Originally posted by Larsa

I don't understand this whole "reward" thing anyway.

Yeah, ok ... the gameplay should be its own reward, not everything is about chasing the carrots, about racing the treadmill, finding your own fun rather than racing everyone else's harvest rates ... I don't really want to argue against that angle of seeing things even though most games out there are structured as an overt treadmill. 

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Originally posted by maplestone

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Originally posted by Larsa
I don't understand this whole "reward" thing anyway.

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Yeah, ok ... the gameplay should be its own reward, not everything is about chasing the carrots, about racing the treadmill, finding your own fun rather than racing everyone else's harvest rates ... I don't really want to argue against that angle of seeing things even though most games out there are structured as an overt treadmill. 

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That's not going to work for long term MMO gaming.

Originally posted by bishbosh

games should reward players based on 

-the descicions they make

-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat

-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships

-their ability to play the market and reap gains

pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft  or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.

"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"

why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.

im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance.  PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games. 

All games? Every game that is made? No games ever should be based on progression? All games forever should fit your criteria?

Personally, I'm glad there is a variety of games, some based on skill, some based on progression (time in game).

Most gamers like them both.

It looks like we are still living in the 90's, people stuffing games into very restrictive genres going insane when they stumble upon a game like Borderlands and cant decide if it's a RPG or FPS game... I see the genre borders blending more and more with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and such, and I damn well hope to see similar MMORPGFPS games and not just RPG or FPS based games.

And what's with the "time spent is RPG thing" arguing anyway, last I played Battlefield BC2 I got better guns and accessories depending on the time I spent in the game, sure I got them faster the better I played but it's essentially the same. Same thing in Space Marine MP. It's neccesary feature in online games where you want people to spend as much as possible time, or as long as possible on a long run. Rewarding time spent is here to stay regardless of the genre if it's an online game trying to keep players in the game by a carrot, which is very common nowadays.

Originally posted by Kuinn

It looks like we are still living in the 90's, people stuffing games into very restrictive genres going insane when they stumble upon a game like Borderlands and cant decide if it's a RPG or FPS game... I see the genre borders blending more and more with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and such, and I damn well hope to see similar MMORPGFPS games and not just RPG or FPS based games.

 

And what's with the "time spent is RPG thing" arguing anyway, last I played Battlefield BC2 I got better guns and accessories depending on the time I spent in the game, sure I got them faster the better I played but it's essentially the same. Same thing in Space Marine MP. It's neccesary feature in online games where you want people to spend as much as possible time, or as long as possible on a long run. Rewarding time spent is here to stay regardless of the genre if it's an online game trying to keep players in the game by a carrot, which is very common nowadays.

It may be a little off topic, but I just have to say...I've never been a fan of FPS', but not since Goldeneye have I been so enthralled by one quite as much as Borderlands. Awesome game that. Hope the sequel lives up to the original.

To reward time spent is to reward the people who keep subbing. 

Time spent = Money.

That's the bottom line.

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Originally posted by Kuinn
It looks like we are still living in the 90's, people stuffing games into very restrictive genres going insane when they stumble upon a game like Borderlands and cant decide if it's a RPG or FPS game... I see the genre borders blending more and more with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and such, and I damn well hope to see similar MMORPGFPS games and not just RPG or FPS based games.
 
And what's with the "time spent is RPG thing" arguing anyway, last I played Battlefield BC2 I got better guns and accessories depending on the time I spent in the game, sure I got them faster the better I played but it's essentially the same. Same thing in Space Marine MP. It's neccesary feature in online games where you want people to spend as much as possible time, or as long as possible on a long run. Rewarding time spent is here to stay regardless of the genre if it's an online game trying to keep players in the game by a carrot, which is very common nowadays.

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I think your comment about the carrot is at the heart of this thread.
There are current sentiments floating around that you don't need the carrot. Or that the carrot is the fun of the game itself.

It's easy to apply that to a finite game. One with a start and a finish like a SPRPG, But I am struggling with that concept and how it applies to the long term MMORPG.

Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

 

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Originally posted by Kuinn
It looks like we are still living in the 90's, people stuffing games into very restrictive genres going insane when they stumble upon a game like Borderlands and cant decide if it's a RPG or FPS game... I see the genre borders blending more and more with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and such, and I damn well hope to see similar MMORPGFPS games and not just RPG or FPS based games.
 
And what's with the "time spent is RPG thing" arguing anyway, last I played Battlefield BC2 I got better guns and accessories depending on the time I spent in the game, sure I got them faster the better I played but it's essentially the same. Same thing in Space Marine MP. It's neccesary feature in online games where you want people to spend as much as possible time, or as long as possible on a long run. Rewarding time spent is here to stay regardless of the genre if it's an online game trying to keep players in the game by a carrot, which is very common nowadays.

