We're seeing MMOs go from large open worlds like UO,SWG,EVE,EQ and WoW to smaller battleground and instance based like SWTOR and even what WoW has turned into today. The problem I have with that is now every new shooter or online games in general have character progression and even character customization such as hats in TF2. I slowly wonder why we pay a monthly fee for the latest MMOS when their "worlds" are instanced zoned up like crazy and they're now smaller than standard online games. SWTOR for example just has you standing in the fleet station and entering raids or battlegrounds which don't even have 32 people as most standard online games of today. 

I used to love the open world WoW had with all the large scale PVP and how the instances were built into the world which you had to travel and fight the enemy outside them. Yet all they've done since is kill off the world and just have people standing in cities and instant travelling to battlegrounds and instances. Like why am I paying a subscription for what isn't even an MMO anymore?

Now MMOs are becoming smaller and instanced are the lines between MMOs and other genres being blurred? We now have standard online games with 64 players, character progression and customization and offering larger scale gameplay than MMOs.

I personally don't class todays MMOs as MMOs and just see them as like Guild Wars or Diablo. However we're not getting these MMO worlds anymore like we once did, which is such a shame as I thought as tech evolved we'd just get bigger and less zoned/instanced. Everyone is claiming GW2 will change all this, but from all the gameplay videos and info, it's all instant travel everywhere, killing off the world already and you'll just be in battlegrounds.

humph... just hate it.

Welcome to the new age of MMOs, where they are nothing but lobby games.

No more exploration, no more vast open worlds, no more actual character progression. Like I called it years ago, we will one day be paying cash shops and subs for simple FPS games and single player RPGs

Yes, i do believe the lines are being blurred. For some reason, huge open virtual world games have become the bane of the genre because the majority of players that play mmo's today came into the genre sometime in the WOW era. They simply scoff at the idea of having a game that has more things to do than just leveling, warzone pvp and raids. They think the most important social system is a LFG tool. They can't imagine having player interdepency systems that bring people together in a social atmosphere that doesn't deal with combat.

MMORPG's today have become nothing more than SPRPG's with coop functions.

This is why i stick to games by indie companies...

Sure you have more bugs to put up with but you usually get amazing game play and open worlds.. and you dont have to play a dumbed down pile of crap LOL

I am not really sure how GW2 will be right now, at least most of the game isn´t instanced so it could be worse but fast travel really have it´s downsides. They should have just gone to fast travel between towns instead of everywhere.

And yeah, it sucks that everyone is hanging in towns and waiting for fast travel to instances, stuff like dungeon finders have made it even worse.

But as I see it is the overuse of instances the real problem here. Most of the players are not really in the game but at a personal instance for them and maybe their group.

At least GW2 wont be so bad there, it is my hope that someone else will continue and evolve the ideas until we get something that have the massive feel the old games had. But GW2s use of DEs instead of quests actually have a huge potential of turning the MMOs more massive again. I hope it leads to a turning point where players and devs realie that MMOs are more fun the more players are around.

inb4 ns and ah.

I think that maybe the problem is that real mmorpgs or as we now have to call them VWRPGs never had a big enough audience. You had UO and SWG and EvE and that was it for anything with over 50k subs. And that means that you can't get a lot of variety. There is no way to support 10 actually different AAA VWRPGs.

Aside from the 3 big games, you had ATITD, DF, WURM and MO, and maybe UWO and POTBS. ATITD, DF, and MO have either lots of bugs or really low quality graphics. WURM is similar. They also have small subscriber bases. UWO maybe be higher quality but it is far more themeparky. I am not sure about POTBS. And Vanguard, which had lots of bugs.

Games like EQ, SWTOR, WoW, and Rift have far more subs per game than anything remotely VWRPG. So most VWRPGs are labors of love. Wurm, DF, MO, ATITD all are. SWG ceased to exist. EvE is actually really high quality, but low subs. And super time intensive plus all the griefing. UO isn't doing terribly, buts its hardly on par graphically with the others.

Still I think that we can get plenty of AA VWRPGs out there. Especially with increasing middleware and libraries and stuff.

Originally posted by tixylix

... I slowly wonder why we pay a monthly fee for the latest MMOS when their "worlds" are instanced zoned up like crazy and they're now smaller than standard online games. ...

I probably sound like a broken record, but there's only one way: just don't buy these games anymore.

There are enough indie/sandbox/hybrid games around. Sure, they lack mass appeal, they lack features, they lack polish, they're not the latest flavour of the month, they lack graphics - but they are MMORPGs.

Most def!

Originally posted by musicmann

MMORPG's today have become nothing more than SPRPG's with coop functions.

I think that's a fair assessment of manyof them but if that's what people are willing to pay money for, isn't that a good thing?

Originally posted by RefMinor
We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

Lol, nailed it.

That dying genre can keep their linear-grinding, oversized-weapon weilding, hand-holding garbage and we'll take the good stuff with us.

And no, we won't let the door hit us on the way out, we're taking that with us too. 

