Originally posted by dontadow

I don't mean this to be a silly question, its seriously something I don't now.  I keep reading people say Pay to win or buy to win.  I need to know what is "winning". I feel there's some major disconnect between what I have read about GW2 and what others believe it is.  If I can do something to win, it must mean that I can win.  So I am asking, particuarlly from people who believe the game is play2win, what exactly is winning.  

My reason for asking this is to figure out the thinking that makes someone say "this is pay to win". With so many pages of why this game is pay to win, I want to know what is winning, from both sides, what will happen to make u "win" the game. 

You are right. There is no way to "win" and little advantage to be had through gear or any other in game asset. People claiming that anything in the game is "Pay to Win" or even "Play to Win" are either misinformed or just being inflamatory, with no reguard for the facts. I guess for some people, their MMO being superior is "winning" and if a game comes along to challenge their assumptions that their game is "the best", they feel a need to attack the game that challenges their beliefs and assumptions.

I know this might be cliche.. Idk if anyone else said it.. but to answer your question is like trying to answer the question of life. Instead my answer to you would be something like a rhetorical question;

How do you win life?

MMo's are pretty much the same. They can rig the game to have a "winner" but that doesn't really fit in a mmorpg setting because it tries to mirror our world through fantasy.

Correct me if im wrong..

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by dontadow

I don't mean this to be a silly question, its seriously something I don't now.  I keep reading people say Pay to win or buy to win.  I need to know what is "winning". I feel there's some major disconnect between what I have read about GW2 and what others believe it is.  If I can do something to win, it must mean that I can win.  So I am asking, particuarlly from people who believe the game is play2win, what exactly is winning.  

My reason for asking this is to figure out the thinking that makes someone say "this is pay to win". With so many pages of why this game is pay to win, I want to know what is winning, from both sides, what will happen to make u "win" the game. 

You are right. There is no way to "win" and little advantage to be had through gear or any other in game asset. People claiming that anything in the game is "Pay to Win" or even "Play to Win" are either misinformed or just being inflamatory, with no reguard for the facts. I guess for some people, their MMO being superior is "winning" and if a game comes along to challenge their assumptions that their game is "the best", they feel a need to attack the game that challenges their beliefs and assumptions.

There are two sides to every coin. I also see the constant 'GW2 is better than your game' comments irritating people because what is better is after all matter of taste and prespective. You can not clap with one hand.

Originally posted by Alphamojo

You win everytime by walking away from the game periodically, and enjoy real life sitiuations with real friends, and family.

 HAHAHAHA

April Fools...Right?

Originally posted by dontadow

This keeps coming across my mind.  I want logical, non flaming answers. With the way Guild Wars 2 is built, not being gear based, not having a strong gold influence, what do you consider "winning" at it.  Does winning at a game like GW 2 mean that others are losing? 

I think of this question because itssomething we joke about in tabletop dungeons and dragons.  I run across a new player oncee a year who builds this broken character, and we have to explain how he's not playing against the other people but with them, so it doesnt matter how powerful his character is, it has to be able to work well with others.  So long as everyone has a chance to shine in dungeons and dragons, all players are considered winning. I assumed this to be the case in guild wars 2. 

IN other mmos i have played it was easy to see winning, especially the real play to win games. Runes of magic i won when i had tons of defense for my armor. In Rift when i reached level 50 and had tier 3 armor.  But I don'[t see the winning aspect of GW2. 

oh good lord, i'm not flaming but it's one of those dumb questions my roommate asks me off and on when he wants to annoy me and he knows darn well what mmo's are like. There is not a game over in mmo's end-game is just a metaphor it never ends, so no there is no winning a game. Even when they bring out a final boss of a raid set of bosses it's never really the final boss. Just look at Cata, they are now coming out with yet ANOTHER expansion even tho they've really done everything in the WoW lexicon of lore in the game already now they are bringing out a joke that was in WWC 3 and making it a reality to keep the game going.

Saying there's an end to mmo's is like saying there's an end to the car industry, they will just keep putting out more cars forever and there won't ever be the last car.

Now if you are talking about the "time investment reward system" that's not in here because like most, Anet developers are tired of the whole elitest jerk thing so if you are one of those who:

1. likes to gank people after farming gear from pvp deaths
2. runs raids not for progression but to get legendary gear so you're friends can drool at you
3. does 500 rep dailies to get a mount that's impossible to farm without no life and no job

this game is not for you.

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by Amjoco

As Kramer said, "You just blew my mind"! lol   In that term winning is using the items in a cash shop to your own advantage over others.

So when I use the items I win? 