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I think your comment about the carrot is at the heart of this thread.
There are current sentiments floating around that you don't need the carrot. Or that the carrot is the fun of the game itself.

It's easy to apply that to a finite game. One with a start and a finish like a SPRPG, But I am struggling with that concept and how it applies to the long term MMORPG.

So much this.

Even srpgs have carrots anyways. Its just not a grind because the whole game only lasts 20-100 hours.

The old equation use to be time + risk = reward.  They dropped the risk from the equation and boredom ensued.

In EQ, you lost exp points for dying, you had to retrieve your corpse or lose your stuff etc.  It took some amount of skill to get to the level cap and stay there.  Perhaps not a lot, but more than just playing 24 hours a day beating your head against a wall until you "achieved" max level. 

It also took social skill, most classes were incapable of soloing their way to max level in a reasonable time frame, so they had to have the social skills to work with others in order to progress. 

Even crafting had some level of risk involved in old school MMOs, you risked losing the ingredient during a failed attempt, sometimes losing thousands of gold in the process.

Yeah, combat may be rather skillless for the most part, though games like FFXI in the days before WoW, required lots of teamwork in combat in order to progress at a reasonable pace (another layer of social skill), but that doesn't mean MMOs were without skill requirements, at least before the Wowified themepark invasion.  It was just a different type of skill requirement, more social and perseverance oriented and less twitch/strategy.   Combat was only a part of the game, not 90% of it.

When things were reduced to time = reward is when MMORPGs became boring IMO.  Everyone could do everything, no one had to depend on anyone else, and you were 100% guaranteed to reach max level just for showing up and playing.  Even a social reject can reach the level cap at the same pace as everyone else.

This is all my opinion of course, but I'm an ex MMORPG gamer and I don't think I'll ever go back for the reasons I listed above.  The genre has moved away from virtual worlds that feel realistic and alive to game worlds that feel void of even a vestige of soul, muchless life and any developer that even attempts to make anything else is instantly shot down in the market place or lacks the investment support to fully flesh out their game. 

Originally posted by Sephastus

Originally posted by wrekognize

So if I have a membership to a gym, I should automatically grow muscles?

If you spend more time than me DOING muscle building exercizes, yes! If you just go in and sit there looking at the ladies, then, no. Wrong muscle being exercized there buddy :-P

You get out of game & life what you put into it.

Correct. It is effort applied and lessons learned that generate the rewards, not time.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Ceridith

Don't play RPGs then?

RPGs are about character progression, and gear/levels happens to be part of that. If you want to play a game where success is based mainly around skill, I suggest picking up an FPS or RTS game.

Exactamundo... It's attitudes like the OP's that really boggle my mind, what he wants is another genre, not to say there can't be MMO games like this, but they're not going to be MMORPG's.

Well, they are making one just for the OP, GW2 in fact, and it really isn't a proper MMORPG since its focuses so hard on removing character progression from the game and leveling the playing field.

Should be right up his alley.

There is a lot of misinformation and speculation about just how exactly GW2's progression system will work.

I think He's referring to the level cap philosophy GW2 is using, no upward progression all horizontal. Not to mention things like instant 80, gear etc.. in PVP.

I stand by my statement, with the exception to the instant level cap PvP chars.

Then please correct him about it rather than just making a general statement.  Everything I have read about GW2 indicates that they want a horizontal progression rather than vertical progression which is what he was saying.  If that is incorrect, I would like to know how it is incorrect as it may change some of my thoughts on the game.

Originally posted by bishbosh

item decay (stops time based rewards, the more you play -- the more your items decay, you have to play good to get stronger, not simply play)

player owned cities where u can set taxes, rent shop space

cities are special eg some cities might have a forge that gives 5% bonus fire damage on all crafts etc

no fixed classes

non targetting combat

meaninful crafting with crafting skill trees

pvp/pve zones (pvp zones have better rewards but greater risk)

fast levelling and then you focus on horizontal progression and teamwork based objectives like castle sieges/ relic capture

large concurrent server population

 

You are confusing me, you speak out againts time based gameplay, yet you propose features which are the BACKBONE of time based mmos, time to get mats for crafting, time to get money to pay rent for housing, time to get resources to counter item decay...

It seems to me that you are just unhappy that rift or wow follow the same old paradigm, easy to play hard to master, nowadays ofcourse, too easy to play too hard to master, especially in pvp, with every expansion new mechanics are introduced, i dont know about current wow, but at the time i played you needed 3 hotbars @ howmanywerethere? 10 skills hotkeyed.

Soo.... welcome in the club, it was stated a long time ago that wow gameplay was like someone would doscontinue the grades B, D, E and F at school, taking away any incentive to try to be better to anyone who is not a egghead (hardcore raider, arena junkie), if you can get a C for free, why bother? :)

Flame on!

