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Originally posted by Comaf

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Originally posted by PukeBucket
 

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Originally posted by bloodbone
 
 
So I will preface this by saying I intend to buy GW2 and enjoy it as an E-sport type game. 
There seems to be a lot of people with the impression this game is actually a MMORPG.  Now this may simply be a distinction in how people classify things or maybe I have missed certain details about this game.
My understanding: (tell me if im wrong)
[*]
The only progression in this game is leveling 1-80 period.  Dungeons etc. will offer no further advancement (outside of cosmetic);
[*]
Once you reach max level there is NOT a persistent world that players can affect in any meaningful way; (e.g. guild towns, conquering cities etc.,)

The large scale PvP battles will NOT happen in the open world but an instance that resets every few weeks.
 
So if I’m correct in my estimation the only value in leveling is to get to the end so you can play the large scale PvP (E-sport).  General PvP will allow you to ceate a level 80 immediately.
 
Based on all of the above:
 
Leveling in this game should not be mandatory – just like playing the PvE game is not mandatory in StarCraft. 
In fact they should just remove levels all together in my estimation as it would be less confusing to those players expecting a full-fledged MMO.
 
 
 

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Fishing troll has good bait.

That said GW2 is a MMO.
Esport can't be programmed. It has to happen.
Is a baseball diamond a sport? No, it's a field.

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 It sucks to see a well laid out, well thought argument as to (in this case) why GW2 is not an mmoRPG, and then to see a vague very small response.  Though, I wish the political arena performed like this because then I would know to always vote for the person that was obviously the more intelligent.
 
Now, before you get upset, I'm not saying you are not intelligent.  But please, for the sake of a debate that clarifies things for folks who really don't know what an mmorpg is because they are too young to have played EQ, DAoC, AC, and Ultima, place your reasons as to why GW2 is more than what it appears to be.  I know you can do this because you would never have gotten your degree otherwise :)

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It's not well laid out. It's one person's skewed view.
The game is a MMORPG. Because one, it's massive. Two, it's multiplayer. Three, you play it online. Four, you're offered a role. Five, you play that role. Six, it's a game.

Esport isn't a genre of game. It can happen with any game that happens to be produced electronically.

So this argument is troll spew.

Originally posted by Comaf

Originally posted by PukeBucket

 

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Originally posted by bloodbone
 

 

So I will preface this by saying I intend to buy GW2 and enjoy it as an E-sport type game. 

There seems to be a lot of people with the impression this game is actually a MMORPG.  Now this may simply be a distinction in how people classify things or maybe I have missed certain details about this game.

My understanding: (tell me if im wrong)

[*]
The only progression in this game is leveling 1-80 period.  Dungeons etc. will offer no further advancement (outside of cosmetic);
[*]
Once you reach max level there is NOT a persistent world that players can affect in any meaningful way; (e.g. guild towns, conquering cities etc.,)

The large scale PvP battles will NOT happen in the open world but an instance that resets every few weeks.

 

So if I’m correct in my estimation the only value in leveling is to get to the end so you can play the large scale PvP (E-sport).  General PvP will allow you to ceate a level 80 immediately.

 

Based on all of the above:

 

Leveling in this game should not be mandatory – just like playing the PvE game is not mandatory in StarCraft. 

In fact they should just remove levels all together in my estimation as it would be less confusing to those players expecting a full-fledged MMO.
 
 
 

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Fishing troll has good bait.

That said GW2 is a MMO.
Esport can't be programmed. It has to happen.
Is a baseball diamond a sport? No, it's a field.

 It sucks to see a well laid out, well thought argument as to (in this case) why GW2 is not an mmoRPG, and then to see a vague very small response.  Though, I wish the political arena performed like this because then I would know to always vote for the person that was obviously the more intelligent.

