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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Can we just be honest with ourselves and others about paying for advantages?

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212 posts found
  Terrorizor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/12
Posts: 337

3/29/12 11:30:31 PM#61
Originally posted by Badgered86

 

You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!

Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post. In order to do so I'd like to define what I consider to be a paid-for in-game advantage. This is what we shall use as the definition of synonyms for "pay to win", "pay to cheat", "pay for power", "pay for advantages", and any similar labels in this thread.

Advantage (n.) (cash shops)

Paying real-life money for an item or benefit that:

  1. Grants access to other items or other benefits that are commonly seen in the game but are not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (Imagine if a Zod rune were a key, and said rune was the only manner of opening commonly dropped chests, but Zod runes were purchaseable from a hypothetical Diablo II store.)
  2. Modifies the standard game rules (experience gain, resource gain, movement speed, combat modifiers, etc.) and is either exclusive to the cash shop or not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (IP Boosts in League of Legends, Skill Unlock Packs in Guild Wars 1. Not the skills themselves, but the packs.)
  3. Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a statistical edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that provides a larger statistical bonus than items normally found in the game. The amount of statistical edge is irrelevant.)
  4. Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a probability edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that loads the dice of the RNG in your favor. The amount of the probability edge is irrelevant.)

I feel this is a fair definition of an advantage as it relates to games with cash shops. The intent is to identify any cash shop item that gives you a perk (even if it is a tiny one) over people who don't buy that item from the cash shop, however short-lived the effects may be.

That said, are you comfortable with items such as these being sold in MMORPGs with cash shops regardless of the game's subscription model? If yes, why? If not, why not? I appreciate your time and cooperation with this excercise.  Thanks for reading!

I can't answer that question because it covers areas that I am both comfortable with and uncomfortable with.  You may feel that creating a bias to particular aspects of a revenue model is acceptable but I think it's just ignorant and self serving.  I'm quite certain that you have already formed your bias as your perception allows for no tolerance. So I ask, why are you bothering to create this thread at all. Are you hoping to recruit opinions that follow your left or right wing ideas, or do you simply not feel that there can be a balance acheived and think that any middleground is simply ludicrous?

  User Deleted
3/29/12 11:30:59 PM#62

without RMT, if you have an advantage it's because you played more, not because you paid more.

Making an advantage is not the same as buying one.

  gainesvilleg

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/11
Posts: 1087

3/29/12 11:33:44 PM#63
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.


 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

but everyone is paying the same amount. you could argue then, they should be paying for the same time. to counter any advantages. they're all controllable by the developer. if you want uber balance, it can be enforced. it's just not fun.

time in most mmos is a significant advantage. more so than anything else. with more time, a player can amass more gold, more gear, and a greater tactical advantage over everyone else. especially in pvp. you see this in wow, especially at the beginning of each season, where you may occaisionally face a team of top-geared players who've just spent a horrifying number of hours grinding out an advantage over other players.

surely, if you were searching for something to give you more balance as you seem to be calling for, you could also point out the opposite extreme of a cash shop is similarly unbalanced to players who pay exactly the same amount. and, given they pay exactly the same amount per month, you WOULD expect a more balanced play experience. it is strange, though, that cash shops can often (not always) provide a more balanced play experience for everyone than the sub mode, don't you think?

I think this "but what about people who have more time" argument is just counter to human notions of what constitutes fair.  This is pure opinion I admit, but I think people with more time and who work harder have earned an advantage.  I look at this way:

These two things should be rewarded in-game:

  • Skill
  • Hard work

And this thing should NOT be rewarded in-game:

  • Paying extra money you earned out of game

I think this is just human nature for many.  Sure, the guy who is smarter or more skilled than you has an advantage, but we don't really begrudge him that.  We aspire to be that way.  Similarly, the guy who gets up early and works late has a work ethic that is admirable.  But those who use hacks, or glitches, or bribery, or funnel money from daddy we don't respect.  They didn't earn anything that they achieved

This basic human notion is I think at the core of why many despise a cash shop.  Sure, there are people smarter than you or who can spend more time playing, but that is the essence of what makes them better.  A cash shop spoils the ethics.

