*Prefaced by saying that even though today is April1st, this isn't one of those posts*

A Zone is only defined by a loading screen, as i understand it, and an Instance is a Copy of a piece of the gameworld that not just anyone moving around can enter. Instance=Bad, Zone=?

The '?' is what this post is about. Why, is zoning a bad thing? I understand in the near future everyone might have the technology to have an awesome, detailed, high graphical world packed with Dynamic Events, but in today's technology, we don't, or dev's choose not to use it, if it exists. I assume since almost every game has zones/loading screens, it's because it limits them somewhow.

So why are so many people in an uproar over 'Open World' this and 'Open World' that? Because it is Zoned, that makes it not an open world? Can you not go wherever you want, whenever you want? Are people confused on the difference between zoned, and instanced? I can understand why instanced is bad. Everyone gets there own instance, no random player encounters, whatever. I get that.

Why is it a gamebreaker for so many because there is a loading screen between the MASSIVE zones? Does that ONE, little loading screen, bug people that much? As i understand it, zoning doesnt seperate players, or do any of the evil's that instancing does.

I also get that in SWTOR, the loading screens you have to endure before doing pretty much anything is a pain. THAT many loading screens would piss me off too. But in GW2, it isn't nearly that bad.

Help me understand, great MMORPG.com Vet's and knowledgable folks!

TL:DR

To me, Zoning doesn't make a game NOT an open world. To those who say it does, explain to me why it's SO important that you consider it gamebreaking. I'm open minded, maybe it's something I'M not getting, and not the other way round.

Immserion perhaps?

Also if you go from an ice zone to a forest zone with a loading screen separating it and no terrain transition I could see how that would totally ruin immersion. Because then you really don''t have an open world feel but they really are separate zones. Not saying GW2 is like that.

I have no problem with GW2,it's the same system as EQ2 but GW2 can never be called an open world MMO,it has instanced dungeons.

A true open world MMO has open world dungeons and not one instance in the game plus no zoning between areas.

Originally posted by Toxia

So why are so many people in an uproar over 'Open World' this and 'Open World' that? Because it is Zoned, that makes it not an open world? Can you not go wherever you want, whenever you want? Are people confused on the difference between zoned, and instanced? I can understand why instanced is bad. Everyone gets there own instance, no random player encounters, whatever. I get that.

Why is it a gamebreaker for so many because there is a loading screen between the MASSIVE zones? Does that ONE, little loading screen, bug people that much? As i understand it, zoning doesnt seperate players, or do any of the evil's that instancing does.

Becuase some apparently still can't tell the difference between "zone" and "instance".

Originally posted by thekid1

Immserion perhaps?

Also if you go from an ice zone to a forest zone with a loading screen separating it and no terrain transition I could see how that would totally ruin immersion. Because then you really don''t have an open world feel but they really are separate zones. Not saying GW2 is like that.

thats not always true though, in games like ffxi zones would taper off into the next on before you actually zoned. i could see how that could be a problem in some though.

and i never got "immersion breaking"  every game is immersion breaking if your trying to be a part of the world. wether it be system messages. a chat log that records what everyone said even if there not close to you, npc standing in the same place for years on end.

Originally posted by thekid1

Immserion perhaps?

Also if you go from an ice zone to a forest zone with a loading screen separating it and no terrain transition I could see how that would totally ruin immersion. Because then you really don''t have an open world feel but they really are separate zones. Not saying GW2 is like that.

So it's for immersion. I can understand that. i roleplay on second life and in other games, so immersion, is DEFINETELY, something i GET.

But, i think immersion, in this sense, is just an excuse. How can you be immersed with XxYOMOMMAxX 's running around everywhere? How can you be immersed with A health bar, and a bar full of 'skills' that every other character has? How can you be immersed when your character wears the same armor, at the same level, and has the same minipet's, etc, that EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

In a true roleplaying game, like, say , Second Life, your character is totally unique, and you have none of those limitations mentioned above. I can understand that in THAT game, breaking Immersion is a no no. People play second life to roleplay, pretty much. The ones that stick around, anwyays.

