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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » It's my turn to beat the horse again.

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144 posts found
  User Deleted
3/30/12 9:35:48 AM#121
Originally posted by Shakes420
Originally posted by Banaghran
 
 i am wary of accepting that over the course of 2009 something fundamental has changed in the mmo market 
 
 

Im just spit-balling here, but could one of the reasons "themepark" styled MMO's get all the attention is their ease of conversion into a F2P model.

whoah that's a scary thought but maybe true.

  FrostWyrm

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 1028

3/31/12 5:55:49 AM#122
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by FrostWyrm
Originally posted by Sythion
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Innovative implies new. Sandbox ideas have been tried (in fact, very early MMO like UO) and failed to become mainstream. Old ideas never become innovative again.

You can argue sandbox ideas are different from the mainstream MMOs .. which is probably true.

There are plenty of cases, even outside of entertainment, where retro ideas are modernized to become innovative. Take "The Artist" for instance. Despite being a throwback to silent films, it's truly a modern movie, with modern story telling flow and cinematography.

However, you are right in the sense that these old ideas are always implemented in new ways. I agree that to be mainstream, sandbox games will need to grow out of their boxes.

What nariusseldon doesn't get, however, is that doing the same boring thing (in this case, themeparks) over and over again doesn't move the genre forward either. The reason those retro trends come back is because they were good ideas that are not the same as the norm.

More of the same thing gets boring. In the 70's Pong was hugely popular. More and more pong without any variation caused the gaming market to crash.

In the mid 80's, Super Mario caused a "revolution" and suddenly 2D platformers became popular. More and more 2D platformers without any variation nearly caused the gaming market to crash again.

Later it was 3D fighters.

Later still, 3D Platformers.

Later still, FPS'.

Each type of game that becomes popular gets done to death before the industry moves on to the next flavor of the month. Several years ago it was the themepart MMO's time in the limelight. The market has now been saturated with the same old same old over and over, and many people are beginning to want something else.

For all the die-hards crying "No! My type of games are here to stay!" You are deluding yourselves. Themeparks will inevitably get old. We're already seeing it begin to happen. They wont disappear completely, just like 3D fighters, 3D platformers, and FPS' haven't disappeared completely, but the focus will, and has already began, shifting to a new direction. Whether that direction is something new, or something that hasn't been tried in a long time is yet to be seen.

You keep telling yourself that.

 

 

How many yrs now have we heard "sandboxes are going to be popular any minute now" on this site? 

 

 

As long as folks enjoy PVE gaming,  themeparks are going to have numbers. Seeing as PVE gaming has been around since I started playing video games, in the late 70s, I sure dont see it going away.

1) Not once in my post did I mention the word "sandbox". Please don't read things that aren't there.

2) Sandbox =/= PvP. A sandbox only implies that the player is not coralled from one zone to the next like cattle. There CAN be PvE sandboxes, or even hybrids of sandbox and themeparks. Sandparks, they're commonly called.

3) I love PvE. Don't be so quick to make assumtions about people. Or rather, I should say I love PvE done well. See, like everything, PvE can be done well, or it can be done poorly. Now whats well or poor is totally a matter of opinion, but when PvE hasn't changed in 8 years, it does become stagnant.

  User Deleted
3/31/12 6:53:57 AM#123

GW2 has playable hairy-chested humans and will beat The Secret World by a long shot. SWTOR failed hard. MoP panda's will make Chuck cry as we get closer to the end of the world. Pac-Man is still fun. Can you believe that?

  FrostWyrm

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 1028

3/31/12 7:09:11 AM#124
Originally posted by DecoyTrooper

GW2 has playable hairy-chested humans and will beat The Secret World by a long shot. SWTOR failed hard. MoP panda's will make Chuck cry as we get closer to the end of the world. Pac-Man is still fun. Can you believe that?

