Originally posted by Kreedz

Explain this point to me?

 

How are people earning gold and KARMA through the use of Gems?

A nice detailed Flow Chart will do.

I'll wait here for you, till your finished.

/sit

No need for a flow chart.

1. Link a paypal, google, visa, mastercard, etc. to your Anet account.

2. Buy Gems

3. Earn Gold or Karma for Gems. 

Originally posted by Kreedz

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Kalfer

Regarding siege weapons, that won't be a problem. Even if it was they would just add karma requirement to each purchase.

Good point.   We should just ignore the ability of players to earn gold and karma with gems.   

Explain this point to me?

 

How are people earning gold and KARMA through the use of Gems?

A nice detailed Flow Chart will do.

I'll wait here for you, till your finished.

/sit

Magic Find Boost = 10% higher chance for rare drops = more gold if you sell drops directly to NPCs.

Karma Boost = 20% more Karma for the duration of the boost.  Does this need to be explained?

Gems can be traded directly for gold from other players.

Loot Bags = More drops which can probably be vendored to NPCs (agruably a waste, as you'll probably get better value from a gem to gold trade).

Full on demand repair = Reduces gold sink of having to repair your gear.  More gold for the player to hang onto.

People will find a way to bitch about anything on MMORPG.com if the game isnt either a WoW clone or a FFA gankfest Sandbox with minimal and boring content.

Its sad that a game comes along and trys to innovate something unique and gets alot of good hype but the first negative thing that comes out people decide to make a mountain over a molehill.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

People will find a way to bitch about anything on MMORPG.com if the game isnt either a WoW clone or a FFA gankfest Sandbox with minimal and boring content.

 

Its sad that a game comes along and trys to innovate something unique and gets alot of good hype but the first negative thing that comes out people decide to make a mountain over a molehill.

P2W business model isn't a " negatvie thing ".  It literally changes the way the game is being developed.   I could agree with you if it was just a game mechanic, but it isn't. 

GW2 isn't being developed for players to be fun, but fun if you use the cash shop.

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Kalfer

Not saying GW1 is a MMO is a poor excuse to try not to make it relevant. 

Why is GW2 so different than GW1 cash shop?   If the game genre didn't matter, then shouldn't they have the exact same items?  A developer is going to build ( monetize ) an MMO differently, than a CO-OP RPG.  

I don't even know what you are saying. It's like your defeating your own points. GW2 is build different for various reasons I won't go into here. Regardless it does not take away from their track record. Unlocking all those skills in GW1 took literally hundreds of hours. So I don't see how it's relevance is not applicable just because the product has changed. It's still "time skipping" not power.

And that's the end of that, as they say.

 

 

Regarding siege weapons, that won't be a problem. Even if it was they would just add karma requirement to each purchase.

Good point.   We should just ignore the ability of players to earn gold and karma with gems.   

*sigh* The game was not created to have a even playing field. It's unfair. You get boosts when your faction has WvW favor. You get boosts when your in a guild. You get boosts from various NPC. It doesn't matter. It's not unfair. Stop being insecure and go kick ass instead. 

 

 

see this also: Good video from Wooden Potatoes explaining why the cash shop is great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEknPR-l-is&feature=related

Did you read the comments below his video?   It was made before the CS was leaked.

 I really don't see the point of arguing against these leaks that are bound to change a lot. It changes nothing. As there is no pay 2 win. Whatever is in that cash shop takes nothing away from everyone else.

 

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Zylaxx

People will find a way to bitch about anything on MMORPG.com if the game isnt either a WoW clone or a FFA gankfest Sandbox with minimal and boring content.

 

Its sad that a game comes along and trys to innovate something unique and gets alot of good hype but the first negative thing that comes out people decide to make a mountain over a molehill.

 

P2W business model isn't a " negatvie thing ".  It literally changes the way the game is being developed.   I could agree with you if it was just a game mechanic, but it isn't. 

 

GW2 isn't being developed for players to be fun, but fun if you use the cash shop.

This is were you lose your credibility. Saying something as silly as this simply laughable. 

It constitutes that people would think it would be fun to rush through the game. The game is created to have the pace they are set for the use without these things. There is no monthly fee they are dependant on. They gain nothing on having the majority who will not touch this shop, have a bad experience, as they wont be back for DLC and expansions. 