But in this((GW2))  type of Adventure game, Immersion doesnt really apply. Hardly anyone is going to run around roleplaying((Yes hardly is subjective, but we can agree that MOST players wont be roleplaying)), So why is Immersion even a factor?

EDIT: Immersion- Wanting to FEEL like you are your character, in the game world, REALLY fighting against all these evils. <-that is my definition of immersion. With the points mentioned above, how can one seriously say immersion is an excuse?

Originally posted by Methos12

Originally posted by Toxia

So why are so many people in an uproar over 'Open World' this and 'Open World' that? Because it is Zoned, that makes it not an open world? Can you not go wherever you want, whenever you want? Are people confused on the difference between zoned, and instanced? I can understand why instanced is bad. Everyone gets there own instance, no random player encounters, whatever. I get that.

Why is it a gamebreaker for so many because there is a loading screen between the MASSIVE zones? Does that ONE, little loading screen, bug people that much? As i understand it, zoning doesnt seperate players, or do any of the evil's that instancing does.

Becuase some apparently still can't tell the difference between "zone" and "instance".

I agree.The amount of people that don't know the differance from a zone to an instance is laughable.I had this convo with an x swtor fanboy the other day who really had no clue about the differance between the two.

Originally posted by Toxia

Originally posted by thekid1

Immserion perhaps?

Also if you go from an ice zone to a forest zone with a loading screen separating it and no terrain transition I could see how that would totally ruin immersion. Because then you really don''t have an open world feel but they really are separate zones. Not saying GW2 is like that.

So it's for immersion. I can understand that. i roleplay on second life and in other games, so immersion, is DEFINETELY, something i GET.

But, i think immersion, in this sense, is just an excuse. How can you be immersed with XxYOMOMMAxX 's running around everywhere? How can you be immersed with A health bar, and a bar full of 'skills' that every other character has? How can you be immersed when your character wears the same armor, at the same level, and has the same minipet's, etc, that EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

In a true roleplaying game, like, say , Second Life, your character is totally unique, and you have none of those limitations mentioned above. I can understand that in THAT game, breaking Immersion is a no no. People play second life to roleplay, pretty much. The ones that stick around, anwyays.

But in this((GW2))  type of Adventure game, Immersion doesnt really apply. Hardly anyone is going to run around roleplaying((Yes hardly is subjective, but we can agree that MOST players wont be roleplaying)), So why is Immersion even a factor?

EDIT: Immersion- Wanting to FEEL like you are your character, in the game world, REALLY fighting against all these evils. <-that is my definition of immersion. With the points mentioned above, how can one seriously say immersion is an excuse?

Heh. I guess it's all about immersion or better said suspension of disbelief.

I have no issue with loading screens at all, but other people might dislike get out of it when a loading screen takes longer than 10 seconds or every few minutes. Others are so used to MMO's having practically no loading screens happening because of having played LotrO and WoW, that when an MMO uses zones or loading screens more often, it already feels like too much. Everyone's points of irritation that bring their being into the game down are different, just like the things that make up the core of their gaming immersion.

For some it's the fluidness and responsiveness of their controls, for others the convincing nature of their character graphics and environment, again for others it's whether the world feels segmented and artificial due to zones and loading screens or more organic due to background loading.

Originally posted by Sylvarii

I have no problem with GW2,it's the same system as EQ2 but GW2 can never be called an open world MMO,it has instanced dungeons.

A true open world MMO has open world dungeons and not one instance in the game plus no zoning between areas.

The highlighted point i can understand. It can't be called open world, because it has Instanced Dungeons.

So, now instead of my points being why is it not an open world, and why is it bad, i only have...Why is it BAD to have instanced dungeons? IF that is the only instances that the game has, i am HAPPY with that fact.

