http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa7it5WJfYQ

That should sum up player skill for you.

Originally posted by Loke666

There is clearly 2 things in MMOs that matters, how good you actually play and how good your toon is.

That some people prefer one or the other is only natural.

People that think a game should depend on twitch skills like ability to react, to aim, to move fast should play FPS games, IMO.

Rpg:s should focus on building and improving your character. Better items is part of that. The person with the better character should win..not the guy that can aim better and have lighning fast reactions.

So you got that off your chest, feel better now?

Your clearly WoW fan and new generation you dont want game time spent and then be rewarded for your sweat you put in for long sessions no thats unfair, but for you fair is no sweat no gametime but rewards anyway lol.

And WoW PVP is countersrike in safezone knowing constantly what will happen what opononent and know up front what they wear and stats plus no risk at all, for me thats no PvP.

Darkfall free for all full loot with RISK involved thats PvP for me but i hate cheaters and thats a huge problem in Darkfall more so then your carebear WoW GAME but its still lightyears ahead of PvP you like in WoW.

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by causs

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

Don't be daft. Chess is an olympic sport.

It took you long enough. i was just wondering how anyone didn't reply with 'CHESS is olympic sport'.

Since we are comparing gaming skills to those of pro athletes in sports, The day a video game comes up with complexity of chess and actually require that much concentration and mental stimulation  i would whole heartdly agree with you.

umm, target shooting. that's not exactly athletic.

yes, i shoot.

it didn't exactly build up any muscles short of perhaps my forearm. but then, i could argue mouse-clicking and keyboard-clacking is building up my hands.

to be honest, i get more of a workout skateboarding, which, by the way, isn't an olympic sport so you probably wouldn't class as athletic either. :(

to be serious, if you don't think there's a game which has the complexity of chess on the market, you must be playing the wrong games. pretty much any game with active pvp is as involving, if not more so. you are playing an opponent. you have to out-think them AND out-twitch them. and if THAT's not enough, there's eve. THAT takes tactics, calculated ambition, risk assessment and more bluffs than a poker tournament. and that just to leave a station.

and you argue about metagame. chess is itself about knowing the metagame. it's about having a hell of a memory as much as moving the pawns. look it up. you could argue a master chess player is simply cheating the metagame.

i wouldn't, but by your argument, i could.

give me an mmo and i will pvp its guts out. i don't consider myself to exploit anything.

the OP is arrogant and ignorant and probably loves wow pvp for the comfort of having invested time to acquire pvp gear which allows him to roll other players. i've said it once before, and i'll say it again, it amazes me that people talking about "skill" and bringing time into the equation always look up to wow and down at games like eve where time holds less of a significant advantage and actual skill (not just twitch, but skill at gaming in general) actually counts more. i really would love to see someone writing about "skill" and actually praising games which DO try to push the concept of skill>time. anyone making a valid argument around pvp should pretty much be in agreement that gear and time should always be taken out of the equation.

me, all i need to know i'm good is a nice scoreboard with big numbers and my name at the top. i don't want gear to help me steamroll. i don't need the devs to give me an iwin button for playing longer than everyone else. actually, i'd almost be willing to play a game which handicaps me - just to keep it interesting and keep my heart pumping.

i think where ALL these arguments fall down to me is, as with the OP, they always seem to be arguing for some kind of reward from the game for their TIME which gives them a significant advantage over other players as though the other players are somehow not worth their time.

personally, i think such arguments should go buy a vowel.

Originally posted by headphones

umm, target shooting. that's not exactly athletic.

yes, i shoot.

it didn't exactly build up any muscles short of perhaps my forearm. but then, i could argue mouse-clicking and keyboard-clacking is building up my hands.

to be honest, i get more of a workout skateboarding, which, by the way, isn't an olympic sport so you probably wouldn't class as athletic either. :(

to be serious, if you don't think there's a game which has the complexity of chess on the market, you must be playing the wrong games. pretty much any game with active pvp is as involving, if not more so. you are playing an opponent. you have to out-think them AND out-twitch them. and if THAT's not enough, there's eve. THAT takes tactics, calculated ambition, risk assessment and more bluffs than a poker tournament. and that just to leave a station.

and you argue about metagame. chess is itself about knowing the metagame. it's about having a hell of a memory as much as moving the pawns. look it up. you could argue a master chess player is simply cheating the metagame.