:)

MMOs players seek a very different experience to people who play RTS, FPS, sports etc. MMO players don't want competitive PvP they want character progression and they want to have large scale fights even though these turn into nothing more than zergfests.

I would love if WoW allowed people to have access to all gear in their arenas. Arenas in WoW have the potential to be very competitive especially 5v5 but they are so unbalanced because of gear. GW2 is trying to put everybody on an equal terms eliminating the problems GW1 had. So that will reward skill not time spent. Winning will be down to the gear and skills choices you make and your skill.

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by bishbosh

games should reward players based on 

-the descicions they make

-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat

-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships

-their ability to play the market and reap gains

pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft  or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.

I agree with you as long as your game ends every hour or so and you must start completely over just like the games in your example.  You must also only ever play on the same playing field and use regulation hardware that is the same as everyone else (ie: no super gaming computers, no special gaming peripherals, same sized monitors).  Everyone must play with the same bandwidth and latency.

You have fun with that one.  I'll stick to progression based RPGs as my MMO and single player game hobby because that's what interests me.  When I want to play sports I go play real sports not "e-sport" video games.

edit: spelling -- it's my foe.

pushing mmorpgs away from time based rewards to skill based rewards is extemely feasible (i think gw2 is gonna have a shot at this, maybe TERA as well). mmorpgs will never be as skill based as esport type games but that doesnt mean they have to be all about who is a better basement dweller.

i think you are exaggerated the requirements for skill based gamplay and the fact is simply that you prefer time based rewards. that is great, there are plenty of game out their for your to play and enjoy but i dont think a mmorpg that focusses more on player skill rather than time will have to "end every hour or so....."

I hear people referring to "skill" based games all the time, but I am not sure what you mean by this.  I often see it connected to "twitch" based combat, but I don't see how this is more skillfull than what I consider "thought" based combat.  Every game requires skill.  So, I've never understood the argument for "skill" based anything, since it is all skill based.

Originally posted by bishbosh

games should reward players based on 

-the descicions they make

-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat

-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships

-their ability to play the market and reap gains

pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft  or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.

"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"

why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.

im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance.  PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games. 

So should someone that works 16 hours a day and someone that works 16 hours a week be rewarded equally as well? How about rewarding someone for spending money in the cash shop, is that what you'd lilke to see?

It's not because the "no-lifers" are rewarded more in game that they're better than you in PvP. In most games they'd have vastly superior gear and would own you in a way not even somewhat funny. GW2 should be the closest thing to a level playing field as far as MMO's go since gear at cap is supposed to be somewhat equivalent no matter how you get it.

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

So should someone that works 16 hours a day and someone that works 16 hours a week be rewarded equally as well? How about rewarding someone for spending money in the cash shop, is that what you'd lilke to see?

Few points to make about this comment.

A) It's a beautiful irony that you compared MMO time spent to hourly work. That's exactly what the genre is turning into, and what I hope it moves away from.

B) I think everyone agrees people should be rewarded for effort to some degree, but those who are arguing against time based progression (that is, effort based progression) are really saying that many games require an unreasonable amount of time to become top tier, and that there is no other path to take. In some games, those who want challenging gameplay are also not allowed to participate in it until they have spent maybe 200-500 hours "paying their dues."

C) Many people who are pro cash shops do not want to be rewarded directly for spending money. They are looking for a means to reduce the unreasonable time requirements mmos currently have.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

So should someone that works 16 hours a day and someone that works 16 hours a week be rewarded equally as well? How about rewarding someone for spending money in the cash shop, is that what you'd lilke to see?

Few points to make about this comment.

A) It's a beautiful irony that you compared MMO time spent to hourly work. That's exactly what the genre is turning into, and what I hope it moves away from.

B) I think everyone agrees people should be rewarded for effort to some degree, but those who are arguing against time based progression (that is, effort based progression) are really saying that many games require an unreasonable amount of time to become top tier, and that there is no other path to take. In some games, those who want challenging gameplay are also not allowed to participate in it until they have spent maybe 200-500 hours "paying their dues."

C) Many people who are pro cash shops do not want to be rewarded directly for spending money. They are looking for a means to reduce the unreasonable time requirements mmos currently have.

I agree with Sythion. MMOs have turned into (or maybe they always were this way?) games which can pass as a second job. You spend an awful lot of time being bored doing some repetitive task (grind) in order to get to the fun stuff. I find MMOs unreasonable in terms of the time requirements they have. They are not games which you can play for say 5-6 hours a week because you will get no where and they are not really fun. 

That's why I stopped playing MMOs a long time ago and I don't intend on playing an MMO again unless the ridiculously boring time sinks are removed. MMOs are boring but people just play them because of things like progression, "social interaction" etc. But at the end of the day MMOs are rarely fun.

