPG they made and now they will just revolutionize everything. Good luck when the hackers and bugs hit and you looks for help.

  zevni78

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1116

4/04/12 3:06:33 PM#28

I agree with the OP, SWTOR feels old, compared to the mmos due in the next 2 years...

 

It lacks innovation in combat that we see in TERA, GW2, and the fps mmos such as PS2

 

It sticks with the 2 factions system which everyone knows doesnt work, while TERA and GW2 do without factions, focusing on GvG or WvW PVP and TSW and PS2 give us 3 factions for better balance and variety.

 

Its classes are restricted, unlike the skill wheel of TSW, wep= skill of GW2 or hybrid system of AA.

 

Its crafting is less innovative compared to TSW or any other mmo in development except TERA.

 

And then there are the many innovations due in Wildstar and other projects.

 

Not the mention the return to old school table top features in World of Darkness, Pathfinder, and the many indie mmos in  development.

 

I think as the years go bye SWTOR will look more and more out of place, and harder to defend when people see the advantages to many of these forward (or backward) thinking, but in either case braver  features. The mmo-verse is still going to be mostly themepark for years to come, but at least they wont all be the same, and there is a sense of momentum again.

  User Deleted
4/04/12 3:07:09 PM#29
Originally posted by BadSpock

Short answer - they started making the game in 2006 and by the time the "trends" in MMORPG's actually started changing (maybe late 2008 early 2009) they had already invested too much in the design to up and completely change it?

They said in 2008 when announced that they had something like 12 full time writers working on the game since 2006, which tells me the plan/design for the game was pretty much finalized by then.

Can you provide any data on this MMO trend. I would like to see it.

  Remains

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/21/09
Posts: 369

4/04/12 3:11:06 PM#30
Originally posted by Terranah

Honestly I think they just screwed up.  There's no excuse for this game with a 100 to 200 million dollar budget.  

Have to agree with this. Being the "most expensive" mmo yet to be developed, it seems that something must have gone awry somewhere.

It might have just been a case of very bad management, which this article seems to suggest:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/08/behind-the-scenes-of-star-wars-the-old-republic-throwing-people-at-the-problem/

  Boognishe

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 86

Stay Positive and Love Your Life.

4/04/12 3:12:04 PM#31
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by BadSpock

They can't predict the future of course, but it just so happens they ended up being right that 5-6 years down the road people wouldn't want to be playing World of Warcraft in a different setting anymore.

 

ANet might have had a bit of forsight. Though as for SWTOR I dont know how BW/EA, or any Game Dev company couldnt forsee that people wouldnt want to play WoW in a different setting after all these years.

People like variety. Thats a no-brainer in business

These Themeparks are like the standard fastfood burger joints

MacDonalds, Jack-in-the-Box, Wendys, Sonic, Carls Jr (WoW, AoC, RIFT, AION, STO, SWTOR, etc)

Sure each one is a bit different in menu options, but in the end they are still burger joints.

Burger, Fries, Drink

All these Game Companies now are so focused on trying to make the "better burger"

 

What about the Quiznos, Jimmy Johns, Subways? Popeyes, KFC, Church's? Tacobell, El Pollo Loco, Del Taco?

 

THINK OUTSIDE THE BUN!!!

And now I'm just hungry.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16405

4/04/12 3:20:18 PM#32
Originally posted by virindi1

....

I see MMORPGS as having two eras according to game play:
1. The UO sandbox era (1997-1999).
2. The EQ, two faction, theme park era (2000-2011).
  

Yeah, you old UO players seems to forget that MMOs started in 1996 with Meridian 59 and The Realm, 1 1/2 year before UO. We played MMOs before UO, no matter if garriot coin the term for it or not.

And there are plenty of games that doesn´t really fit in your classifications, like AC, Lineage and DaoC.

It is true that TOR have taken a lot from Wow but not so much from 2004, to me it seems closer to later versions of Wow. 

MMOs need to move forward, not backward and it need to create a new and more social experience with a bit of the best features that it had during the years, both from the early and later games.

Both UO and Wow have been done, time to get us something new.

  olepi

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 970

4/04/12 3:26:58 PM#33

An interesting post. I only played SWToR in beta, and knew in a week I didn't want to play it.

To me, ToR is behind DAOC in features. I played DAOC at launch, and kept on for some years. The whole idea of RvR was brilliant, far far better than any PvP ToR might have.