Some children mouth off to their parents. Green Tea is a flavor of ice cream. If a cat dies once it apparently loses all 9 lives at the same time. Real life doesn't have a reset button. A cookie is just a cookie but Newtons are fruit and cake. Not sure where this is going, please elaborate.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/01/12 12:25:36 PM#125
Originally posted by Banaghran

The overhype of modern games is ofcourse a fair point.

However i dont really agree with comparing mmos to other games in this respect, mmos have subscriptions and population, not just sales, it would be like comparing a cell network operator with a publishing company.

The mindset, that a mmo is like any other game (buy->play->finish->forget) is one thing that i think is damaging in the long run, atleast in the sense what i and probably the OP expects the mmos to be.

Ultimately, a service is a success if it grows, even if the grow is miniscule, i am wary of accepting that over the course of 2009 something fundamental has changed in the mmo market, Aion still had a time of growth (and it was crappy by its own standards), and even if modern mmos would drop from 1m users to 200k after launch, i would expect them to have a growth period after the population stabilizes to be able to call them a success.

Well across all MMORPGs, the service has grown, and is probably still growing.

Like cellphone companies, the market is saturated.  There just aren't many people left with interest in the product who don't have it yet.  It's possible cell revenue is still growing quickly, but customer count growth has undoubtedly slowed.

Unlike cellphone companies, the market is immensely fragmented.  Customers are spread across a hundred different MMORPGs.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/01/12 1:21:14 PM#126
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Banaghran

The overhype of modern games is ofcourse a fair point.

However i dont really agree with comparing mmos to other games in this respect, mmos have subscriptions and population, not just sales, it would be like comparing a cell network operator with a publishing company.

The mindset, that a mmo is like any other game (buy->play->finish->forget) is one thing that i think is damaging in the long run, atleast in the sense what i and probably the OP expects the mmos to be.

Ultimately, a service is a success if it grows, even if the grow is miniscule, i am wary of accepting that over the course of 2009 something fundamental has changed in the mmo market, Aion still had a time of growth (and it was crappy by its own standards), and even if modern mmos would drop from 1m users to 200k after launch, i would expect them to have a growth period after the population stabilizes to be able to call them a success.

Well across all MMORPGs, the service has grown, and is probably still growing.

Like cellphone companies, the market is saturated.  There just aren't many people left with interest in the product who don't have it yet.  It's possible cell revenue is still growing quickly, but customer count growth has undoubtedly slowed.

Unlike cellphone companies, the market is immensely fragmented.  Customers are spread across a hundred different MMORPGs.

Well, and how about, say, 2001-2010, was the market not saturated and fragmented by your standards? The market was not saturated and fragmented for Aion and in a broader online games sense for Minecraft.

To me it sounds like a cop out, like managers of a 6 season tv show arguing that the ratings went down because the show is old, not because half of the writing staff was fired last year and the main actor is on drugs and it shows...

Or as usual, saying that wow went from popular to old in a time of few months around the launch of wotlk :)

Flame on!

:)

 

 

  corpusc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1348

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

4/02/12 3:33:38 AM#127
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by jpnz

I always ask 'if these people really want 'sandboxes' why aren't the current sandboxes doing well?' 

Sadly, I never receive an answer. :(

 

 

it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with FFA full loot PVP could it?  hmmmmmmmm!

 

you know i've seen that answer many many times on this forum.

 

being a sandbox and being FFA PVP are not intrinsically tied to each other. 

but if you're gonna be so short-sighted as to use the past 7 years of limited thinking as proof of anything, i guess you might be so limited as to think that current examples are proof that......... that is all that will ever exist.

 

If FFA Full Loot PVP is the issue then why isn't "A Tale in the desert" popular?

