I think Bioware has proven that a good story and some fine voice acting can do a lot for a game. Unfortunately, Bioware didn't really care to make a good game beyond this element so they're sort of standing on one pillar. But there are still an awful lot of people playing this somewhat lack-luster game so clearly the story accounts for a lot in gaming. I'm sure Blizzard is already lining up a lot of actors for their new mmo due to the success of swtor and a lot of other companies will follow suit. The first game that actually succeeds in making a solid game with swtor quality story telling might end up being the much-sought-out "wow killer."

Originally posted by Unlight

Originally posted by DeaconX

Please DO NOT blame the idea of intrudicing a more meaningful and deep narrative into MMORPG's as the problem.  Blame WEAK writing and design.

True, so long as it doesn't come at the expense of game play. 

To me, a good story is important to an MMO.  However, good game play is pivotal.  This game may have had the former, but I never saw any indication of the latter.  One can get away with that for a single player game, but for an MMO that will live or die by it's ability to retain players, it's just unacceptable.  Stories will lose their impact after you've experienced ithem once, no matter how good they were.  It's just not something that will keep people hooked for the long term.  Solid, exciting game play will keep people returning though.

But if the game was built up for bringing in and capturing KOTOR fans first and mmo gamers second, then the picture becomes much clearer on why TOR is set up the way it is. To me, it's the reason why they kept everything so secret almost all the way up to launch day. They knew they needed the pre-orders and capture those initial sales to be able to try and make up as much as they could to cover the cost of the game's developement. They were able to use the SW IP to get those people to buy those 6 month sub package to keep those sub numbers looking high.

Now all of this is my opinon only, but i don't think Bioware's focus was to keep players for long term or once they reached level 50. The game is just not setup to do so.

I don't fault people for enjoying TOR.  I can't speak for them and the game is a solid MMO experience.  However, like other have said ... and the author specifically ... the voiceover are in many cases like listening to some read the quest boxes to you. 

It's a cool idea in theory, but due to the very standard hotkey gameplay, doesn't add as much to the game as expected.  Playing TOR just made me appriciate the nuances of single player RPGs more than bridge the gap between the two.

I guess I enjoyed CoH and WoW, but thempark MMOs just don't do it for me anymore.  The longer I played themepark MMOs, the more I wanted something more ...

I don't know ... once gcd MMO with a Hot, DoT, DD, Hamstring, etc ability is the same as the next no matter what graphical skin you put on it.

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by Neloth

It made the difference for me, TOR is the only mmo I consider worth my time and I think many casual players like it, the space-bar crowd and hardcore folks should look for another game IMO.

You're correct. TOR is the most boring and casual game on the planet. The rub is, It's the only so called mmo that is using the SW IP, and it may be the last. So that leaves fans that want a more open and deeper SW mmorpg , kinda left out in the cold. If Bioware wanted to screw something up, in my book, they should have used their own ME IP.

That is the thing though isnt it?

You had a SW sandbox, it tanked liked a mofo, and it was shut down. If you wanna blame someone, blame yourselves. Rather than 2 or 3 subs, if you wanted it so bad, then you should of carried 5 or more each.  Folks did everything they could to badmouth SWG into the grave after NGE, and now they bitch cause it is gone. I mean you cant make this stuff up.

What it comes down to is this: The sandbox MMO crowd provides enough support for a smaller studio.

Until you show you can provide the needed income for the proverbial AAA variety, you will take what you can get, and ya better hope ya like it. 

As far as story.....I like BW story based games.  The game fits my casual style to MMO gaming these days.

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by Elikal

I wasn't that impressed tbh. I mean I liked the personal story and the decisions a lot. Really. But overall, it was 1-2 single player stories and then it was game over for me. I had fun with those 2 stories, Jedi Knight and Sith Inq., but I didn't feel I wanted to spent time beyond that in SWTOR, and story didn't make me stay. It was good, it was nice, but it just wasn't a MMO I experienced.

And while I liked the story much, I know I can live quite well without VO and choices, if the next MMO has other things I like.

Personal note. I hope Bioware never makes another MMO. But that's just how I feel.

The real shame of it all is that they made a boring and crappy game using the SW IP. If they wanted to screw something up they should have used their own IP and made a ME game instead.

Dont go there.

Koster launched a buggy, no content having, POS title in SWG. Regardless if you like TOR or not, we arent crashing to desktop constantly, and there are things for everythintg to do.