I don't have to 'accept' that and lower my standards, but i am HAPPY because they did this. Why? So there aren't LINES of people waiting in the dungeon for X mob to spawn, so they can all zerg and try and kill it, then the next group has to wait, etc. With this in place, EVERYONE can have their own dungeon elite mob, boss, whatever you call it.

So, the only question i have left, to those who say it is a BAD thing that they instanced this area, WHY is it bad?

As i said, i'm open minded ^_^. Help me understand. Much like the open world fact i now understand, continue to shine the light on me !

Originally posted by Toxia

Originally posted by Sylvarii

I have no problem with GW2,it's the same system as EQ2 but GW2 can never be called an open world MMO,it has instanced dungeons.

A true open world MMO has open world dungeons and not one instance in the game plus no zoning between areas.

The highlighted point i can understand. It can't be called open world, because it has Instanced Dungeons.

So, now instead of my points being why is it not an open world, and why is it bad, i only have...Why is it BAD to have instanced dungeons? IF that is the only instances that the game has, i am HAPPY with that fact.

I don't have to 'accept' that and lower my standards, but i am HAPPY because they did this. Why? So there aren't LINES of people waiting in the dungeon for X mob to spawn, so they can all zerg and try and kill it, then the next group has to wait, etc. With this in place, EVERYONE can have their own dungeon elite mob, boss, whatever you call it.

So, the only question i have left, to those who say it is a BAD thing that they instanced this area, WHY is it bad?

As i said, i'm open minded ^_^. Help me understand. Much like the open world fact i now understand, continue to shine the light on me !

 

open WORLD refers to the WORLD not the dungeons which in any game I have ever played are considered different. Non instanced dungeons are just plain bad for everyone.

Originally posted by Toxia

Originally posted by thekid1

Immserion perhaps?

Also if you go from an ice zone to a forest zone with a loading screen separating it and no terrain transition I could see how that would totally ruin immersion. Because then you really don''t have an open world feel but they really are separate zones. Not saying GW2 is like that.

So it's for immersion. I can understand that. i roleplay on second life and in other games, so immersion, is DEFINETELY, something i GET.

But, i think immersion, in this sense, is just an excuse. How can you be immersed with XxYOMOMMAxX 's running around everywhere? How can you be immersed with A health bar, and a bar full of 'skills' that every other character has? How can you be immersed when your character wears the same armor, at the same level, and has the same minipet's, etc, that EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

In a true roleplaying game, like, say , Second Life, your character is totally unique, and you have none of those limitations mentioned above. I can understand that in THAT game, breaking Immersion is a no no. People play second life to roleplay, pretty much. The ones that stick around, anwyays.

But in this((GW2))  type of Adventure game, Immersion doesnt really apply. Hardly anyone is going to run around roleplaying((Yes hardly is subjective, but we can agree that MOST players wont be roleplaying)), So why is Immersion even a factor?

EDIT: Immersion- Wanting to FEEL like you are your character, in the game world, REALLY fighting against all these evils. <-that is my definition of immersion. With the points mentioned above, how can one seriously say immersion is an excuse?

Well you have different levels of immersion. It's not like there is an immersion on and off switch. I know when I play Fallout New Vegas I am playing a game, I see a health bar, I alt tab when stuck on a quest. But there is still a certain level of immersion. If one of the NPC's in that game for instance get's stuck on a rock, a bit of immersion is lost for me.

But perhaps I'm using the term immersion to loose. For me it's not only about roleplaying but also getting drawn in to a game and I rather not see the strings on the puppets. (aka loading screens and bugs, etc.) Compare it to seeing the stunt double in a movie.

Originally posted by Sylvarii

I have no problem with GW2,it's the same system as EQ2 but GW2 can never be called an open world MMO,it has instanced dungeons.

A true open world MMO has open world dungeons and not one instance in the game plus no zoning between areas.