 

 

lol, what a ridiculous question

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Terranah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3609

4/02/12 10:43:02 AM#128
Originally posted by RefMinor
The problem is the genre is aimed at those without dreams.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.  When media was less varied and more limited, people had to use their imagination more.  But we are constantly bombarded with media these days and it has really stifled individual creativity.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

4/02/12 11:42:17 AM#129
Originally posted by Terranah
Originally posted by RefMinor
The problem is the genre is aimed at those without dreams.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.  When media was less varied and more limited, people had to use their imagination more.  But we are constantly bombarded with media these days and it has really stifled individual creativity.

Why is that a "problem"? People are looking for entertainment in games, not ways to train how to think and imagine new ideas.

I use ZERO imagination when i watch the Avatar and have tremendous amount of fun leveraging James Cameron's imagination. Is there a problem?

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

4/02/12 1:02:53 PM#130

I think there are 3 issues at stake....

 1) It's easier to MARKET a good game (or movie, etc) then it is to make one. Thus alot of games fall far short ot the expectations setup for them from the spin/hype machine that thier Marketing Dept. builds for them.

2) MMO's have moved from the "Entreprenuer" stage to the "Commodity" stage.  This means they are being produced by different people with different sets of dynamics in place. "Entreprenuer's" are by nature risk takers. They are individuals who have a particular idea or concept that they BELIEVE will be successfull and this belief is often based on nothing more then intuition. They thrive in exploring new and unproven business models/verticals. They are usualy experts in the subject matters of whatever business they are engaging in...and will often follow thier "vision" and are motivated by a passion and faith that vision will be successfull.  As such they are constantly experimenting and trying new ideas and concepts. There are many failed entrepenuers and failed projects among entreprenuers but when they do hit upon a success it will likely by novel, fresh and outstandingly executed.

By contrast, people running the show in a "Commodity" type market, really have no interest or passion in the particular product that they are producing or a particular vision... they simply have an interest on getting the best Return On Investment that they can. They often have little or no direct expertise/knowledge in the subject matter of the product itself. Rather they have expertiese in business processes and market analtyics which they believe they can apply equaly well to any given product vertical whether it be games or toilet paper. The person calling the shots in this sort of situation is as likely to have run a Toilet Paper company for thier prior job as to have anything to do with gaming...they may never have personaly even played an RPG...and have no particular desire to.  What they do have is experience in anlayzing past performance,  metrics and market analysis.... and they use these to drive thier decision making process. The "Commodity" people are FAR less likely to have the same rate and depth of failures as the "Entrepenuers" ....at the same time they are highly unlikely to reach the same heights of success....and rarely if ever will the products they produce have much that is fresh or new or highly innovative to them.... usualy they will be a rehash of some past success (or what is percieved as such) with perhaps a few small variations or improvements added to it. By nature "Commodity" type people are risk averse...and this becomes exaggerated when the investment budgets in new products involve very large amounts of capital (as they have in MMO's today).

3) The MMO market is very large and diverse and has a wide audience with many different tastes. However the budgets to produce major new products have become so significant....require such a length of time that the money is sunk into the project before realizing some return and are percieved as so risky by nature that it becomes difficult to get funding for anything that is PERCIEVED to cater to anything other then the broadest possible segment......and because of the historical success of a certain number of games (primarly 1 huge one) that are Themeparks, it has become "common wisdom" that is the market segment you have to go for in order to be successfull. Even though there may well be enough of an audience that is interested in other types of games....it's difficult to get significant funding to try to pursue those audiences...just because of the limited prior history that exists for those type of Products. Most of the existing examples are either very very old....made when the MMO audience as a whole was far more limited in scope.....or are very small budget, independant projects that are neccesarly going to have a difficult time scaling up to a large auduence due to resource constraints.

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

4/02/12 1:09:19 PM#131
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Terranah
Originally posted by RefMinor
The problem is the genre is aimed at those without dreams.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.  When media was less varied and more limited, people had to use their imagination more.  But we are constantly bombarded with media these days and it has really stifled individual creativity.

Why is that a "problem"? People are looking for entertainment in games, not ways to train how to think and imagine new ideas.

