Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Please i really like to have discussions where people don't pass their opinions as a fact. You don't know that. GW2 is an exception and not a norm. you people talk as if GW2 came out and destroyed trinity system completely and majority of gamers just won't accept specific roles. Too much wishful thinkign and assumptions going on when it comes to GW2 and that is why i hate talking about it.

Also i doubt there would be any spam for LF tank or lf healer because if you look at the thousands of skill avilable to you and the skill sets you can come up with you will realise that there is no strict requirement for class roles.

I really dislike having discussions with people who make faulty assumptions when 10+ years of history of "trinity based" group combat says otherwise.  Listen its fine to talk "what ifs", thats part of the fun in debating but you can not make assertations that are based in fallcies such as what you say.  Trinity based groups have always, and will always have a disproportionate amount of DPS roles to Healer/Tank roles.  I dont say this with bravado or wishful thinking.  I say this with 10+ years of proven track records to back up my claims.  Name me one AAA MMO that utilyzed a trinity based grouping system and I will show you that Tanks and Healers were the minority of players.

If you are going to accuse me of assuming things and answer with more assumptions of yourself this discussion will go nowhere. GW2 fans always do this. And i knew this the moment you made first post but i thought i would give you benefit of doubt but that was my mistake.

And what you are failing to understand is that there is no 'strict' trinity system in TSW. So the discussion you are trying to have with me is not even true in context of this game.

I will accuse you of assuming when you....ummmm....start assuming.  If you think in the history of trinity based combat that all of a sudden that in TSW you will have a plethora of tanks and healers wherein the last 10+ years its been the exact opposite then I dont know what to tell you.  My assumptions are based on facts, your assumptions are based on wishful thinking....whos assumptions do you thinki will pan out....no seriously realistically if you think all of a sudden a trinity based system will all of a sudden eschew the age old problem of the trinity system (lack of healers and tanks as opposed to DPS roles) then I'm done debating.  Good day.

Last comment though, I havnt done enough research of TSW lately because I've been focused on "another" game but in non strict trinity system you say TSW has, are you still required to have healers and tanks?  If you are required then I will point to past history as to why no matter how you define it or how you design it, if you are required to have tanks/healers in any amount then they will be the least played role.  Now if on the other hand it is designed in such a way that the majority of builds are required to have some sembalnce of tank/heal abilities such as life drains, taunts, or splash heals and the mobs are designed in such a way that agro is not an artificial number indicator in the way as WoW but people can trade back and forth agro then you no longer have a trinity system and my poinbt remains in tact.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

I will accuse you of assuming when you....ummmm....start assuming.  If you think in the history of trinity based combat that all of a sudden that in TSW you will have a plethora of tanks and healers wherein the last 10+ years its been the exact opposite then I dont know what to tell you.  My assumptions are based on facts, your assumptions are based on wishful thinking....whos assumptions do you thinki will pan out....no seriously realistically if you think all of a sudden a trinity based system will all of a sudden eschew the age old problem of the trinity system (lack of healers and tanks as opposed to DPS roles) then I'm done debating.  Good day.

Even if your assumptions are based on facts howis this relevant to TSW? that is all i am saying. I am not doing wishful thinking when i say that there are no strict trinity classes in TSW. If anything TSW seems to be more close to GW1 in class combinations just with a lot more skills to choose from.

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by Zylaxx

I will accuse you of assuming when you....ummmm....start assuming.  If you think in the history of trinity based combat that all of a sudden that in TSW you will have a plethora of tanks and healers wherein the last 10+ years its been the exact opposite then I dont know what to tell you.  My assumptions are based on facts, your assumptions are based on wishful thinking....whos assumptions do you thinki will pan out....no seriously realistically if you think all of a sudden a trinity based system will all of a sudden eschew the age old problem of the trinity system (lack of healers and tanks as opposed to DPS roles) then I'm done debating.  Good day.

Even if your assumptions are based on facts how are the relevant to TSW? that is all i am saying. I am not doign wishful thinking when i say that there are no strict trinity classes in TSW. If anything TSW seems to be more close to GW1 in class combinations just with a lot more skills to choose from.

added a new paragraph in the above which asked a legit question.  If I suspect what you are getting at is what I think then10+ years of trinity based grouping leads me to my conclusion, as not one AAA MMO ever released ever had a population balance evenly between DPS and heals/tanks but the exact opposite is true.....human nature and history is my guide and yours is based on not to be so blunt but its the only way to describe it as wishful thinking.