i wouldn't, but by your argument, i could.

give me an mmo and i will pvp its guts out. i don't consider myself to exploit anything.

the OP is arrogant and ignorant and probably loves wow pvp for the comfort of having invested time to acquire pvp gear which allows him to roll other players. i've said it once before, and i'll say it again, it amazes me that people talking about "skill" and bringing time into the equation always look up to wow and down at games like eve where time holds less of a significant advantage and actual skill (not just twitch, but skill at gaming in general) actually counts more. i really would love to see someone writing about "skill" and actually praising games which DO try to push the concept of skill>time. anyone making a valid argument around pvp should pretty much be in agreement that gear and time should always be taken out of the equation.

me, all i need to know i'm good is a nice scoreboard with big numbers and my name at the top. i don't want gear to help me steamroll. i don't need the devs to give me an iwin button for playing longer than everyone else. actually, i'd almost be willing to play a game which handicaps me - just to keep it interesting and keep my heart pumping.

i think where ALL these arguments fall down to me is, as with the OP, they always seem to be arguing for some kind of reward from the game for their TIME which gives them a significant advantage over other players as though the other players are somehow not worth their time.

personally, i think such arguments should go buy a vowel.

I never said chess players are not athletic but comparing a video gamer to chess player no sorry not going to accept that. People always say 'you are doing it wrong' when people refuse to agree with them. So yes i have played a lot of video games 'right' ones and the 'wrong ones' and so far nothing gives you the complexity of a chess game. OP was talking about fps players who can click the mouse faster and hardly about how much brain activity and thought process is involved in those games.

I see that you don't have a clue about wow pvp. If so like you said we will not have almost always same teams at top in arena pvp, 2vs2, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Almost all guys over 2k rating have same  top pvp gear and we cant say that this guys have some advantage in any way except in skills of playing. It is sbout fast reaction, taking care about cd-s and knowing all classes to be able to counter attack. You have all classes in top teams now- druids, mages, locks, priests, paladins, hunters, shamans, so i don't see any class missing there. For example--Blackout battlegroup we have now at top in 2vs2-- 1.Lock-Shaman. 2.Rogue-Priest. 3.Druid-Paladin exct. But if you look names you will find this guys always at the top.Conclusion-YES you need skills and expirience and not only fast reaction like in fps, you need knowledge and skills, it is science not luck

Originally posted by Ankur

I never said chess players are not athletic but comparing a video gamer to chess player no sorry not going to accept that.

Cool, your opinion is pretty well thought out.  It would be better if you didn't try to refute someone else's without any real reason.

It's cool to have your own opinion, it's even cool to weigh in on someone else's.  It isn't cool to simply dismiss someone else's opinion if your only reason is that it is different than yours.

Originally posted by Majinash

Originally posted by Ankur

I never said chess players are not athletic but comparing a video gamer to chess player no sorry not going to accept that.

Cool, your opinion is pretty well thought out.  It would be better if you didn't try to refute someone else's without any real reason.

 

It's cool to have your own opinion, it's even cool to weigh in on someone else's.  It isn't cool to simply dismiss someone else's opinion if your only reason is that it is different than yours.

Just like he dismissed my opinion by saying i am playing the wrong games? allright..you got me.

*rolls eyes*

Sounds like the OP got owned by someone in PVP

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by Majinash

Originally posted by Ankur

I never said chess players are not athletic but comparing a video gamer to chess player no sorry not going to accept that.

Cool, your opinion is pretty well thought out.  It would be better if you didn't try to refute someone else's without any real reason.

 

It's cool to have your own opinion, it's even cool to weigh in on someone else's.  It isn't cool to simply dismiss someone else's opinion if your only reason is that it is different than yours.

Just like he dismissed my opinion by saying i am playing the wrong games? allright..you got me.