I use ZERO imagination when i watch the Avatar and have tremendous amount of fun leveraging James Cameron's imagination. Is there a problem?

Not so much a problem as an entirely DIFFERENT form of entertainment. Some people like reading/watching stories....other people like writing them....others like both. But they are entirely different sorts of entertainment.

Personaly when I play MMO's, RPG's, and games in general...my preferences run to playing a more active role in the CREATIVE aspects.  For the PASSIVE role...I prefer movies or novels as a medium instead. Nothing wrong with people who's tastes run differently. Alot of us are just rather dissapointed that we have a fairly meager set of offerings geared toward our tastes at the moment.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

4/02/12 1:30:20 PM#132
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Terranah
Originally posted by RefMinor
The problem is the genre is aimed at those without dreams.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.  When media was less varied and more limited, people had to use their imagination more.  But we are constantly bombarded with media these days and it has really stifled individual creativity.

Why is that a "problem"? People are looking for entertainment in games, not ways to train how to think and imagine new ideas.

I use ZERO imagination when i watch the Avatar and have tremendous amount of fun leveraging James Cameron's imagination. Is there a problem?

Not so much a problem as an entirely DIFFERENT form of entertainment. Some people like reading/watching stories....other people like writing them....others like both. But they are entirely different sorts of entertainment.

Personaly when I play MMO's, RPG's, and games in general...my preferences run to playing a more active role in the CREATIVE aspects.  For the PASSIVE role...I prefer movies or novels as a medium instead. Nothing wrong with people who's tastes run differently. Alot of us are just rather dissapointed that we have a fairly meager set of offerings geared toward our tastes at the moment.

 

So there is nothing wrong with people who play games to just hack & slash and have fun.

There is very little creative aspects of MMOs for players because, in my opinion, most are interested in CONSUMING content, not creating it.

BTW, how can you be creative in playing a RPG like Skyrim? You just follow its stories and do its quests. There is ZERO creativity involved. Don't tell me choosing which quest to do first is creativity.

  User Deleted
4/02/12 1:46:03 PM#133

It's a well beaten horse thats for sure. but still a valid drubbing is required. sadly,developers don't interface with many human beings so they don't come here for ideas much. since they spend a great deal of time watching family guy or sports teams and drinking lattes at starbucks whilst surfing animal porn and telling what little friends they have how they are abused at thier current gig because they only make 250k a year and still don't have a company car.

Point is I agree with you mainly.

until the mighty beast and large fluke called Wow which was made possible by angry revolting SWG vets falls...we will never cease to stop beating this horse ever.

  Cloudrat

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/11
Posts: 1

4/02/12 2:03:54 PM#134

I have found a great deal to satisfy my creative outlet while continuing to be able to do the rest that these games have to offer while playing Everquest 2.

Player made dungeons that others can visit and earn exp and goodies while the builder earns accolades and tokens,

Player housing with the ability to not just decorate with quested and crafted items, but spaces to build whole villages and parks and architecturally unique buildings.

Both the dungeons and the housing have easy access for other players to visit and add a thumbs up if they like what they see.

This game is constantly evolving and growing into one of the finest examples of it's genre available.

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

4/02/12 2:39:58 PM#135
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Terranah
Originally posted by RefMinor
The problem is the genre is aimed at those without dreams.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.  When media was less varied and more limited, people had to use their imagination more.  But we are constantly bombarded with media these days and it has really stifled individual creativity.

Why is that a "problem"? People are looking for entertainment in games, not ways to train how to think and imagine new ideas.

I use ZERO imagination when i watch the Avatar and have tremendous amount of fun leveraging James Cameron's imagination. Is there a problem?

Not so much a problem as an entirely DIFFERENT form of entertainment. Some people like reading/watching stories....other people like writing them....others like both. But they are entirely different sorts of entertainment.