Listen all I am saying is a trinity based system has always had population imbalances between tanks, heals and DPS and no amount of hope or wishful thinking will lead me to believe that magically TSW has found a solution to the age old trinity problem that has plagued it since day 1.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Listen all I am saying is a trinity based system has always had population imbalances between tanks, heals and DPS and no amount of hope or wishful thinking will lead me to believe that magically TSW has found a solution to the age old trinity problem that has plagued it since day 1.

I played a healer in my last MMO (AoC) and sometimes we had more than enough healers, but not enough tanks. If I could have just switched to a tank-build like you can in TSW I would have done so and solved the problem. I have no problem switching roles*. I bet there are enough people that are flexible like me to make it MUCH easier to get a group going in TSW than it is in other fixed-role MMO's.

*I do have problems with having to switch to an alt to do it though, often the alt is in the wrong place or I don't want the BOP to end up on that character, etc. Switching builds is a much more powerful mechanic than switching to an alt.

I watched the video again because I couldn't see why people are complaining about the animations. I did notice occasionally a little choppiness in places but that could be lag. Could also be the combat style. I mean there are no overly glorified martial arts style moves that we see in many games nowadays. I saw economy of movement, like you would see in a real fight. In a real fight you are going to conserve your energy. If you are swinging a big hammer you aren't going to be doing extra flourishes as it would tire you out sooner. I saw more realism in the way the fighting was done imo. Characters not connecting in combat. The only place I saw that was in the area with marriane chen with the filthified. It made sense to me that they weren't actually connecting since they looked like casters.

Holy trinity debate. I have no issue with it. Could be because my husband always plays the tank role and I the healer.  I guess that makes us the minority spoken of by some. Do I always want to run with a healing build espescially if I am out on my own? No and I have the option to swap out a build using the gear manager with a more all purpose one that better suits soloing. Games that don't require the trinity don't usually have the difficulty I am looking for. When everyone can be a jack of all trades they usually chose just enough healing for themselves. It is a very self centered type of playstyle that not all of us appreciate. I honestly do think it is fair that someone who goes down an entire skill set to the very end should be better than someone who just takes a few points. How do you alleviate this? Remove all tanking skills, healing, stealth, crowd control. Basically by removing anything specialized so that everyone is on even footing so that no one has an unfair advantage because so and so didn't chose that skill. How boring!

If there was anything that I might nit pick about would be some of the dialogue. Mainly some of the Americanisms used by Marriane Chen. The word "icky" I would have replaced with "gross" or even "nastey" and "skedaddle" with "run for the hills". Icky sounds overly youthful and doesn't give it the weight of being disturbing. haha Icky makes me think of being chased by someone with a booger on their finger. I would definatelly run from it but I would not be in fear of my life!! XD Skedaddle is very countrified and used more often to mean hurry up and go do something, as opposed to running away in fear. I chalk it up to they are wanting to portray Marriane as unsophisticated, young, vulnerable and that the dialogue writers may not be as familiar with the subtleys of American English vs how Europeans think we speak. Those are very minor inconsistencies for me. Nothing that would cause me more than a slight bit of amusement.XD 

the crafting seems really nice with a lot of customizations, as well as the nifty classless skill system. dunno why but the game reminds me a lot of Anarchy Online, which is a good thing since it's one of my favourite games. 

people seem to complain about animations and the combat, and while i understand their concerns i'm trying to figure out if that's really something you should be complaining about, considering how many games launched that had amazing animations and fluid combat (TERA, which will launch soon, TOR, Age of Conan [yes, i know it's a funcom game]) but lacked in content and depth.

this game seems to have an incredible world (that looks absolutely stunning, i especially liked the effects of spells and such) with an interesting story along with a classless system that enables you almost complete freedom of choice on how to make your character. they even seem to care about the social aspect of the MMO (with dance clubs/bars/fight clubs in hubs, etc) which is something that has been missing for a long time in MMORPGS.

there are some things that bother me though:

1. how linear the game will be - from the footage the game looks very linear, which kinda ruins the sense of freedom. i hope it's just the footage, and i can't wait to try the game and see for myself.
2. will it feel like an offline RPG? - i seriously hope grouping will be encourged, and not just for dungeons. doing stuff together with other people, living in a lively persistent world, it's really something i miss.
3. content - will there be enough content, both for PvE and PvP? so far the videos i've seen showed the same stuff, and i haven't seemed any PvP action yet (though i haven't looked actively for it).