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

So should someone that works 16 hours a day and someone that works 16 hours a week be rewarded equally as well? How about rewarding someone for spending money in the cash shop, is that what you'd lilke to see?

Few points to make about this comment.

A) It's a beautiful irony that you compared MMO time spent to hourly work. That's exactly what the genre is turning into, and what I hope it moves away from.

B) I think everyone agrees people should be rewarded for effort to some degree, but those who are arguing against time based progression (that is, effort based progression) are really saying that many games require an unreasonable amount of time to become top tier, and that there is no other path to take. In some games, those who want challenging gameplay are also not allowed to participate in it until they have spent maybe 200-500 hours "paying their dues."

C) Many people who are pro cash shops do not want to be rewarded directly for spending money. They are looking for a means to reduce the unreasonable time requirements mmos currently have.

I agree with Sythion. MMOs have turned into (or maybe they always were this way?) games which can pass as a second job. You spend an awful lot of time being bored doing some repetitive task (grind) in order to get to the fun stuff. I find MMOs unreasonable in terms of the time requirements they have. They are not games which you can play for say 5-6 hours a week because you will get no where and they are not really fun. 

That's why I stopped playing MMOs a long time ago and I don't intend on playing an MMO again unless the ridiculously boring time sinks are removed. MMOs are boring but people just play them because of things like progression, "social interaction" etc. But at the end of the day MMOs are rarely fun.

 You have over a thousand posts on a website dedicated to Mmorpg's, and you are just now figuring out that they are ALL time sinks?

I do not understand this ....

Originally posted by Redemp

 You have over a thousand posts on a website dedicated to Mmorpg's, and you are just now figuring out that they are ALL time sinks?

I do not understand this ....

Still, they should reward you for accomplishing stuff, not just being around.

There is far too much kindergarden mentality over MMOs where everybody gets a price no matter how bad they played.

Some time sinks are needed if you want players to stay around for years but there is such thing as going too far, like daily quests and similar crap.

Originally posted by Ganathar

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by maplestone

Would I be correct in summarizing this thread as:  "I like to play in style X.  Style X should get the most rewards!"

correct! this is the essence of debate/discussion -- taking into consideration that i made arguments backing up my views (something you forgot to mention) 

feel free to state your viewpoint (rather than pointing out the obvious)

I come from a world where if I argue that world should work a certain way, it's because it provides the greatest good to the most people, not because it benefits me personally.  In a discussion where everyone is being selfish, it's hard to feel motivated to offer help.

What most MMOs are selling is the illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power (give or take some setbacks along the way).  It is hard to design one set of ostacles that keeps all players inside a narrow range between challenge and frustration.  So it is inevitable that the broader the audience, the more the game drifts towards making all actions rewarding in some way. 

If you want a game/minigame tailored to your ideal risk-reward ratio, then simply ask for it.  Be honest about it, don't invent excuses that try to paint your position as somehow morally superior or reasons why everyone else who has a different ideal is wrong.  Accept that until the gameplay stats prove you really are the majority, consider yourself a niche player and just ask for a niche where you feel motivated, not for the whole game be redesigned around you.

come on m8 ur talking shit, all you care about is yourself and maybe your closest family and friends.

i never painted myself as morally superior. this is just game preference it has nothing to do with morals rofl. all i said was the skill based rewards are better than time based rewards.  wouldnt you rather be rewarded for your intelligence/skill rather than how many days you can take off work? alot of people seem to agree that grinding is not fun but they do it for rewards. i cant get my head around this , it just seems ridiculous to me. i play video games for fun and if im not having fun i simply do something else no matter how shiny the nest shiny is.

there cant be any gameplay stats that prove that skill based rewards are popular because no mmorpg has tried it yet. there are plenty of non-mmorpg games that reward players based on skill and they have more users than WOW eg. league of legends. how can you dismiss an idea if it hasnt even been tested?

you say league of legends reward people base on skill, what do they reward people in that game?

LoL is not totally skill based, there are levels for progression. These levels give you summoner points, glyph slots, new summoner abilities and access to better tier glyphs. A player that has played more WILL have an advantage.

yeh there is levels/runes but it doesnt take long to unlock enough to play a couple of champs. from then on in its horizontal progression. you are only paired against people of the same level as you anyway so its not big deal.

im not saying there should be NO time based rewards but MMORPGs should try and remove focus from them. LoL seemed like a good example. I could have pointed out DoTA which has 7-11 milllion unique downloads of the latest map, probably heaps more actual players and this game has no time based rewards whatsoever and you are saying there is no market for skill based rewards? the most popular games have skill based rewards, these players wouldnt touch mmorpgs because its really gay when you dont stand a chance because you havent undergone the tedious grind to get the latest raid/pvp gear.