*rolls eyes*

you are, though.

if you're playing games where you don't have to think, you're either playing very simple games or you don't do much pvp. see, pve i can see why you don't think. but i think you'd be hard-pressed to find a gamer who only plays games they don't find challenging.

you are, therefore, playing the wrong kinds of games or in the wrong way. do you spend a lot of time crafting?

i suggest before telling us how games are not as challenging as chess, that you play a few more instead of relying on possible pve wow? or you at least wear some greens into wow pvp midway through the season. and try eve. everyone should at least try it. even i tried it. i don't play it as much as you'd think, but i kind of prefer a fantasy setting to my games.

i dismissed your argument entirely because you display an elitist and irrational distaste of gamers and gaming in general that borders on ignorant as it demonstrated a lack of experience if you wish to maintain the view you had.

a chess player has an interesting mind, but it's a mind of memory. a gamer has to master memory and combine that with a whole variety of other skills. while playing poker and chess have their own skills, i'd put it to you that some games require those skills AND more. it's not just twitch these days. chess has extremely limited moves. gaming is something else.

seriously, i have a great deal of respect for chess players. they'd kick my butt at chess, i'm sure. wouldn't take much. but i reckon i could kick theirs in an mmo of their choosing. or fps. and i don't think i'd need to know any "metagame" to do it.

everything, whether it's skateboarding, shooting targets, chess, or gaming, involves skills of its own to master.

get your head out of the sand is what i'm saying.

only one thing in this whole thread is an example of a skill-less activity in gaming, and that's time. time you spend in-game should in no way be rewarded with gear. wow rewards your time with gear. it doesn't reward your skill.

time should help you master your skills. but, i maintain, shouldn't reward you with an iwin button that defeats the purpose of actually improving your skills.

so, be braver. accept the challenge. it's so much more fun when they can hit you back...

---

Originally posted by Loke666
There is clearly 2 things in MMOs that matters, how good you actually play and how good your toon is.
That some people prefer one or the other is only natural.

---

I really don't see this as an "OR" statement. It's "AND" all the way.

---

Originally posted by palulalula
I see that you don't have a clue about wow pvp. If so like you said we will not have almost always same teams at top in arena pvp, 2vs2, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Almost all guys over 2k rating have same  top pvp gear and we cant say that this guys have some advantage in any way except in skills of playing. It is sbout fast reaction, taking care about cd-s and knowing all classes to be able to counter attack. You have all classes in top teams now- druids, mages, locks, priests, paladins, hunters, shamans, so i don't see any class missing there. For example--Blackout battlegroup we have now at top in 2vs2-- 1.Lock-Shaman. 2.Rogue-Priest. 3.Druid-Paladin exct. But if you look names you will find this guys always at the top.Conclusion-YES you need skills and expirience and not only fast reaction like in fps, you need knowledge and skills, it is science not luck

---

I have to agree with this, At both the very entry levels and again at the very top levels in almost any MMO, It's more about skill than anything else since going into the fights, all things are pretty equal.

Originally posted by fivoroth

Lol w0t? It's only FPS. Go play Starcraft 2 and lets see if you can get into grandmaster league. But again I am pretty sure I will be the one laughing when you can't even get into gold league. That game is all about player skill. 

You can call it 'skill', but to me it's far more a matter of game knowledge (through experiece), and as the OP suggested,

patterned choices you make to maximize efficiency.

In the case of RTS's, success can be measured to a large degree on either figuring out, or reading about, the optimal unit balance and the quickest/most efficient means of building them.

I have absolutely no doubt I'd get crushed by the "masters" of games like Starcraft, but it has far less to do with skill (as I define the term) and far more to do with their experience with the game and how well they research the best ways to win.

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

Even in real life, intelligence makes one man no more valuable a human than the next. Although the world seems to be impressed by people who can jump higher, run faster, or solve complex math problems rapidly, those people are no more important (arguably less) than many of the "lesser" capable grunts working jobs which are requirements for what society considers "modern living" such as electricians, chinese factory workers, farmers, and plumbers.

 

Finally, I'd just like to add that even though I am a huge nerd, I still think people who "pro play" any video game are a laughing stock and a shame on the gaming scene solely because they are exploiting game mechanics and programming balance instead of providing themselves with a form of entertainment focused on having fun as opposed to competition. Although it is fun for them (the only reason I dont think ill of them or suggest NOT having said tournament) I still think it is all quite the joke.