 

Listen all I am saying is a trinity based system has always had population imbalances between tanks, heals and DPS and no amount of hope or wishful thinking will lead me to believe that magically TSW has found a solution to the age old trinity problem that has plagued it since day 1.

Your problem is that you are failing to define the group size and proportion.  In WOW  LFR right now, it is fairly common to have to wait for DPS.   In wow,  5 mans are based on  1 tank,  1 healer and 3 dps.   If they changed the dynamice to 6 man content and had 4 dps, things would be even, and we would probably be waiting for dps for heroics.    When you are leveling up doing dungeons, again.. almost always waiting for dps spots.. I queue as healer and dps and almost always get put in a dps spot.

But again, you are making conclusions not based on reason.   Why do less players play tanks and healers?  Mostly because it is a more demanding and less forgiving gamestyle.  For the first 3 years of WOW, I would take a bathroom break in the middle of a boss fight in wow and most people wouldn´t notice.  A healer barely has 5 seconds to look away.  Tanks are naturally set up as the leader and many people who play video games do not have real leadership skills.  there is a bunch of reasons tanks and healers are in the minority.

But there doesn´t have to be equal numbers of all 3.  You don´t have to have an equal number of medics as infantry in the army.

But here is the thing that has never been addressed..  without the Trinity, it is impossible to make boss encounters interesting with real mechanisms.  Tank-handoffs...aoe vs single target healing make gameplay much more interesting.  I have yet to see any game without a true tank have interesting boss mechanisms..  they are just big piles of meat with a lot of hitpoints that do damage.   Watch most boss encounters in WOW.. 3 phases, different complex mechanisms...  in other games.. every boss is a 1 phase punching bag.. it hits, you, you hit it, it hits you, you hit it...   boring.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Listen all I am saying is a trinity based system has always had population imbalances between tanks, heals and DPS and no amount of hope or wishful thinking will lead me to believe that magically TSW has found a solution to the age old trinity problem that has plagued it since day 1.

Yes, there is a population imbalance with the typical trinity system, but that's something that is easy to deal with. You take your typical trinity spread. Let's say population is (pulling numbers out of my ass) 60% DPS, 25% Healers, 15% Tanks.

The way you even this out is not by 'forcing' people to switch roles, or play certain classes if they don't want to wait in queues. The way you handle it is you make groups 3 DPS, 1 Healer, 1 Tank. or 3 DPS, 2 healers, 1 tank. You change the group dynamic to match the population spread.

The problem is, when you have to switch to a differnet build you need someone who knows how to work that specific build.  Trinity based games don't force their users to learn to play the whole game, just their role. I saw the switching thing and thought, oh that's like Rift. Sure, a seasoned vet like me can play a healer or tank, but not everyone can.  Tanking takes a ton of skill to do.  

I just hate the idea of monsters so dumb thinking "oh he wants me to attack him now okay".  It's so anti dungeons and dragons, the game this was all based on.  As a DMthe bosses use stratagie, not focusing at the guy yelling at them to attack them. 

Ya I watched this presentation too a few weeks ago. Nothing appealed to me at all from what I saw. The game world looks lifeless, animations are bleh, cut-scenes are meh...and towns as social hubs? I dunno..it seems to be following SW:TORs path of disappointment or at least, definately not worth the hype it is getting.

You could argue all you want and say how great the classless system is, but at the end of the day, it takes more than a few innovative mechanics to make a game awesome. It is the sum of its parts that counts.

Ugh. Thank goodness Funcom released this presentation video. I am now certain i will not be participating in this train wreck. Such a shame because the game premise sounded so unique and different. 

I lasted as long as the scene in the hotel room with the Dragon initiate. I was interested in trying out the Dragon faction, but I have no interest or attachment to the idea of having my character felt up or whatever other sexual act was taking place. I felt very uncomfortable and embarrassed especially since this is the opening introduction to a player character faction. The idea that a faction revolves around sensuality just seems like a weak ploy to pull in a larger player base.

The graphics were god awful. The Dragon recruiter or whatever her function, looks native american even though she is clearly meant to represent an asian influence. Such dated animations, character models...even the cars parked in the street are simple renderings and merely a poor attempt at some semblence of atmosphere.

I don't have a hate on for Funcom, I have heard of their history but not really followed their games until TSW. So I could care less where they came from, but based on this presentation video their future looks dim.  No thanks.

Well, some people can't deal with matured themed games, no matter how old they are.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Well, some people can't deal with matured themed games, no matter how old they are.