But you seem to be past the point of reason, having made your own version of reality. You have already decided for yourself that using the cash shop is the way the game is most fun, which I think is silly. On the contary, I would say that most people would cheat themselves of the game by doing that. It's not even an issue as any player who is hooked up with someone higher levelled can skip to their level instantaniously, thus making level ranges redudant if so need be. 

 Heh , we call that having fear of being out-owned. What I mean is that MMO's these days are all about solo play , so if someone is able to solo a certain dungeon then that person will hog most of the players to play with.  Why join someone with a rusted Civic when you can join someone with a new V8 Mustang? 

 People fail to realise how much a cash shop destroys a community in a MMO , but ya'll keep supporting them cash shops anyways. If you think GW2 will be the next holy grail , your way off your mark.

 People think it's cool to put money on virtual goods to be the "best" player , but in the end ,you end with having fake friends that only use you.  The days where you had to grind your ass off to prove yourself are way behind us , just put a few hundreds on a MMO and you'll be more popular then Justin Bieber , with no skills like Bieber.

Originally posted by Magnum2103

Originally posted by Kreedz

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Kalfer

Regarding siege weapons, that won't be a problem. Even if it was they would just add karma requirement to each purchase.

Good point.   We should just ignore the ability of players to earn gold and karma with gems.   

Explain this point to me?

 

How are people earning gold and KARMA through the use of Gems?

A nice detailed Flow Chart will do.

I'll wait here for you, till your finished.

/sit

Magic Find Boost = 10% higher chance for rare drops = more gold if you sell drops directly to NPCs.

Karma Boost = 20% more Karma for the duration of the boost.  Does this need to be explained?

Gems can be traded directly for gold from other players.

Loot Bags = More drops which can probably be vendored to NPCs (agruably a waste, as you'll probably get better value from a gem to gold trade).

Full on demand repair = Reduces gold sink of having to repair your gear.  More gold for the player to hang onto.

Any player can get those things from the store without using any money, and they can get those boosts from various different means - Like joining a guild with that perk, getting boost from NPC, having WvW favor. 

The only difference is that they can get them faster. By how much faster we wont know because the economy is not running. And since players are not competing against each other in the world, that doesn't really matter.

And as for WvW... Since it's so unbalanced in it's very design I see no reason to care about that. That will be such a crazy zerg-lol fest that some silly little boosts will barely make a dent in the grand scheme of the mists. (assumption!)

Originally posted by SuprGamerX

 Heh , we call that having fear of being out-owned. What I mean is that MMO's these days are all about solo play , so if someone is able to solo a certain dungeon then that person will hog most of the players to play with.  Why join someone with a rusted Civic when you can join someone with a new V8 Mustang? 

 People fail to realise how much a cash shop destroys a community in a MMO , but ya'll keep supporting them cash shops anyways. If you think GW2 will be the next holy grail , your way off your mark.

 People think it's cool to put money on virtual goods to be the "best" player , but in the end ,you end with having fake friends that only use you.  The days where you had to grind your ass off to prove yourself are way behind us , just put a few hundreds on a MMO and you'll be more popular then Justin Bieber , with no skills like Bieber.

Your car examples is about some weird form of materialistic wealth. I can only tell you that elitism is a syndrom that is thriving in any subscription based MMO. I don't play Pay 2 win MMOs (or other games for that matter) but we have seen recent examples TF2 and League of Legends on how to do it right. 

Originally posted by SuprGamerX

  What I mean is that MMO's these days are all about solo play , so if someone is able to solo a certain dungeon then that person will hog most of the players to play with. 

You realise that GW2 scales players to content right? And that explorable dungeons are rock hard mode? Nobody is going to be soloing dungeons in GW2. These dungeons are designed to be difficult for a full group. If it happens to be a level 35 dungeon and the players are all level 80, they're scaled down to 35 to keep the difficulty level applicable.

Originally posted by Kalfer

Originally posted by SuprGamerX

 Heh , we call that having fear of being out-owned. What I mean is that MMO's these days are all about solo play , so if someone is able to solo a certain dungeon then that person will hog most of the players to play with.  Why join someone with a rusted Civic when you can join someone with a new V8 Mustang? 

 People fail to realise how much a cash shop destroys a community in a MMO , but ya'll keep supporting them cash shops anyways. If you think GW2 will be the next holy grail , your way off your mark.

 People think it's cool to put money on virtual goods to be the "best" player , but in the end ,you end with having fake friends that only use you.  The days where you had to grind your ass off to prove yourself are way behind us , just put a few hundreds on a MMO and you'll be more popular then Justin Bieber , with no skills like Bieber.