SWG was the most expensive MMO made at the time, and it was an epic failure. When they have totally revamped TOR twice, then come talk to us.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by Neloth

It made the difference for me, TOR is the only mmo I consider worth my time and I think many casual players like it, the space-bar crowd and hardcore folks should look for another game IMO.

You're correct. TOR is the most boring and casual game on the planet. The rub is, It's the only so called mmo that is using the SW IP, and it may be the last. So that leaves fans that want a more open and deeper SW mmorpg , kinda left out in the cold. If Bioware wanted to screw something up, in my book, they should have used their own ME IP.

That is the thing though isnt it?

 

You had a SW sandbox, it tanked liked a mofo, and it was shut down. If you wanna blame someone, blame yourselves. Rather than 2 or 3 subs, if you wanted it so bad, then you should of carried 5 or more each.  Folks did everything they could to badmouth SWG into the grave after NGE, and now they bitch cause it is gone. I mean you cant make this stuff up.

 

What it comes down to is this: The sandbox MMO crowd provides enough support for a smaller studio.

 

Until you show you can provide the needed income for the proverbial AAA variety, you will take what you can get, and ya better hope ya like it. 

 

As far as story.....I like BW story based games.  The game fits my casual style to MMO gaming these days.

This is really good, AAA quality oversimplification.

SWG would still be live if the IP didn't have an expensive license, and if it wasn't nearly 8 years old. At some point you trade in the old car for a new one even if the old car was a great car. Problem is that the new car turned out to be a piece of crap marketed aggressively, and overhyped with innuendo suggesting more than was delivered. This was done mainly through omission and secrecy, not active message control or distortions. SO it's not a matter of they told me what to expect, but more like they let the train go nuts without thinking about how the hype trajectory would end.

As for the sandbox hating, I'm not buying it anymore. It's a false dichotomy. 'Them lousy sandboxers' sounds like old man ranting. These are design features, not political ideologies for fuck's sake.

I am happy for you that you like the game though. And I mean that because I remember what it was like.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by Elikal

I wasn't that impressed tbh. I mean I liked the personal story and the decisions a lot. Really. But overall, it was 1-2 single player stories and then it was game over for me. I had fun with those 2 stories, Jedi Knight and Sith Inq., but I didn't feel I wanted to spent time beyond that in SWTOR, and story didn't make me stay. It was good, it was nice, but it just wasn't a MMO I experienced.

And while I liked the story much, I know I can live quite well without VO and choices, if the next MMO has other things I like.

Personal note. I hope Bioware never makes another MMO. But that's just how I feel.

The real shame of it all is that they made a boring and crappy game using the SW IP. If they wanted to screw something up they should have used their own IP and made a ME game instead.

Dont go there.

 

Koster launched a buggy, no content having, POS title in SWG. Regardless if you like TOR or not, we arent crashing to desktop constantly, and there are things for everythintg to do.

 

SWG was the most expensive MMO made at the time, and it was an epic failure. When they have totally revamped TOR twice, then come talk to us.

I didn't mention SWG anywhere in this particular post now did i. TOR is crappy all on it's own. But since you mentioned it, even though SWG was ruined by the NGE it still lasted for 8 yrs. with a sub fee. I"ll bet my house that TOR doesn't make it 2 yrs. tops. It's bleeding subs out so bad and not adding any back in from what i can see, as well as the monumental amount of just bad views and reviews of the game, it's not gonna last long. You can go to any game site and the official site for that matter and people are clamoring for Bioware to add in open world planets and all these sandbox elements. It doesn't take much to see that TOR is not an mmorpg and will not keep people playing for yrs and yrs. Subs will keep trickling down and TOR will be the scapegoat for Bioware to use for what they did wrong and what they learned as they try and hype their ME mmo.

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by Elikal

I wasn't that impressed tbh. I mean I liked the personal story and the decisions a lot. Really. But overall, it was 1-2 single player stories and then it was game over for me. I had fun with those 2 stories, Jedi Knight and Sith Inq., but I didn't feel I wanted to spent time beyond that in SWTOR, and story didn't make me stay. It was good, it was nice, but it just wasn't a MMO I experienced.

And while I liked the story much, I know I can live quite well without VO and choices, if the next MMO has other things I like.

Personal note. I hope Bioware never makes another MMO. But that's just how I feel.

The real shame of it all is that they made a boring and crappy game using the SW IP. If they wanted to screw something up they should have used their own IP and made a ME game instead.

Dont go there.

 

Koster launched a buggy, no content having, POS title in SWG. Regardless if you like TOR or not, we arent crashing to desktop constantly, and there are things for everythintg to do.