Personaly when I play MMO's, RPG's, and games in general...my preferences run to playing a more active role in the CREATIVE aspects.  For the PASSIVE role...I prefer movies or novels as a medium instead. Nothing wrong with people who's tastes run differently. Alot of us are just rather dissapointed that we have a fairly meager set of offerings geared toward our tastes at the moment.

 

So there is nothing wrong with people who play games to just hack & slash and have fun.

There is very little creative aspects of MMOs for players because, in my opinion, most are interested in CONSUMING content, not creating it.

BTW, how can you be creative in playing a RPG like Skyrim? You just follow its stories and do its quests. There is ZERO creativity involved. Don't tell me choosing which quest to do first is creativity.

Obviously alot more limited in Single Player Games then Multi-Player Games because alot of creative activity in games is based on interaction with other people. However, even with single-player games there is room for creative aspects in how you build a character and how you interact with the games environment and/or story arcs. The openness with which the game design makes a big qualitative difference in what DEGREE the game supports the players creativity.

For example, Skyrim is much more supportive of player creativity then DA2 for example.

Even if we look at something as simple as in Skyrim you get to choose your characters name and aren't given a pre-defined backstory...you are just presented with the situation of your IMMEDIATE circumstances. Compared to DA2, where your characters name must be "Hawke" and your entire characters backstory is predefined (or so I understand it to be....only played DAO personaly). Something as simple as this can make a BIG difference in a games appeal to people who are more interested in creative aspects.

There is nothing wrong with people who play games for whatever reason they choose to play them.... which are many and varied. As long as people derive entertainment from a game...that's fine.... but just as people are different, they derive entertainment from different things.

I believe a big part of the reasion why todays MMO's tend to limit creative aspects is.....

1) It's harder to design systems that incorporate player creative imput robustly ( Simple example, if you allow players to choose thier own names. Then when doing game dialogue you must either avoid using that name or create a dynamic lookup element that incorporates that data field into the dialogue....it also makes doing things like VO's and cinematics unable to accomodate that as they are incompatible with dynamic content).

2) As MMO's are big-bussiness now... Developers are afraid to surrender even a tiny bit of control over the user experience to players...as doing so implies a certain amount of risk. It's the same factor that prevents the actors who play characters at Disney's Themeparks from going "off-script" or ad-libbing.  In early MMO's the Developers (and the players) had more background in MUD/MUSH & PnP gaming....and thus were more comfortable with and less affraid of allowing individuals (whether Players or GM's) more involvement with the Creative aspects of play....because those were common elements in those other venues.

3) There is a PERCEPTION that players are more interested in consuming content rather then playing a creative role because the one clear runaway success in the MMO world (WoW) emphasized that aspect of play.....so as an example it set expectations among Developers, Investors, Pundits and even Players.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

4/02/12 3:11:35 PM#136
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

For example, Skyrim is much more supportive of player creativity then DA2 for example.

Even if we look at something as simple as in Skyrim you get to choose your characters name and aren't given a pre-defined backstory...you are just presented with the situation of your IMMEDIATE circumstances. Compared to DA2, where your characters name must be "Hawke" and your entire characters backstory is predefined (or so I understand it to be....only played DAO personaly). Something as simple as this can make a BIG difference in a games appeal to people who are more interested in creative aspects.

I would not call playing SKYRIM creative. Really, picking a name is creative? In that case, i am 10x more creative in WOW than in SKYRIM since i got to pick it 10 times for alts.

In WOW, you can pick guild names, make a guild tabard, and set a schedule for guild activity. 1000x more creative than SKYRIM.

And whether u r a backstory or not, you follow the quests in SKYRIM. How is that creative?

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

4/02/12 3:31:24 PM#137
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

For example, Skyrim is much more supportive of player creativity then DA2 for example.

Even if we look at something as simple as in Skyrim you get to choose your characters name and aren't given a pre-defined backstory...you are just presented with the situation of your IMMEDIATE circumstances. Compared to DA2, where your characters name must be "Hawke" and your entire characters backstory is predefined (or so I understand it to be....only played DAO personaly). Something as simple as this can make a BIG difference in a games appeal to people who are more interested in creative aspects.