I have no problem with zones; in many MMO cases they lead to a more interesting world, with less copy paste art. The way I look at it is, if you're not going to do an open world properly, IE: Skyrim, you might as well not do it at all.

Originally posted by Toxia

Originally posted by Sylvarii

I have no problem with GW2,it's the same system as EQ2 but GW2 can never be called an open world MMO,it has instanced dungeons.

A true open world MMO has open world dungeons and not one instance in the game plus no zoning between areas.

The highlighted point i can understand. It can't be called open world, because it has Instanced Dungeons.

So, now instead of my points being why is it not an open world, and why is it bad, i only have...Why is it BAD to have instanced dungeons? IF that is the only instances that the game has, i am HAPPY with that fact.

I don't have to 'accept' that and lower my standards, but i am HAPPY because they did this. Why? So there aren't LINES of people waiting in the dungeon for X mob to spawn, so they can all zerg and try and kill it, then the next group has to wait, etc. With this in place, EVERYONE can have their own dungeon elite mob, boss, whatever you call it.

So, the only question i have left, to those who say it is a BAD thing that they instanced this area, WHY is it bad?

As i said, i'm open minded ^_^. Help me understand. Much like the open world fact i now understand, continue to shine the light on me !

 

I'm with ya man,nothing wrong with them if thats what the dev want to do.

Originally posted by ariboersma

Originally posted by Toxia

Originally posted by Sylvarii

I have no problem with GW2,it's the same system as EQ2 but GW2 can never be called an open world MMO,it has instanced dungeons.

A true open world MMO has open world dungeons and not one instance in the game plus no zoning between areas.

The highlighted point i can understand. It can't be called open world, because it has Instanced Dungeons.

So, now instead of my points being why is it not an open world, and why is it bad, i only have...Why is it BAD to have instanced dungeons? IF that is the only instances that the game has, i am HAPPY with that fact.

I don't have to 'accept' that and lower my standards, but i am HAPPY because they did this. Why? So there aren't LINES of people waiting in the dungeon for X mob to spawn, so they can all zerg and try and kill it, then the next group has to wait, etc. With this in place, EVERYONE can have their own dungeon elite mob, boss, whatever you call it.

So, the only question i have left, to those who say it is a BAD thing that they instanced this area, WHY is it bad?

As i said, i'm open minded ^_^. Help me understand. Much like the open world fact i now understand, continue to shine the light on me !

 

open WORLD refers to the WORLD not the dungeons which in any game I have ever played are considered different. Non instanced dungeons are just plain bad for everyone.

Rubbish lol,you don't know what you are talking about.

The world is the world and instance dungeons are seperate so that makes the world non open.Dont know what games you have been playing but i can guess.

Non instance dungeons are not bad at all.

A mmo with instances is not an open world mmo,an mmo that only lets you go from zone to zone by loading is not an open world.

I am an avid GW2 fan and have no problem with the set up but i aint about to play the blind fanboy part and try to argue the case that GW2 is open world...

It''s not.

Countless arguments, but who really cares?!

Originally posted by Toxia

Originally posted by Sylvarii

I have no problem with GW2,it's the same system as EQ2 but GW2 can never be called an open world MMO,it has instanced dungeons.

A true open world MMO has open world dungeons and not one instance in the game plus no zoning between areas.

The highlighted point i can understand. It can't be called open world, because it has Instanced Dungeons.

So, now instead of my points being why is it not an open world, and why is it bad, i only have...Why is it BAD to have instanced dungeons? IF that is the only instances that the game has, i am HAPPY with that fact.

I don't have to 'accept' that and lower my standards, but i am HAPPY because they did this. Why? So there aren't LINES of people waiting in the dungeon for X mob to spawn, so they can all zerg and try and kill it, then the next group has to wait, etc. With this in place, EVERYONE can have their own dungeon elite mob, boss, whatever you call it.