 

SWG was the most expensive MMO made at the time, and it was an epic failure. When they have totally revamped TOR twice, then come talk to us.

I didn't mention SWG anywhere in this particular post now did i. TOR is crappy all on it's own. But since you mentioned it, even though SWG was ruined by the NGE it still lasted for 8 yrs. with a sub fee. I"ll bet my house that TOR doesn't make it 2 yrs. tops. It's bleeding subs out so bad and not adding any back in from what i can see, as well as the monumental amount of just bad views and reviews of the game, it's not gonna last long. You can go to any game site and the official site for that matter and people are clamoring for Bioware to add in open world planets and all these sandbox elements. It doesn't take much to see that TOR is not an mmorpg and will not keep people playing for yrs and yrs. Subs will keep trickling down and TOR will be the scapegoat for Bioware to use for what they did wrong and what they learned as they try and hype their ME mmo.

 

 

Without SOE All Access to keep it afloat, it would of been gone long before that. Same with MxO.

You talk about "only SW MMO"....I was in that boat for many yrs.  Maybe in 8 or 10 yrs your side of the coin will get another go round. You guys had your SW MMO, and now you begrudge others. Priceless.

As far as SWG, it is beyond old listening to you sandboxers carry on about TOR, especially when SWG had an unreal amount of money dumped into it at the time, and yet couldnt be bothered to give us good PVE content. We wont even go into bugs, and how much missing at launch etc.

That is why it was brought up. TOR is in a hell of a lot better shape than SWG was at launch.

Originally posted by ignore_me

 

 

You had a SW sandbox, it tanked liked a mofo, and it was shut down. If you wanna blame someone, blame yourselves. Rather than 2 or 3 subs, if you wanted it so bad, then you should of carried 5 or more each.  Folks did everything they could to badmouth SWG into the grave after NGE, and now they bitch cause it is gone. I mean you cant make this stuff up.

 

 

This is really good, AAA quality oversimplification.

SWG would still be live if the IP didn't have an expensive license, and if it wasn't nearly 8 years old. At some point you trade in the old car for a new one even if the old car was a great car. Problem is that the new car turned out to be a piece of crap marketed aggressively, and overhyped with innuendo suggesting more than was delivered. This was done mainly through omission and secrecy, not active message control or distortions. SO it's not a matter of they told me what to expect, but more like they let the train go nuts without thinking about how the hype trajectory would end.

As for the sandbox hating, I'm not buying it anymore. It's a false dichotomy. 'Them lousy sandboxers' sounds like old man ranting. These are design features, not political ideologies for fuck's sake.

I am happy for you that you like the game though. And I mean that because I remember what it was like.

 

I am talking about the entirety of SWG's run. There werent enough subs to keep SOE happy during any era. That thread the other day about "would you pay 50 per month for a game" comes to mind.  With 500k subs, SOE wouldnt of touched SWG. That would of given it more than EQ(at 450k), which was top dog until WoW hit.

As far as "them lousy sandboxers", I would say you like to project. This side of the fence doesnt try to correlate a persons IQ, nor motivation in life, or whatever unrelated idea into others game choices.  Instead I have always said sandboxes appeal to those that enjoy PnP, and PVP. If you cant see the difference, I dont know what to tell ya.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by ignore_me

 

 

You had a SW sandbox, it tanked liked a mofo, and it was shut down. If you wanna blame someone, blame yourselves. Rather than 2 or 3 subs, if you wanted it so bad, then you should of carried 5 or more each.  Folks did everything they could to badmouth SWG into the grave after NGE, and now they bitch cause it is gone. I mean you cant make this stuff up.

 

 

This is really good, AAA quality oversimplification.

SWG would still be live if the IP didn't have an expensive license, and if it wasn't nearly 8 years old. At some point you trade in the old car for a new one even if the old car was a great car. Problem is that the new car turned out to be a piece of crap marketed aggressively, and overhyped with innuendo suggesting more than was delivered. This was done mainly through omission and secrecy, not active message control or distortions. SO it's not a matter of they told me what to expect, but more like they let the train go nuts without thinking about how the hype trajectory would end.

As for the sandbox hating, I'm not buying it anymore. It's a false dichotomy. 'Them lousy sandboxers' sounds like old man ranting. These are design features, not political ideologies for fuck's sake.

I am happy for you that you like the game though. And I mean that because I remember what it was like.

 

I am talking about the entirety of SWG's run. There werent enough subs to keep SOE happy during any era. That thread the other day about "would you pay 50 per month for a game" comes to mind.  With 500k subs, SOE wouldnt of touched SWG. That would of given it more than EQ(at 450k), which was top dog until WoW hit.