Ingame, but they're just unimportant / starter stuff. If you really enjoy the game, you better not buy anything in the cash shop, and try to spend some time gathering equivalent shiny stuff by exploration. Plus, this time spent ingame will also bring you higher quality items than cash shop ones, on top of that.

And you know that how? is that official from Anet? can i read about it?

Cash shop "armors" don't have stats. They are purchased for the look they offer and players will use transmutation stones to combine the desired look with the stats of an item with the desired stats.

There are rarity tiers for gear, but the power disparity is relatively minor. An item may be rare for it's appearance, not just it's stats. I've also heard that Dungeon Rewards Gear, in addition to rare cosmetics, also may offer more focused stats than most other gear, while the overall power level will be the same as rares aquired elsewhere. This would have more appeal to some players than others.

Originally posted by dontadow

This keeps coming across my mind.  I want logical, non flaming answers. With the way Guild Wars 2 is built, not being gear based, not having a strong gold influence, what do you consider "winning" at it.  Does winning at a game like GW 2 mean that others are losing?

Winning is having fun.

It's not a traditional "gear grind" or "achievement grind" where you are slowly conditioned into deriving pleasure from being rewarded for certain behaviours, then they make the rewards harder and harder to get and you just keep pushing and grinding the same behaviours repeatedly, often forgetting whatever rewards conditioned you into this behaviour in the start, and not considering you are not having any fun at all.

GW2 offers single buy freedom as opposed to subscriber based slavery.

There is no victory condition for MMOs, good ones at least, so you can't win them.  But  I suppose it's possible to achieve a state of win, if you can look back on the last few months of playing and wonder where all the time went.

In the first game after the missions, the goal for many was to get the most EXPENSIVE armor you could get in the game, which was FOW armor and 15k armor. The price was so high on it because the obsidian and ecto was hard to get and they looked so goood. So to answer your question, buy gems with money in GW2 and buy the good looking sets off the cash shop or in the game.

PvP - Win at pvp, win at WvW by buying gems and buying siege equipment for your guild or your server.

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by Amjoco

As Kramer said, "You just blew my mind"! lol   In that term winning is using the items in a cash shop to your own advantage over others.

So when I use the items I win? 

Ingame, but they're just unimportant / starter stuff. If you really enjoy the game, you better not buy anything in the cash shop, and try to spend some time gathering equivalent shiny stuff by exploration. Plus, this time spent ingame will also bring you higher quality items than cash shop ones, on top of that.

And you know that how? is that official from Anet? can i read about it?

Cash shop "armors" don't have stats. They are purchased for the look they offer and players will use transmutation stones to combine the desired look with the stats of an item with the desired stats.

There are rarity tiers for gear, but the power disparity is relatively minor. An item may be rare for it's appearance, not just it's stats. I've also heard that Dungeon Rewards Gear, in addition to rare cosmetics, also may offer more focused stats than most other gear, while the overall power level will be the same as rares aquired elsewhere. This would have more appeal to some players than others.

Good clarification. May I add that anyone with a brain who has followed GW2's dev blogs would guess that ANet simply don't want to screw their game. Giving access to top tier gear with the cash shop would simply be suicide. Every decent game designer knows that. And I don't think ANet does want to screw their 5 years long effort with a goddamn shop.

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by dontadow

I don't mean this to be a silly question, its seriously something I don't now.  I keep reading people say Pay to win or buy to win.  I need to know what is "winning". I feel there's some major disconnect between what I have read about GW2 and what others believe it is.  If I can do something to win, it must mean that I can win.  So I am asking, particuarlly from people who believe the game is play2win, what exactly is winning.  

My reason for asking this is to figure out the thinking that makes someone say "this is pay to win". With so many pages of why this game is pay to win, I want to know what is winning, from both sides, what will happen to make u "win" the game. 

You are right. There is no way to "win" and little advantage to be had through gear or any other in game asset. People claiming that anything in the game is "Pay to Win" or even "Play to Win" are either misinformed or just being inflamatory, with no reguard for the facts. I guess for some people, their MMO being superior is "winning" and if a game comes along to challenge their assumptions that their game is "the best", they feel a need to attack the game that challenges their beliefs and assumptions.

There are two sides to every coin. I also see the constant 'GW2 is better than your game' comments irritating people because what is better is after all matter of taste and prespective. You can not clap with one hand.