 

Now, before you get upset, I'm not saying you are not intelligent.  But please, for the sake of a debate that clarifies things for folks who really don't know what an mmorpg is because they are too young to have played EQ, DAoC, AC, and Ultima, place your reasons as to why GW2 is more than what it appears to be.  I know you can do this because you would never have gotten your degree otherwise :)

Why is DAoC an MMORPG? i'm 19 and i've played it since 2005, i also consider GW2 to be an RPG, with variable things that make it a live world, like in DAoC open PvP, GW2 is instanced, Like DAoC, the PvE is seperate completely from any type of PvP, (exception of PvP server), unlike DAoC GW2 is trying to bring random people together in PvE. Only main thing i see different in DAoC as to GW2 with endgame is DAoC gave more incentive to PvP because of Realm Ranks, so other than that, there isn't a huge difference. and the fact that GW2 resets PvP every couple weeks, but in DAoC relics swapped hands weekly, if not 5-6 times on a weekend, and there are "orbs of power" in GW2. DAoC and GW2 with levleing are so similar, once you hit endgame what else is there other than PvP, or go get Draco ML10 temp, then go PvP.

Originally posted by Comaf

 It sucks to see a well laid out, well thought argument as to (in this case) why GW2 is not an mmoRPG, and then to see a vague very small response.  Though, I wish the political arena performed like this because then I would know to always vote for the person that was obviously the more intelligent.

 

Now, before you get upset, I'm not saying you are not intelligent.  But please, for the sake of a debate that clarifies things for folks who really don't know what an mmorpg is because they are too young to have played EQ, DAoC, AC, and Ultima, place your reasons as to why GW2 is more than what it appears to be.  I know you can do this because you would never have gotten your degree otherwise :)

Calling the OP's post a 'well laid out, well thought argument' is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Not only are most of his points half-truths at best, when taking it literally; If you look at the post as a whole his point seems to basically be implying that 'because this game isn't a sandbox, it's not an MMO'. By that definition, nearly NONE of the games on this website can be considered MMOs. Still think this is an intelligent discussion?

Furthermore, you are supporting the sandbox minded argument partially with themepark examples. Most of the things he's implying make an MMO are not present in EQ, or DAoC.

Originally posted by bloodbone

 

So I will preface this by saying I intend to buy GW2 and enjoy it as an E-sport type game. 

There seems to be a lot of people with the impression this game is actually a MMORPG.  Now this may simply be a distinction in how people classify things or maybe I have missed certain details about this game.

My understanding: (tell me if im wrong)

1. The only progression in this game is leveling 1-80 period.  Dungeons etc. will offer no further advancement (outside of cosmetic);
2. Once you reach max level there is NOT a persistent world that players can affect in any meaningful way; (e.g. guild towns, conquering cities etc.,)
3. The large scale PvP battles will NOT happen in the open world but an instance that resets every few weeks.

So if I’m correct in my estimation the only value in leveling is to get to the end so you can play the large scale PvP (E-sport).  General PvP will allow you to ceate a level 80 immediately.

 

Based on all of the above:

 

Leveling in this game should not be mandatory – just like playing the PvE game is not mandatory in StarCraft. 

In fact they should just remove levels all together in my estimation as it would be less confusing to those players expecting a full-fledged MMO.

 

 

1. Progression doesn't stop the second you hit 80. It will take a bit of additional effort to accumulate max stat level 80 gear. It isn't handed to you, but you won't have to spend months getting it either. There are still skill points to earn, which unlock your healing/utility/elite skills. You earn skill points by leveling, but the majority are earned via a variety of skill point challenges in the world. There are also achievments to earn, some of which may provide benefits to your characters. In the Reddit on WvW, the participating dev also let slip that there will be trait point tomes in game, which will allow you to increase the number of trait points you have to spend on your trait builds by up to 20 pts. (No details on how you may earn these tomes was given).
    So, there is post level cap progression, but no endless level cap gear grind. The goal post won't keep moving, once you get your max stat gear, that's the end of the stat based gear progression.
2. There is a persistent world. It's not a full sandbox, but player actions mean a lot more in this persistent world than in most MMORPGs.
3. World vs. World is seperate from Competative PVP. CPVP is the esport, seperate from the PVE world entirely. World vs. World vs. World utilizes your PVE character, with their own gear and skills, but effective level for everyone is raised to level 80. The 4 Massive zones that make up the WvW play space contain not only PvP objectives, but PvE and Dynamic Event content. It will provide some of the flavore of Open World PvP, while being segregated from the main PvE world. Yes, each War only lasts two weeks, before the bond between the three warring worlds break and a new match up is selected, but you earn bonuses for your world based on your level of success in WvW, so the effects on the entire PvE world persist beyond the WvW environment.