Crafting in DAOC was also great, unlike the bland and pointless "crafting" ToR has. The number of classes is much greater in DAOC too, and many of these classes have varying "spec lines" that are also more complicated that ToR.

Even DAOC's world is more interesting. Both DAOC and ToR have "dead" worlds, meaning no wind, no seasons, no day/night cycle. But at least in DAOC you could explore and have fun.

To me, the OP is right: SWToR is an old game. And to me, inferior to DAOC, a game 11 years old.,

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  Konfess

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/07
Posts: 695

4/04/12 3:51:43 PM#34

Again and Again I read threads by console FPS fans how they hate MMORPGs ( Tab Targeting ).  Once again nothing new was stated or brought to the table. Stop writing these posts, the game you want has existed since '03.  It's called Planetside.  A Three Faction, Open World PvP, with FPS mechanics and Sandbox character development.  If you stretch the definition some may even say RPG elements.  When I played to level 22 my role was that of a Combat Medic / Combat Engineer.  The only thing it is lack is crafting.  Heck, They are even improving the graphics with Planetside 2.  So STFU, and subscribe to PS1, it is the game you have been waiting for, and play!

 

Oh BTW, I am not bought or paid for by SOE.

Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.

  virindi1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/25/07
Posts: 89

 
OP  4/04/12 4:06:07 PM#35

Thank you to everyone who cleared up the various factual errors I made in my original post.

The original points remains though: it is 2012; SWTOR is an old, outdated, WOW clone.

  virindi1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/25/07
Posts: 89

 
OP  4/04/12 4:06:43 PM#36
Originally posted by Konfess

Again and Again I read threads by console FPS fans how they hate MMORPGs ( Tab Targeting ).  Once again nothing new was stated or brought to the table. Stop writing these posts, the game you want has existed since '03.  It's called Planetside.  A Three Faction, Open World PvP, with FPS mechanics and Sandbox character development.  If you stretch the definition some may even say RPG elements.  When I played to level 22 my role was that of a Combat Medic / Combat Engineer.  The only thing it is lack is crafting.  Heck, They are even improving the graphics with Planetside 2.  So STFU, and subscribe to PS1, it is the game you have been waiting for, and play!

 

Oh BTW, I am not bought or paid for by SOE.

 

Darkfall Online, Mortal Online, TERA, GW2, Archage, Firefall, Shadowbane, etc. etc. etc.

I hate console games, peroid. Mouse + keyboard is much more efficient.

  Loopback

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/04
Posts: 8

4/04/12 7:22:24 PM#37
Originally posted by Leethe

While the game is a good effort by Bioware, ToR is unique out of all MMOs I know of  for one reason: Its reach actually exceeds its vision. Most of the time a company will promise much but lack the capability to deliver. Bioware could have delivered on so much more but kept its eyes gazing firmly toward the mud.

What I mean is that Bioware is a gaming powerhouse, like them or hate them. The sheer amount of money and staff they threw at the project was staggering. It is down to a complete misdirection by producers and directors that their creative vision looked no further down the road than the present example of their main competition. Bioware is in space and travelling at lightspeed. To them, they're steaming along but by the time they get there, everyone has aged except them. Meanwhile the competition are going straight to warp. 

Now take this in mind. Everyone brings up the $200mil budget, but nobody looks at the actual economics. After the payroll, equipment costs, licensing, insurance, pizza parties, new cars for execs, etc., etc., etc.... What you have is maybe a $60mil game if you're lucky when it's all said and done, even less when EA gets involved.

  zymurgeist

Elite Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5176

4/04/12 7:29:10 PM#38
Originally posted by virindi1

Thank you to everyone who cleared up the various factual errors I made in my original post.

The original points remains though: it is 2012; SWTOR is an old, outdated, WOW clone.

 It's kind of a success too. In a lot of ways what was true in 2004 is still true. The world hasn't changed that much since the turn of the century.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  User Deleted
4/06/12 1:25:37 PM#39
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by virindi1

Thank you to everyone who cleared up the various factual errors I made in my original post.

The original points remains though: it is 2012; SWTOR is an old, outdated, WOW clone.

 It's kind of a success too. In a lot of ways what was true in 2004 is still true. The world hasn't changed that much since the turn of the century.

With the amount of time, money, and investment put into SWTOR, it failed. Btw, 2004 is 8 years ago. 8. Years. 2 years away from 10 (a decade).

  Xthos

Elite Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2623

4/06/12 1:28:44 PM#40

Because Lucas is mad, and wants a game change!

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