I would not call playing SKYRIM creative. Really, picking a name is creative? In that case, i am 10x more creative in WOW than in SKYRIM since i got to pick it 10 times for alts.

In WOW, you can pick guild names, make a guild tabard, and set a schedule for guild activity. 1000x more creative than SKYRIM.

And whether u r a backstory or not, you follow the quests in SKYRIM. How is that creative?

Actualy, you don't have to follow the quests at all in Skyrim if you don't want to do so....and you follow them in different ways and can achieve different results that have lasting effects in the game environment....

But really when we are talking WoW vs Skyrim we are comparing Apples and Oranges....as MMO's and SPRPG's are NECCESARLY different animals that are affected by different operating constraints.

That's why I used Skyrim and DA2 in my comparison.

If we wanted to look at MMO's we could potentialy look at WoW when compared to GW2 or the proposed Pathfinder Online, or maybe even something Asherons Call.

For the record, I thing WoW is more supportive of creativity in some aspects then Skyrim and less in others. For me, Skyrim generaly seems a bit more creative....but then again...it's operating under a different set of contraints.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/02/12 7:01:50 PM#138
Originally posted by Banaghran

Well, and how about, say, 2001-2010, was the market not saturated and fragmented by your standards? The market was not saturated and fragmented for Aion and in a broader online games sense for Minecraft.

To me it sounds like a cop out, like managers of a 6 season tv show arguing that the ratings went down because the show is old, not because half of the writing staff was fired last year and the main actor is on drugs and it shows...

Or as usual, saying that wow went from popular to old in a time of few months around the launch of wotlk :) 

In 2001 it clearly wasn't saturated.  In an extremely simple sense, WOW's first couple years saturated the market.

The US market was definitely saturated for Aion.  I claim no knowledge of the asian market, which is the only place it did well.

Not sure where Minecraft comes in.  Calling it an "online game" is misleading, given it's predominantly played solo.  The 5+ mil sales are the result of the game servicing a previously untapped audience.  The 5+ mil sales are also misleading, given that I'm amongst those who bought it yet I really didn't enjoy it much and quit within a week.

WOW didn't go from popular to old as the result of one expansion.  It's been a gradual thing.  Drama queens were saying it was old and finished during vanilla patches, but only now have the genuine quitters (probably) surpassed the new installs.

  PukeBucket

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/11
Posts: 888

4/02/12 7:08:58 PM#139

Think of it from the point of view with investors.

They're not usually gamers. They see the stats from early EQ, what WoW did, how modern games like DDO and DCUO managed to turn things around, and how at least monetarily successful clone games like RIFT and SWTOR are.

That's the jist of it.

We're in an era where crowd sourcing funding is viable and a few games are coming based on that model.

Also I think there's enough out there for a lot of small companies to try the unique.

Risk vs Reward for those with the cash to invest is all that really needs to change. Eventually the same ol' won't be a solid green gain and the risk will catch up.

I honestly think that'll have to wait for technology to advance.

I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  User Deleted
4/02/12 7:36:30 PM#140
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RefMinor
The problem is the genre is aimed at those without dreams.

Why is this a problem?

The goal of games is to entertain. I don't find MMOs particularly lacking in that department.

 

Imagine people had been raised on the films of the Coen Brothers, Scorcese, Hitchcock or Kurosawa and then suddenly the only film you were allowed to watch was Transformers.

There you have it. 

 

But worse than that would be watching the overwhelming majority of Transformer fans bash on the other films because they are boring, complicated, make you think too much, etc. And you could vote with your wallet all you wanted, but your ticket purchases would be a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what the majority wanted and spent money on like voracious locusts moving from one new flashy production with shootouts and car chases and BIG explosions to the next.

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