Of course, this is also coming from the same person who thinks those who worship celebrities and make sport players their personal heroes are what I would call the "bottom of the gene pool". No offense, but LOL @ being payed millions and become worshiped for being able to run really fast or catch a ball better than other people. Although I am probably an "elitist" I think that REAL heroes deserve the credit and self-obsessed people who do nothing for society but "pro play" do more harm than good. I mean, it's not like the best teachers are payed millions of dollars and drafted to "pro teach" or anything. Right? Right? It's not like public education suffers due to low pay and atheltic scholarships often trump any form of intellectual persuit. Right? Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 So what your telling me is your worth as much to society as Einstein was?

So because people took a hobby and turned in into competition and job/career they are a laughing stock?  How do you think most sports got started?  How about CCG's like M:TG?  Maybe you've never won anything.  I think most people started in little league sports and got more competitive and wanted to win.

Maybe you don't know what a real hero is.  A real hero doesn't want the credit.  He/she did something because they wanted to, regardless of recognition.  If you think that atheletes don't do anything, I think your sorely mistaken on how many jobs are gotten because of their ability.  Do a little research into how many people are employed within a professional atheletic team before you go spouting at the mouth about things you have no clue about.  Without them a ton of money would live a city, look at Cleveland and how many businesses had to downsize when Lebron left for example. 

Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

I have to agree with this, At both the very entry levels and again at the very top levels in almost any MMO, It's more about skill than anything else since going into the fights, all things are pretty equal.

Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

I really don't see this as an "OR" statement. It's "AND" all the way.

Forgot to take your pills? :)

Anyways, as you correctly point out, you have it, people like you have successfully cryed for years until everything that would disrupt your gaming experience was removed, loosing a part of the players and making the games a joke complexity-wise in the process.

Good job!

So what do you still have a effing problem with? Still not satisfied? Not skilled enough to be able to be "top-level gamer"? Do we remove levels, gear and talents next? :)

Flame on!

:)

Today's Esports or whatever you choose to call them are yesterdays neighborhood basketball and baseball games. Today, kids sit in front of a tv on an xbor or playstation or in front of a pc and screen, and are rather sedentary, yesterday kids went out, got fresh air, played ball, hocky, war games in the woods, were really quite active.

It is what it is. IMHO player skill, Pro Play, L33tness, and all that other "hip" kid speak just implies you have sat infront of your gaming system for an awful long time.

Originally posted by Fargol

I have absolutely no doubt I'd get crushed by the "masters" of games like Starcraft, but it has far less to do with skill (as I define the term) and far more to do with their experience with the game and how well they research the best ways to win.

So by your definition, no 'skill' exists then, in any game or sport. Because, believe it or not, all the olympic winners and master musicians, are so good because of muscle memory and training.. it is no different than someone clicking a mouse, as strange as it may sound.

I find the whole topic pretty pointless really, is the OP trying to say that a maxed player with cash shop buffs pressing 1 button to kill a whole team of green noobs equally good to someone who fairly defeated his oponent in a 1 on 1 duel, using an identical char? That is the definition of 'skill'.

It's not about being elitist or any of that crap (myself I suck at PvP), it's about recognition of talent and skill in others. Is the OP basically saying that some fat guy with lots of money buying a gold medal is equally good to a hard working athlet who won one through skill? No he is not.

There is not a shadow of a doubt that memorizing spawns, perfecting your click patterns, and reflexes all count towards skill, but relying solely on +xxx items and cash shop buffs to gank noobs - is no skill at all. And it can be proven in a simple way.

I can easily get to max level, buy best gear, and kill some newbie who has no such gear/level. *Anyone can do that*. However, go win a tournament, on fair grounds, can you? If no skill is involved, how come we all don't have gold medals? That's what defines skill, it's how hard it is to achieve a goal and how good you are at getting there.

And this is why FPS/Strategy etc games are skill based, while MMO's are not (since there is no balance). Guild Wars 2 will possibly be the first skill based MMO PvP system, due to equality in gear. But that remains to be seen.

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

I always thought it was funny when people almost raged when talking about "Player Skill" 

I used to think that too.  Then I stepped back and thought that maybe those people truly aren't that skilled at anything in real life, so pressing 1, then 2, then 3 on a keyboard in a raid (while being able to concentrate on that incredible task for all of 5 minutes)  is pretty much the best they can do.  It made sense to me that they would feel pride in this "skill" they have and as humans, they would assume that nobody but a select few have that capability because we all want to feel special at something.

Sounds like someone is mad that they aren't as good as other people in games.