I guess, some people play games because it is enjoyable. A place to relax and escape everyday stresses. An opportunity to experience another form of artistic media. Not to have some fake cyber erotic scene with poorly rendered character models. 

Both myself and my husband agree this intro was unneccissary and tacky. He found it more amusing, I more embarrasing but whatever, a matter of opinion really.

Shooting the assault rifle point blank while being hacked with a scythe looked really silly. 

And not running away just sitting there getting sliced with your blood pouring every time you get hit...

Killed any kind of immersion for me.

In more cartoony styles you can have a hunter shooting a bow at point blank but doesn't look AS silly because of the context.

They should do what LOTRO did with hunter where if a mobs comes point blank you get your dual melee weapons out and have different melee attacks to use.

So they should make assault rifles work on min 10m range and a way to quickly switch to a secondary weapon that is melee.

Originally posted by Vocadi

Originally posted by Xasapis

Well, some people can't deal with matured themed games, no matter how old they are.

I guess, some people play games because it is enjoyable. A place to relax and escape everyday stresses. An opportunity to experience another form of artistic media. Not to have some fake cyber erotic scene with poorly rendered character models. 

Both myself and my husband agree this intro was unneccissary and tacky. He found it more amusing, I more embarrasing but whatever, a matter of opinion really.

You may dislike the scene, but that doesn't mean it's unnecessary or tacky. Ingame it fulfills a function, they just chose not to shy away because of some prudency or such. Each secret society in their intro has a different means to move you to the Tokyo underground scene where you learn about the Filth and its thread to the world: As a Templar initiate, a madman makes your mind travel to that scenario, with the Illuminati you're strapped on a table and drugged in order for your mind to travel there, and with the Dragon you reach the required level of enlightenment via sex or tantric energy to get you transported to that scene.

You might disagree with how they present it, but ingame it fulfills a function, it fits in the setting and the differences between each secret society.

Ohhh for the love of gaming, please stop the constant bashing of Age of Conan..and FunCom

We get it already, and we know that "the launch went poor" ..That doesnt change the fact that it's one of the better MMO's out there right now...This isn't even arguable or a matter of taste, it's just the way it is....It's a quality product right now,  and it suffers from this start..But it's undeniable one of the better AAA products in the MMO genre right now..We have a few games at the top and yes AoC is one of them..

Funcom is an innovative company that doesn't get scared to try new things, unfortunatly they are also clumbsy with their marketing and such, and really tough break that they had to release Age of Conan in the state they had at launch-.. Even thou I thought it was ok , the masses obviously thought othervise..

Sure , they may screw up TSW aswell, not likely this time, but they may, or they may just fail because there is so many idiots beating the dead horse and continuing to do so even thou Age of Conan is mostly fixed right now..

If you continue to beat this dead horse , we may end up without innovative game developers at all, or do you really want to play World of Warcraft clones for the rest of this decade..

And about TSW, hopefully they get it together this time, the concept sounds GREAT, but as others have noticed there is some rather stale animations and such..Well see..Looking forward to this and something diffrent :)

You have to realise that both AoC and TSW are games meant for mature audience. AoC tackled slavery, prostitution, human trafficing, the occult and all those things that are expected to be seen in the era of Conan. TSW era is no happy happy land either and I bet it will be presented that way.

I don't know, maybe Templars will be a better choice for some people, since this faction revolves around faith (not sure if it revolves around religion as well). Illuminati on the other hand will be all about money and power.

In any case, some people find relaxing blowing people's heads off with high powered rifles. Others enjoy a good romance or a sexy spin off. As long as we all understand that we play games that are made for mature audience and we respect each others varrying taste, all is good.

I'm glad TSW isn't E for everyone. The game has a lot of things that are not what they seem. It's a very intelligently crafted world that shows you a lot but most of it is not real. Looking at the presentation a simple minded person might see a badly rendered sex scene. For a member of the templars, dragon or illuminati there's a meaning behind the actions, words and settings.

TSW is a dark mysterious place that put your senses and abilities to the limit. It's not trying to be elves and fairies in peaceful fantasy setting. It's depressing, tangled, dangerous world in which you must do your part to uncover the truth behind the realm while working in one of the three factions.. or perhaps between them?

This is why the game will never be mainstream. I just hope it catches a solid 500k-1mil playerbase that it deserves. TSW doesn't hold your hand, TSW rips it off.

Weird, where did all the people go who like a mantra told me for years, gameplay matters not graphics?

Originally posted by Elikal

Weird, where did all the people go who like a mantra told me for years, gameplay matters not graphics?

They are too busy playing minecraft...