Your car examples is about some weird form of materialistic wealth. I can only tell you that elitism is a syndrom that is thriving in any subscription based MMO. I don't play Pay 2 win MMOs (or other games for that matter) but we have seen recent examples TF2 and League of Legends on how to do it right. 

 

 

How much does Tf2 and LoL cost to buy?

Originally posted by Kalfer

 

This is were you lose your credibility. Saying something as silly as this simply laughable. 

It isn't laughable.  It is just business.  There isn't a single P2W player that would say the game they are currently playing is more fun not using the cash shop. 

It constitutes that people would think it would be fun to rush through the game. The game is created to have the pace they are set for the use without these things. There is no monthly fee they are dependant on. They gain nothing on having the majority who will not touch this shop, have a bad experience, as they wont be back for DLC and expansions. 

 They mostly certainly do gain by not keeping people that don't pay for items around.  A dead server with paying customers is better than a full server with few paying customers.   Why do you think the P2W payment model is so attractive?   It doesn't matter how full the server is as long as the paying customers stay happy.  That isn't difficult as long as developers give them advantages over others.  

Originally posted by evicton

Originally posted by Kalfer

Originally posted by SuprGamerX

 Heh , we call that having fear of being out-owned. What I mean is that MMO's these days are all about solo play , so if someone is able to solo a certain dungeon then that person will hog most of the players to play with.  Why join someone with a rusted Civic when you can join someone with a new V8 Mustang? 

 People fail to realise how much a cash shop destroys a community in a MMO , but ya'll keep supporting them cash shops anyways. If you think GW2 will be the next holy grail , your way off your mark.

 People think it's cool to put money on virtual goods to be the "best" player , but in the end ,you end with having fake friends that only use you.  The days where you had to grind your ass off to prove yourself are way behind us , just put a few hundreds on a MMO and you'll be more popular then Justin Bieber , with no skills like Bieber.

Your car examples is about some weird form of materialistic wealth. I can only tell you that elitism is a syndrom that is thriving in any subscription based MMO. I don't play Pay 2 win MMOs (or other games for that matter) but we have seen recent examples TF2 and League of Legends on how to do it right. 

 

How much does Tf2 and LoL cost to buy?

What do you think?

But that's besides the point. the context was cash shop. f2p or b2p is unimportant homie:)

Originally posted by thinktank001

 They mostly certainly do gain by not keeping people that don't pay for items around.  A dead server with paying customers is better than a full server with few paying customers.   Why do you think the P2W payment model is so attractive?   It doesn't matter how full the server is as long as the paying customers stay happy.  That isn't difficult as long as developers give them advantages over others.  

Remember, that the business model is still campaigns, not the cash shop mainly. I think it's between 1 and 10% who will ever engage in a Cash Shop. So retention is not cash shop or subscription, its making a satisfying product that makes people want to buy the next product. and thats a good thing. because arenanets success is only as good as the last campaign they made.

didnt like Factions? Well good because you could skip it (thus voting with your wallet) and Anet could fix the problems in the next one. you werent forced or gimped by not buying it! They kept their word on that. 

And I havent seen a developer be so straight and fair in all my years of online RPGing. 

Originally posted by Kalfer

Originally posted by thinktank001

 They mostly certainly do gain by not keeping people that don't pay for items around.  A dead server with paying customers is better than a full server with few paying customers.   Why do you think the P2W payment model is so attractive?   It doesn't matter how full the server is as long as the paying customers stay happy.  That isn't difficult as long as developers give them advantages over others.  

 

Remember, that the business model is still campaigns, not the cash shop mainly. I think it's between 1 and 10% who will ever engage in a Cash Shop. So retention is not cash shop or subscription, its making a satisfying product that makes people want to buy the next product. and thats a good thing. because arenanets success is only as good as the last campaign they made.

didnt like Factions? Well good because you could skip it (thus voting with your wallet) and Anet could fix the problems in the next one. you werent forced or gimped by not buying it! They kept their word on that. 

And I havent seen a developer be so straight and fair in all my years of online RPGing. 

That may have been the way it was in gw1 but that games cash shop was tacked on. This games cash shop was integrated into the game from the ground up they did not design the cash shop directly into the game for it not to be a major part of their business model. 

These arguements are so dumb...

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMEONE WHO LEVELS FASTER OR CLEARS CONTENT FASTER THAN YOU REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE USING A BOOST OR NOT.