I'm surprised that so many people think Guild Wars 2 is *that* different from previous mmorpgs. Those that do are in for a disappointment .

I'm not saying that its a WOW clone or anything. Guild Wars 2 is an evolutionary mmorpg with elements of the first Guild Wars and elements of other more traditional mmorpgs like WoW, WAR/Daoc, etc. If you watch the hours upon hours of gameplay videos I'm not sure how you can think its anything else. Personally I think I'm going to love Guild Wars 2. For me its a great combination of the best elements from several different mmorpgs.

Game is months from release and allredy pvp and endgame gear grind group raid complainers are whining.

This game might be good.

Originally posted by bloodbone

Originally posted by bloodbone

Originally posted by stragen001

*hands bloodbone his flame retardant pants*

Omg Lmaso...

Ok so despite having different views no one seems to say any of my three points are wrong or mis-informed.  My conclusions based on my three points may seem dramatic but if your leveling for the sake of leveling just make it all about story and consider it another "side game".

People shouldnt be forced to go through the process of leveling... as lets face it........ when you hit 80 you are for all intense and purposes done............ with all but e-sport activites. 

 

 

 

Also I havent made up my mind and If Im wrong on my three points please tell me so.

You are wrong on your three points.

Of course it's an MMO.  It's just a PVP centric MMO without character advancement at max level.  Without an extended trial I can't really determine if it would be worth my time and money as a non PVPer.

Originally posted by bloodbone

 

So I will preface this by saying I intend to buy GW2 and enjoy it as an E-sport type game. 

There seems to be a lot of people with the impression this game is actually a MMORPG.  Now this may simply be a distinction in how people classify things or maybe I have missed certain details about this game.

My understanding: (tell me if im wrong)

1. The only progression in this game is leveling 1-80 period.  Dungeons etc. will offer no further advancement (outside of cosmetic);
2. Once you reach max level there is NOT a persistent world that players can affect in any meaningful way; (e.g. guild towns, conquering cities etc.,)
3. The large scale PvP battles will NOT happen in the open world but an instance that resets every few weeks.

So if I’m correct in my estimation the only value in leveling is to get to the end so you can play the large scale PvP (E-sport).  General PvP will allow you to ceate a level 80 immediately.

 

Based on all of the above:

 

Leveling in this game should not be mandatory – just like playing the PvE game is not mandatory in StarCraft. 

In fact they should just remove levels all together in my estimation as it would be less confusing to those players expecting a full-fledged MMO.

 

 

1. That is NOT the only progression in the game. It's the only vertical progression, but many would consider there to be plenty other forms of legitimate progression possible in games. Example: Achievements. Prestige progression > power progression in my opinion.

2. Once you reach max level, no, there's few sandbox features. Because there's few sandbox features in the entire game. Because it's NOT A SANDBOX. That said, it's in no way a typical themepark. Guild Wars 2 has a lot of dynamic and varied events in the open world that players will, by no means, have completed all of them in their first playthrough to 80. So it's good that the world doesn't become trivial for max level characters who can then go and experience that content where it's still fun due to level scaling.