 

There are non-zoned/instance dungeons in GW's. To note there are no lines because everyone in the area if the participate will get credit. Which imo for a game going no-instances ever, this would be their next step in progressing. Stop the lines, give credit to the mob.

Originally posted by bongolin

Countless arguments, but who really cares?!

Sounds like you guys are arguing semantics, so I'll dip in with my take.  I always considering an "open world" MMO not in terms of zones, instances, and loading screens, but just in terms of  the way the world is laid out.  Is it wide open, non-linear, able to move in any direction without being "funnelled" from one quest hub to another through a narrow passage of mountains, streams, walls, etc.?  Then I consider it open.  

And I feel it's possible to have linear quest-hub questing and still have an open world, since the environment itself has nothing to do with the quest chain.  An example I'd give is TOR and LOTRO.  I enjoy the heck out of both of these games.  Currently playing TOR, and have played LOTRO for years. Both have a similar linear questing system:  A central quest line (story) that is used as the breadcrumb quest to guide you from one quest hub to the other, where you pick up the side quests to do as well.  But while TOR's environment is as linear as it gets ( painfully so, unfortunately), LOTRO has a nice open-world feel, with huge zones that are fully explorable and wide open.  Now, even though the actual questing in LOTRO is still linear, you are free to travel off the beaten path and explore.  So even though both games are linear in terms of questing, LOTRO still has an open world feel to it.  Vanguard:SOH is another example of an open world.

Now, in terms of games that don't have loading screens or instances, I use the term "seamless."  You transition from one area to the next, and there is never a break in immersion.  As you are leaving one zone, you can clearly see the next zone ahead of you, and the only knowledge you have that you crossed into a new zone would be text on the screen telling you that, or a change in the description on your mini map.  No loading screens, no instancing.  This is much rarer than a game with a wide open look, and much more difficult for a developer to accomplish.  

Anyway, that's my take.  Like I said, I think it's just a question of semantics.

Originally, most MMORPGs had load screens between zones. WoW was the first to really focus on fitting as many zones as possible into a single seemless area with as few load screens as possible. Not even WoW is completely seemless, however. There were a handful of load screens between certain areas even in Vanilla WoW and it's more so today, with all the expansions.

As far as immersion, WoW shows the compromises that need to be made to immersion by connecting zones with out loading screens. The zonal boundies are not gradual transitions, but fauna, flora and color schemes change abruptly upon crossing the boundy line.

GW2 already allows fast travel with out a cooldown timer. (Even WoW requires load screens for such instant travel). So, having load screens between zones is really not a big deal from an immersion perspective. Television, films, movies and most video games have transitions that zip vast distances and skip chunks of time, with out anyone complaining that by not playing out in real time immersion suffers.

Of course, game designers don't put in load screnes just to provide a narrative transition. There are technical reasons relating to the loading of game textures and assets on your computer hardware that require some time to process. When a game is designed to minimize load screens, other compromises need to be made to things like draw distance, polygon count of the various 3D models in the game and the quality and resolution of textures, not to mention the variety of assets the game can juggle. WoW may have few load screens, but it also has low polycount models and low resolution textures, not entirely related to the age of the game. (WoWs graphics were far from the best even at launch, but the cartoonish artistic style leveraged the limitations and found many fans).

Load Screen between zones allows for a much more detailed world, more detailed characters and a much larger variety of character appearances and choices for armor/weapons. Games with very little variety of armor usually are not so limited because they lacked the resources to create more options, but rather because the limitations of the game engine forced limits on the variety and level of detail the game could handle.

Its all about making compromises and leveraging your design decisions for maximum benefit. I think that Arenanet have done a superb job finding the best possible configuration to allow for a very detailed game world and oodles of aesthetic options for players. Load screens don't bother me at all, when I realize what we gain in return. Other games also have as many load screens, but offer us much less in compensation. Kudos to Arenanet.