 

As far as "them lousy sandboxers", I would say you like to project. This side of the fence doesnt try to correlate a persons IQ, nor motivation in life, or whatever unrelated idea into others game choices.  Instead I have always said sandboxes appeal to those that enjoy PnP, and PVP. If you cant see the difference, I dont know what to tell ya.

 

 

Have a good one man :)

I read through some of the comments from people which were pretty negative. I am playing the game with my son and thoroughly enjoying it. I like the dialogue options and it's great fun to roll against each other to see how it will turn out.  For me following the story is one of the strongest parts of the game.  I actually wish I could save or replay some of the more epic story related encounters.  (Not really interested in watching someone else's toon on youtube)

Originally posted by beel

I read through some of the comments from people which were pretty negative. I am playing the game with my son and thoroughly enjoying it. I like the dialogue options and it's great fun to roll against each other to see how it will turn out.  For me following the story is one of the strongest parts of the game.  I actually wish I could save or replay some of the more epic story related encounters.  (Not really interested in watching someone else's toon on youtube)

That really is kind of the point. I have read several people in this post call SWTOR a great PVE, single player game with MMO capabilities which in my opinion is spot on. There is a nice story but after you grind up all your characters to 50, what? there is no community based game play, no player villages or cities, crafting is pointless.... space is well... (x-wing vs tie fighter was more impressive save for graphics). In all bioware made a very foolish endevour choosing to take on their first MMO with the marketing title of Star Wars. The expectations were very high and now we are left with KOTOR you can play with friends but not an MMO. There is no endgame, no originality between appearances of players, their rides, their ships, ect.

Overall, nice single player KOTOR I can play with my kid but NOT an MMO.

Originally posted by ignore_me

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by ignore_me

 

 

You had a SW sandbox, it tanked liked a mofo, and it was shut down. If you wanna blame someone, blame yourselves. Rather than 2 or 3 subs, if you wanted it so bad, then you should of carried 5 or more each.  Folks did everything they could to badmouth SWG into the grave after NGE, and now they bitch cause it is gone. I mean you cant make this stuff up.

 

 

This is really good, AAA quality oversimplification.

SWG would still be live if the IP didn't have an expensive license, and if it wasn't nearly 8 years old. At some point you trade in the old car for a new one even if the old car was a great car. Problem is that the new car turned out to be a piece of crap marketed aggressively, and overhyped with innuendo suggesting more than was delivered. This was done mainly through omission and secrecy, not active message control or distortions. SO it's not a matter of they told me what to expect, but more like they let the train go nuts without thinking about how the hype trajectory would end.

As for the sandbox hating, I'm not buying it anymore. It's a false dichotomy. 'Them lousy sandboxers' sounds like old man ranting. These are design features, not political ideologies for fuck's sake.

I am happy for you that you like the game though. And I mean that because I remember what it was like.

 

I am talking about the entirety of SWG's run. There werent enough subs to keep SOE happy during any era. That thread the other day about "would you pay 50 per month for a game" comes to mind.  With 500k subs, SOE wouldnt of touched SWG. That would of given it more than EQ(at 450k), which was top dog until WoW hit.

 

As far as "them lousy sandboxers", I would say you like to project. This side of the fence doesnt try to correlate a persons IQ, nor motivation in life, or whatever unrelated idea into others game choices.  Instead I have always said sandboxes appeal to those that enjoy PnP, and PVP. If you cant see the difference, I dont know what to tell ya.

 

 

Have a good one man :)

 

SWG had many bugs, glitches ect... but it was an excellent real MMO. Player based cities and crafting that were unmatched. A decent storyline and things to keep you and your guild mates entertained.

It was far from perfect but had some of the Pre-CU crowd stuck around they would have seen that it had gotten better and by games end was a very well balanced  and fun game to play.

After 8 years though the game engine needed work and the population was not high enough for SOE to maintain the agreement. Lucas also had stated several times that he would not allow multiple Star Wars titles to compete against each other. Hence the death of SWG for something new. The problem is the something new is nice and shiny but lacks any horse power.

SWTOR is a nice single player game with multiplay capabilities but it is NOT a good MMO.

Nero is fiddling while Rome burns.

More paid drivel, oh joy. Just what we needed.