I can extoll the virtues of a game and applaud the innovations it brings to the genre, with out attacking other games. Nor do I feel any need to attack other games that may, or may not, offer their own innovations. The Secret World looks interesting to me. My current focus on GW2 has prevented me from digging too deep on that title, but I'm not going to go attack it because it's success would some how detract from GW2. I gave Tera a shot in beta, didn't care for it, shared a couple posts on what I didn't like, acknowledged that there are things in it others will like and moved on. It is possible to be a proponent of a game and even seek to challenge misinformation, with out it becoming "my game vs. your game".

I don't claim that the GW2 community is free from such a mentality, people are people, but that doesn't justify others matching "idiocy" with "idiocy".

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by Amjoco

As Kramer said, "You just blew my mind"! lol   In that term winning is using the items in a cash shop to your own advantage over others.

So when I use the items I win? 

Ingame, but they're just unimportant / starter stuff. If you really enjoy the game, you better not buy anything in the cash shop, and try to spend some time gathering equivalent shiny stuff by exploration. Plus, this time spent ingame will also bring you higher quality items than cash shop ones, on top of that.

And you know that how? is that official from Anet? can i read about it?

Cash shop "armors" don't have stats. They are purchased for the look they offer and players will use transmutation stones to combine the desired look with the stats of an item with the desired stats.

There are rarity tiers for gear, but the power disparity is relatively minor. An item may be rare for it's appearance, not just it's stats. I've also heard that Dungeon Rewards Gear, in addition to rare cosmetics, also may offer more focused stats than most other gear, while the overall power level will be the same as rares aquired elsewhere. This would have more appeal to some players than others.

Good clarification. May I add that anyone with a brain who has followed GW2's dev blogs would guess that ANet simply don't want to screw their game. Giving access to top tier gear with the cash shop would simply be suicide. Every decent game designer knows that. And I don't think ANet does want to screw their 5 years long effort with a goddamn shop.

Let us say we don't have brain where is official info about this? its been a long time since i have stoped believing the fans and rather read what is official statement by the company. So if you got links please don't be shy to share. I would like to know what kind of higher quality items comapred to cash shop shop a player can get just by playing the game.

Originally posted by Betakodo

In the first game after the missions, the goal for many was to get the most EXPENSIVE armor you could get in the game, which was FOW armor and 15k armor. The price was so high on it because the obsidian and ecto was hard to get and they looked so goood. So to answer your question, buy gems with money in GW2 and buy the good looking sets off the cash shop or in the game.

PvP - Win at pvp, win at WvW by buying gems and buying siege equipment for your guild or your server.

I've heard that dungeon sets, likely to be the most sought after sets in the game, are BoP and can't be traded.  Also, if you want a piece, you must trade your tokens in to a vendor who only becomes available after you've completed the dungeon.  Not true?

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by fiontar

Cash shop "armors" don't have stats. They are purchased for the look they offer and players will use transmutation stones to combine the desired look with the stats of an item with the desired stats.

There are rarity tiers for gear, but the power disparity is relatively minor. An item may be rare for it's appearance, not just it's stats. I've also heard that Dungeon Rewards Gear, in addition to rare cosmetics, also may offer more focused stats than most other gear, while the overall power level will be the same as rares aquired elsewhere. This would have more appeal to some players than others.

Good clarification. May I add that anyone with a brain who has followed GW2's dev blogs would guess that ANet simply don't want to screw their game. Giving access to top tier gear with the cash shop would simply be suicide. Every decent game designer knows that. And I don't think ANet does want to screw their 5 years long effort with a goddamn shop.

Let us say we don't have brain where is official info about this? its been a long time since i have stoped believing the fans and rather read what is official statement by the company. So if you got links please don't be shy to share. I would like to know what kind of higher quality items comapred to cash shop shop a player can get just by playing the game.

I just googled "Guild Wars 2 Cash Shop", and clicked on the 6th link :

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/cash-shop-items-leak-t32319.html

I don't see any super duper top tier gear here. Maybe the "increase your chance to find rare items by 10% for 1 hour ... But never in the world could you match that chance per hour ratio against a dedicated player who just spends time simply exploring (unless you're incredibly rich). Also, common sense would tell that things like the "Mystic Key" will be obtainable ingame too.

(oh and by having a brain I just wanted to mean "having common sense", no offense intended)

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by Amjoco

As Kramer said, "You just blew my mind"! lol   In that term winning is using the items in a cash shop to your own advantage over others.

So when I use the items I win? 

Ingame, but they're just unimportant / starter stuff. If you really enjoy the game, you better not buy anything in the cash shop, and try to spend some time gathering equivalent shiny stuff by exploration. Plus, this time spent ingame will also bring you higher quality items than cash shop ones, on top of that.

And you know that how? is that official from Anet? can i read about it?