Originally posted by RefMinor
We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

I'm actually rather surpised that none has really picked up the old Origin/UO term of Persistent State World and run with it. It seems like a great term for sandbox-focused games that want to draw an audience looking for more than lobby-based content but aren't really looking for a Second Life or There experience.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by RefMinor
We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

I'm actually rather surpised that none has really picked up the old Origin/UO term of Persistent State World and run with it. It seems like a great term for sandbox-focused games that want to draw an audience looking for more than lobby-based content but aren't really looking for a Second Life or There experience.

Virtual World vs Persistent State World

Which of those is easier to say and easier to conceptualize?

VW.

PSW is never gonna take off.

Originally posted by tixylix

We're seeing MMOs go from large open worlds like UO,SWG,EVE,EQ and WoW to smaller battleground and instance based like SWTOR and even what WoW has turned into today. The problem I have with that is now every new shooter or online games in general have character progression and even character customization such as hats in TF2. I slowly wonder why we pay a monthly fee for the latest MMOS when their "worlds" are instanced zoned up like crazy and they're now smaller than standard online games. SWTOR for example just has you standing in the fleet station and entering raids or battlegrounds which don't even have 32 people as most standard online games of today. 

I used to love the open world WoW had with all the large scale PVP and how the instances were built into the world which you had to travel and fight the enemy outside them. Yet all they've done since is kill off the world and just have people standing in cities and instant travelling to battlegrounds and instances. Like why am I paying a subscription for what isn't even an MMO anymore?

Now MMOs are becoming smaller and instanced are the lines between MMOs and other genres being blurred? We now have standard online games with 64 players, character progression and customization and offering larger scale gameplay than MMOs.

I personally don't class todays MMOs as MMOs and just see them as like Guild Wars or Diablo. However we're not getting these MMO worlds anymore like we once did, which is such a shame as I thought as tech evolved we'd just get bigger and less zoned/instanced. Everyone is claiming GW2 will change all this, but from all the gameplay videos and info, it's all instant travel everywhere, killing off the world already and you'll just be in battlegrounds.

 

humph... just hate it.

1) Most of the MMOs are F2P, or have an extended trial anyway (even WOW you can play up to L20 for free). So there is no cause to complain about sub fees.

2) Yes, that is the trend. Small group instanced content is the way to go. That suits RPG. The original table top RPG is never about a large virtual world. It is always about small group adventures. And MMOs are turning into small group co-op RPGs. In fact, the new Diablo 3 is probably going to be a beacon in this trend.

3) It is not about technology. It is about game design. Small group instanced content is more convenient, less demanding, more assessible, and more importantly, captured the essence of RPGs, and progression. Thus, it is popular.

Originally posted by RefMinor
We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor
We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

 

It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor
We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

Valid point.  :)

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor
We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

 

It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

 

Second life isn't really a game, but it has 800k odd players, Eve is pushing 450k paid subscriptions, not exactly a small niche, second life will have more players than SWTOR in a couple of months time. Edit: I think only Aion and WoW (and maybe Tor) have a larger player base than second life.

You need to count the F2P games some way too since the MMO market is going that way. Very few will hold onto sub like WOW and TOR.

If you look at all the MMO players (which is like ~45M in the US), SL and Eve are pretty small.

But the point is that there are VW games, though not many, no doubt a response to what the market likes and dislikes.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor
We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

 

It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

 

Second life isn't really a game, but it has 800k odd players, Eve is pushing 450k paid subscriptions, not exactly a small niche, second life will have more players than SWTOR in a couple of months time. Edit: I think only Aion and WoW (and maybe Tor) have a larger player base than second life.

You need to count the F2P games some way too since the MMO market is going that way. Very few will hold onto sub like WOW and TOR.

If you look at all the MMO players (which is like ~45M in the US), SL and Eve are pretty small.

But the point is that there are VW games, though not many, no doubt a response to what the market likes and dislikes.

If we had an EvE quality game that focused primarily on PvE but also with more sand, I am pretty sure it would do a lot better than EvE.

PvP focus and spaceship format are obfuscating factors when using EvE as an example of a virtual world not making money.

And Second Life isn't really a game in the same sense as EvE or any other VWRPG. Its not even an RPG in the traditional sense.

We have absolutely no idea how an AAA PvE focused sandbox would fare because WoW took over the world before one had time to be made.

We have absolutely no idea how an AAA PvE focused sandbox would fare because WoW took over the world before one had time to be made.

 

100% agree.  The days of us playing a virtual world are pretty much over.  The MMO genre has beckoned the call of the console gamer, and their (more casual / action-oriented) interests outweigh anything we desire.  Thus the game companies will submit to their playstyle to make profit.

I wouldnt be surprised if consoles started adding MMO concepts or MMOs started competing with consoles since gaming as an industry is going through a convergence of sorts, where today games can be played on multiple devices including mobile.  This has opened up PC gaming to a whole generation of gamers who were unaware/didnt care prior.

Any developer/publisher in their right (business) mind would want to do COD numbers.  Catch is, you have to follow the model to get it.

Hoping indie developers create something inspiring worth supporting.