There is no Rat Race here folks, you can get the same weapons as everyone else can, some might get them before you do... that doesnt make it unfair, thats just the way of the world, online and offline.

Also, the gold arguement is so thin... Who cares whether someone can buy more blueprints in WvW than some other guy... they still need build it. And guess what, that blueprint someone just bought and built - I looted it off a player I just killed, and saved myself X amount of gold.

It is actually disheartening how many people are unable to think logically (or objectively) about this subject.

Originally posted by Kreedz

These arguements are so dumb...

 

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMEONE WHO LEVELS FASTER OR CLEARS CONTENT FASTER THAN YOU REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE USING A BOOST OR NOT.

 

There is no Rat Race here folks, you can get the same weapons as everyone else can, some might get them before you do... that doesnt make it unfair, thats just the way of the world, online and offline.

 

Also, the gold arguement is so thin... Who cares whether someone can buy more blueprints in WvW than some other guy... they still need build it. And guess what, that blueprint someone just bought and built - I looted it off a player I just killed, and saved myself X amount of gold.

 

It is actually disheartening how many people are unable to think logically (or objectively) about this subject.

 

I agree its dumb,

Pay to win or not depends on the player and is subjective. Unless the player is competing in some way nothing is pay to win. It makes no difference how many or how offensive advantages they sell in the cash shop. Some will always feel it makes no difference and that they dont need to buy it. That they can accept any and all limitations and have fun anyway.

On the other hand different players can compete in several different ways. They have different playstyles. Player B:s competion could be pointless and boring for player A. Your competion could be to become the best crafter on the server, have more gold than anyone, be first to max level, be the best PvP player, kill the most difficult PvE mobs or almost anything that someone for some reason wants to focus on. It could be common or uncommon...

So its impossible to agree if some item they sell in a CS is P2W or not. There will probably always be some that think it is and others that think its not. And this is also true for the CS in any game.

There will always be some that think any possible advantage is wrong and bad. And it makes no difference if they personally think its p2W or not. Because they dont like the CS business model in general.

Originally posted by Hurvart

So its impossible to agree if some item they sell in a CS is P2W or not. There will probably always be some that think it is and others that think its not. And this is also true for the CS in any game.

Perhaps.  But it's possible for players to agree that the major forces in the MMO game are driving in the direction that most fear, rather than away from it; and they have been chipping away at their own integrity for quite some time.

It's another small and meaningless step.  Another company, or another time, we'll take the next.

---

Originally posted by Randallt3mp

And in regards to the question a previous poster asked:  Why are they selling xp boost items if the leveling curve is entirely horrizontal and people that are higher than you in progress and level are at no advantage?  If its true then the xp items in the CS have no purpose and therefore no one will buy them...

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Because those arguing for cheating are dishonest people. Seriously, what did you expect? They are cheaters for god sake.

I have seen cheaters arguing for why they should be allowed to cheat and how it doesn't negatively effect anyone else. Except that at the end of the day, they know and we know that everything in human society is about relative measures, and they cheat to get that relative advantage.

In regards to your question, they use the "max level" argument to hide the true facts that the xp boost is just for the small part that is leveling. After you reach max level there are the gold and other boosts to give you further time savings up until the day you quit playing. Of course, cheater proponents of the specific game in question love to argue that their game is "horizontal progression" so gold/time doesn't matter. Which is a plain false statement. Seriously, GW1 which is a horizontal progression game has some of the most potent gold/time sinks I have ever seen.

---

Originally posted by Serelisk
Agreed, but I'm still a little confused what the OP means by "material sources of power". Coin, BoE, actual crafting material, experience?

---

But really, I prefer to just avoid the whole "what constitutes winning" argument all together as it just gives opportunity for those who want the manipulate the word "win". Instead, just call it pay2cheat and watch the cheaters try to explain how it isn't cheating. They'll pretty quickly bring up the argument that it is implemented by the devlopers, so it isn't cheating. And at that time you can simply give the killing blow by calmly pointing out that developers has added cheats into single player games since the beginning of time.

The change in terminology is to ease the players who are not already on the RMT money train into the system. Cash shops that sell advantages and power are the way of the future, and I couldn't be happier. I don't have a whole lot of time to play between my numerous obligations, but I do have a lot of money, and why should your time be worth more than my money to developers?

What's going to keep the servers up and running and the developers well fed? Your time or my money?

You've already lost. Money speaks louder than... well, the speech of those who don't spend money. The sooner the rest of the market allows players to purchase advantages and power for their money the better off we'll all be. Choice is good.