Cash shop "armors" don't have stats. They are purchased for the look they offer and players will use transmutation stones to combine the desired look with the stats of an item with the desired stats.

There are rarity tiers for gear, but the power disparity is relatively minor. An item may be rare for it's appearance, not just it's stats. I've also heard that Dungeon Rewards Gear, in addition to rare cosmetics, also may offer more focused stats than most other gear, while the overall power level will be the same as rares aquired elsewhere. This would have more appeal to some players than others.

Good clarification. May I add that anyone with a brain who has followed GW2's dev blogs would guess that ANet simply don't want to screw their game. Giving access to top tier gear with the cash shop would simply be suicide. Every decent game designer knows that. And I don't think ANet does want to screw their 5 years long effort with a goddamn shop.

Let us say we don't have brain where is official info about this? its been a long time since i have stoped believing the fans and rather read what is official statement by the company. So if you got links please don't be shy to share. I would like to know what kind of higher quality items comapred to cash shop shop a player can get just by playing the game.

http://www.arena.net/blog/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2

Here’s our philosophy on microtransactions: We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items. But it’s never OK for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases, and it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time.

---

Originally posted by dontadow
I don't mean this to be a silly question, its seriously something I don't now.  I keep reading people say Pay to win or buy to win.  I need to know what is "winning". I feel there's some major disconnect between what I have read about GW2 and what others believe it is.  If I can do something to win, it must mean that I can win.  So I am asking, particuarlly from people who believe the game is play2win, what exactly is winning.  
My reason for asking this is to figure out the thinking that makes someone say "this is pay to win". With so many pages of why this game is pay to win, I want to know what is winning, from both sides, what will happen to make u "win" the game. 

---

Ho no, so my silly comment was actually what you was talking about in your OP post? *slap self with plank*.

Pay to win is just an other way to call free2play mmo. Mmo developed in a totally other manner than other rpg games. First they were very much so like rpg on computer. But some people just wanted games to play with and no problems. So they made games like rpg, death had little repercussion, you couldn't kill other player and stuff like that. That turned into winning level and winning better gear, because this became the center of those game like rpg. In 2k mmo became grind fest, where those 2 aspect was the center of those game, and pretty much all they have since all the old rpg aspect got wiped away (no more role to build your character, no more player communities in game, no more danger for you character, everything is perfectly cleaned to keep the easiet experience possible). Some people used this addictive aspect that was left (leveling and nice equipement) and made a commerce of it, they made free mmo, but you needed to buy cash shop items like xp potion to reach max level, have the best gear. Without those the leveling was so steep at the last level it was simply impossible to progress, it was like a wall and each death made you lost more xp than you gained, so xp pot was mandatory. So people began to say those are not free to play but pay to win. Thats how computer rpg turned into winning mess. Hope its clearer for you now.

edit, added few stuff to make it clearer hopefully.

Addition to the leaked cash shop I posted, found in the very same thread : 

Anet have stated that there is no item in the store that cannot be replicated in game, so mystic keys will be drops in addition to items in shop.

So basically, anyone who is ranting about the cash shop just lacks information (and should be slapped in the face for ranting without knowing).

Dude, you have already won when your playing the game. Think about it, you will know what I mean

My question is inspired by the whole cash shop discussion but seperate from it. No one talked about winning in GW2 before all this.  And now the subject is there, and I am trying to figure out or come to a consensus on what constitutes winning in this game. 

In Pay to Win games, I know what winning is. Runes of magic was pay to win.  You needed to buy these gems to make your armor. I was a tank, needed the best armor to do the best dungeons.   I knew I won when i was ranked as having the top 10 armor in the game.  It sucked from a play point of view. You really had to pay to get this armor.  Runes of magic was built around the concept on having thebest gear, I knew how to win.  IN rift, you can't do all the content without having tier 3 armor.  So winning means having tier 3 armor, which means playing a while. 

If Guild Wars 2 has a win condition. What is that win condition.  Whether you have gold, cash gems or whatever, if you can win the game, what does that mean to you? 

In the cash shop discussions, a lto of folk talk about playing to win.  I don't care about your opinion on the cash shop, I do want to know what do you think winning means in Guild Wars 2.   How do you win. 

Originally posted by k-damage

Addition to the leaked cash shop I posted, found in the very same thread : 

Anet have stated that there is no item in the store that cannot be replicated in game, so mystic keys will be drops in addition to items in shop.

So basically, anyone who is ranting about the cash shop just lacks information (and should be slapped in the face for ranting without knowing).

Have a link to the actual quote? AS in Anet actually saying it?