3. WvWvW is not an instance. When you misrepresent something with a label like that, you confuse people.

Also, WvWvW is not the e-sport game type. It's a massive, epic,  PERSISTENT battle across three servers for two weeks with an enormous player cap, which is inherently unbalanced. What you later labeled "general PvP" where your character becomes 80 immediately upon entering with all unlocks available is the intended e-sport.

The only thing I agree with is that levels aren't necessarily important in Guild Wars 2. However, it's nice for many that they're there because they still serve the purpose of players gauging how far they've actually progressed in the game, regardless of if true vertical progression doesn't actually exist. They could very well take out levels with a few adjustments, but I have no problems with them being there since the system seems to have been designed with it nicely.

Your post comes off as trolling when you appear to ask a question, then answer your own title in the OP with something that will garner hostile reactions, no matter what kind of "I'm buying the game too" disclaimer you try to stick in.

Originally posted by bloodbone

 

So I will preface this by saying I intend to buy GW2 and enjoy it as an E-sport type game. 

There seems to be a lot of people with the impression this game is actually a MMORPG.  Now this may simply be a distinction in how people classify things or maybe I have missed certain details about this game.

My understanding: (tell me if im wrong)

1. The only progression in this game is leveling 1-80 period.  Dungeons etc. will offer no further advancement (outside of cosmetic);
2. Once you reach max level there is NOT a persistent world that players can affect in any meaningful way; (e.g. guild towns, conquering cities etc.,)
3. The large scale PvP battles will NOT happen in the open world but an instance that resets every few weeks.

So if I’m correct in my estimation the only value in leveling is to get to the end so you can play the large scale PvP (E-sport).  General PvP will allow you to ceate a level 80 immediately.

 

Based on all of the above:

 

Leveling in this game should not be mandatory – just like playing the PvE game is not mandatory in StarCraft. 

In fact they should just remove levels all together in my estimation as it would be less confusing to those players expecting a full-fledged MMO.

 

 

1. Wrong. Once your at 80 and fully unlocked, you advance in your skills instead of stats.

2. Wrong. The persistent world remains. You can travel anywhere in the persistent world and still make a difference with the dynamic event system. In addition, there's the persistent WvW zones where you can definitely make a difference as well.

3. Wrong. See above. (Technicality) WvW is a set of four persistent zones. The battles reset every two weeks as you're matched up against two new servers.

So you're dead wrong in your estimation that the only value in level is to get to large scale PvP. For example, there are level 80 dungeons and zones that you'll just be getting in to at that point. The entirety of Orr begins at 80.

The rest is silly.

E-Sport? I don't think so. They need to be more PvP focused only. This won't be LoL or the like, just too much other stuff.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Of course it's an MMO.  It's just a PVP centric MMO without character advancement at max level.  Without an extended trial I can't really determine if it would be worth my time and money as a non PVPer.

Guild wars 2 is not a PvP centric game. Its a game designed for ppl that hate what MMORPGs have become...a pointless gear trendmil. The MMO market is already flooded with games that have all the things you seem to value like gear trendmil and raids. 

Basically, most of the design decisions around guild wars 2 designed to minimize wasting the players time for no rreal reason other than to pad content. So while it might seem like a PvP centric game due to this mentality, but in truth its just a game that accepts you have a life and you probably don't want to spend it repeating something you hate just for gear.

Anyways, guild wars 2 isn't going to appeal to everybody. Especially those that cannot separete the gear grind from having real fun or doing something because is fun, not for the extra +1 stat.

Originally posted by bloodbone

Ok so despite having different views no one seems to say any of my three points are wrong or mis-informed.  My conclusions based on my three points may seem dramatic but if your leveling for the sake of leveling just make it all about story and consider it another "side game".

 

There is PVE, World vs World and Competetive PVP.

For PVE, you have to level and aquire gear an skillpoints.

For WvW, you get boosted to level 80, but you still have to rely on your gear and skillpoints.