 This is exactly what i was talking about, some 3 months ago. You CANT play the story for years. End of.  Having a story is nice, but i wont resub for 6 months waiting for new story pieces to come out. :/

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Originally posted by RefMinor

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Originally posted by arieste

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Originally posted by RefMinor

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Originally posted by CujoSWAoA
MikeB you already listed this game as your 10th favorite Star Wars game of all time.

Which just in itself proves that you've no idea what a good Star Wars game even is.

---

 
And there are only 8 SW games :D

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for real?  i'm not arguing, just trying to actually count.. let's see...
 
Rebel Assault
Rebel Assault 2
Rebellion
Dark Forces
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight 2
KOTOR
KOTOR2
SWG
X-Wing
Tie-Fighter
X vs TF
TOR
The Force Unleashed
The Force Unleashed 2
uhm..there was another RTS one that i forget the name of... i think there are definitely more than 8 PC ones... 
 
i probably missed a few...

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Then it's the 16+a few+2th best SW game ever made. :D

---

To be fair, the poster did say Star Wars games of all time.
This would include board games, electronic hand held games, console video games, coin-op arcade games, even the Table Top RPG.

The 4th Pillar is Fail



Been playing since early testing, and now I space thru all dialogue.  Why?

It's flat.  It's one-dimensional.  Other than the class story (even then) its completely flat.  Why?

Because Star Wars or any story is an ensemble cast, (Luke, Han, Chewie, Leia, Jaina, Allana, etc. etc.) the interaction of the protagonist with other characters that share the journey, and charm. 

Not in SWTOR.  In SWTOR, its an avatar moving from one stranger to another, to get the next task and a bonus to kill 15-50 mobs for extra credit.  One stranger, another stranger, it all blurs together and there's no ensemble.

The crew barely has any lines, and is a real missed opportunity.  They should have taken half the generic quests and just issued them out of the already in existence SWTOR Mission Terminals, and used the extra development time to significantly increase crew interaction during quest dialogues, and during rare companion quests.

As it is, its so dry, so boring, so flat, its like reading the worst of the Conan the Barbarian books, where he just wanders around with no supporting casts.

1.5 of 10 Points

Firstly... I'd really like to point out my amusement. I've been lurking on this website for years. Every. Single. MMORPG. Even World of Warcraft. Gets chewed by 90% of comments. On any given article. It really completely invalidates the opinions and it's a sad fact because some peoples opinions, including critque, are very valid. But I find myself scrolling to the bottom or never posting.

To answer the question: I can't get enough the story. I love it. I also find the SWTOR is far more condusive and friendly to roleplayers. I have noticed the larger portion of traditional hardcore gamers, the ones that want the best stats, the best gear, the best score, etc are the ones that primarily dislike the game (from experience in-game). Though I'd say BW were prepared for that when focusing on story. I think largely they were attempting to pull in their SP fanbases - especially from the cult-classic KOTOR - into an MMO environment. On my part? It worked a charm. I didn't start subscribed after a month. Then I resubbed 3 weeks ago. So of the say 3 or 4 months it's been out. I'm missing a month, maybe a month and a half. With eight individual storylines to play through and the usual standard raid faire I find the game is well worth while when compared to the classics like WoW or Rift.

Originally posted by Mellybelly

Firstly... I'd really like to point out my amusement. I've been lurking on this website for years. Every. Single. MMORPG. Even World of Warcraft. Gets chewed by 90% of comments. On any given article. It really completely invalidates the opinions and it's a sad fact because some peoples opinions, including critque, are very valid. But I find myself scrolling to the bottom or never posting.

To answer the question: I can't get enough the story. I love it. I also find the SWTOR is far more condusive and friendly to roleplayers. I have noticed the larger portion of traditional hardcore gamers, the ones that want the best stats, the best gear, the best score, etc are the ones that primarily dislike the game (from experience in-game). Though I'd say BW were prepared for that when focusing on story. I think largely they were attempting to pull in their SP fanbases - especially from the cult-classic KOTOR - into an MMO environment. On my part? It worked a charm. I didn't start subscribed after a month. Then I resubbed 3 weeks ago. So of the say 3 or 4 months it's been out. I'm missing a month, maybe a month and a half. With eight individual storylines to play through and the usual standard raid faire I find the game is well worth while when compared to the classics like WoW or Rift.

Fair enough, but what is your highest level character?

Most people love this game till they get in their 30s and up. Some make it to 50 and then quit. Will story be enough for you then? 

I loved the first 30 days. I loved the stories (on the empire side). I really wanted to get into the Republic stories because they were under-represented on my server, but they just weren't as engaging at all, to me.

How far along are you in SWTOR?