For competetive PVP, you get boosted to level 80, get all skills and get a standard set of gear that can't be changed.

In PVE, there are dynamic events, which can have persistent outcomes. For example, if you manage to drive back the centaurs in the human starter area, the human build new outposts and settlements with new merchants. But the centaurs keep attacking and you have to defend their attacks or they will burn down the settlements again.

WvW is a persistent enviroment for 2 weeks, where 3 servers battle over the Mists to gain WvW points. There is no population balance except if the number of players would crash the server. Everyone is on the same battlefield, there are no instances. After the 2 weeks, the servers are rematched according to their points and the current state has to be reset, because the ownership of the keeps are most likely not compatible in the new matchup.

Competetive PVP takes place in small instanced arenas (around 5v5), where the team numbers are balanced. There is no persistance whatsoever. This is what ArenaNet aims to be an e-sport.

Gear progression: As I understand, there is no gear progression in stat numbers, but in stat balance. So maybe you get a complete level 80 set with your story quests, but these have balanced stats: +10str, +10dex, +10int, +10con (I don't know what stats there actually are). But in dungeons, you can get gear with a different distribution (like +15str, +5dex, +5int, +15con), and the harder the dungeon, the wider the distribution, with the ultimate being +40str, +0rest.

It's an MMO with E-sport elements.  Duh.

This is and should be labeled MMODisney. Sorry fans,  I'm one of you but the more I learn about the game the more it just feels like a big playground. There is not one thing wrong with that, but I actually believed this was the next Hard Core MMORPG. I was wrong. :(

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Heh, that captured my reaction perfectly.

Originally posted by bazak

Originally posted by bloodbone

Originally posted by stragen001

*hands bloodbone his flame retardant pants*

Omg Lmaso...

Ok so despite having different views no one seems to say any of my three points are wrong or mis-informed.  My conclusions based on my three points may seem dramatic but if your leveling for the sake of leveling just make it all about story and consider it another "side game".

People shouldnt be forced to go through the process of leveling... as lets face it........ when you hit 80 you are for all intense and purposes done............ with all but e-sport activites. 

 

 

 

not really, like i said W v W is not really an E-sport and the part of the game that is supposed to be fun has nothing to do with levels, they probably would have had no levels if they could have gotten away with it (some people need levels to feel a sense of achievment instead of just enjoying the content).

 

the DE's are the main thing selling this game and they look like they will make the world feel alive (probably distract people from the dungeon they were gonna do too lol) from all appearances they are making this a game for you to enjoy the content and immerse yourself in a world that feels like its alive (and the W v W and structured *E-sport* pvp). im gonna enjoy all of it (not the structured pvp so much prolly tho)

 

EDIT: of course if the type of PVE game this game seems to be doesnt interest you or seem like it will hold your interest like it will be then of course (at the very least for you) it will be a E-sport game

im sorta curious why you ignored this. i mean bloodbone if you dont say anything to what ive said your just lending more credence to the posts about you being a troll (ones that atm i am very inclined to believe). a reply would be nice....

Originally posted by aesperus

Quote train time?

I got a question......

What do you think an MMORPG is? Can't GW2 be both E-sport and MMORPG?  RPG does not mean progression in power, it means role-playing. 

I swear people don't know what  the basic needs a game must have to be an MMORPG. I will tell you IMO.

An MMORPG must have:

An Online Persistent World with people seamlessly in it.

A storyline

A sense of immersion (something that makes you feel like you are roleplaying).

Anyone who thinks they need raiding as a requisite in an MMO is very moronic because raiding wasn't really introduced until mid life in MMOs.

Guild Wars 2 is a fully featured MMORPG that also happens to contain an e-Sport like PvP element as one part of the game's overall PvP offerings.

There is honestly no other right answer.

It's so funny.. people ask for something that is not WoW and then when they get something that is not WoW... they QQ and tell us they want their gear grinds back.

So... do you REALLY want something that is not WoW or??