 

GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements

  User Deleted
3/29/12 11:34:03 PM#64
Originally posted by Badgered86
Originally posted by asianbboy101
Originally posted by headen

 


Originally posted by waynejr2


Originally posted by Badgered86
 
You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!
Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post. In order to do so I'd like to define what I consider to be a paid-for in-game advantage. This is what we shall use as the definition of synonyms for "pay to win", "pay to cheat", "pay for power", "pay for advantages", and any similar labels in this thread.
Advantage (n.) (cash shops)
Paying real-life money for an item or benefit that:

[*]
Grants access to other items or other benefits that are commonly seen in the game but are not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (Imagine if a Zod rune were a key, and said rune was the only manner of opening commonly dropped chests, but Zod runes were purchaseable from a hypothetical Diablo II store.)
[*]
Modifies the standard game rules (experience gain, resource gain, movement speed, combat modifiers, etc.) and is either exclusive to the cash shop or not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (IP Boosts in League of Legends, Skill Unlock Packs in Guild Wars 1. Not the skills themselves, but the packs.)

Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a statistical edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that provides a larger statistical bonus than items normally found in the game. The amount of statistical edge is irrelevant.)

 


Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a probability edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that loads the dice of the RNG in your favor. The amount of the probability edge is irrelevant.)


I feel this is a fair definition of an advantage as it relates to games with cash shops. The intent is to identify any cash shop item that gives you a perk (even if it is a tiny one) over people who don't buy that item from the cash shop, however short-lived the effects may be.
That said, are you comfortable with items such as these being sold in MMORPGs with cash shops regardless of the game's subscription model? If yes, why? If not, why not? I appreciate your time and cooperation with this excercise.  Thanks for reading!



Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.


 

This was the best possible response to this insane post. Well done /thread.

If ths was reddit, I would totally upvote.

Basically you just shifted the paradigm of the peeps who sayings cash shops are p2w [have certain advantages]. How can the OP and others answer those questions.

I already have. Several times in fact.

Those are externalities that are uncontrollable by the developers. A developer does not regulate how much time you sleep, how much time you work, how much time it takes you to react to environmental hazards, etc.  A developer also doesn't control how many fingers, toes, arms, eyes, etc., you have.

They do, however, control the contents of a cash shop and the natural rules of the world. The latter is the subject of this thread. How developers account for externalities (or if they should even attempt to) is a completely different subject.

i reiterate: they can control the time. this provides no significant advantage to those players who get more time.
 this IS controllable by the devs.

it would be very unpopular, but we're arguing the advantages of money>time. you want to be rewarded for your TIME. others want to be rewarded for their MONEY. both are actually reasonable arguments. especially taken into consideration that a sub player is paying exactly the same amount. they should expect a similar reward for their money.

they certainly shouldn't expect to be pwned by every unemployed kid living off their parents' money.

the bottom line to your argument is: who should the devs give priority to? those who pay more, or those who play more? who is more important?

and why not, in the case of gw2, give EVERYONE priority?

  itbewilly

Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/09
Posts: 345

3/29/12 11:34:36 PM#65
Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by Distopia


Originally posted by Badgered86
 
You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!
Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post.



This isn't how a discussion works, if a person can't use their own rationale to approach a topic, rather they are held to a strict and forced rule of the topic, there's no discussion that will come of it, only you pushing your subjective reasoning on others.

 

The point of this thread is not to discuss the goal post, but rather how you would feel about cash shops selling advantages as defined in this thread. Please stay on topic. There are a myriad of other threads out there (especially on the Guild Wars 2 forum) about what does and doesn't qualify as buying an advantage, so I suggest going there if you want to argue about that.

Yet you make another thread about why Cash Shops are bad? Why not just post in one of those many other threads you speak of.

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2267

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

3/29/12 11:35:17 PM#66
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

without RMT, if you have an advantage it's because you played more, not because you paid more.

Making an advantage is not the same as buying one.

Isn't getting a job which will make enough money so you can buy RMT items making your own advantage?

I'm never going to be in a position where I can make 'time' to have an advantage in an mmo ever again. I have a wife, child, social and financial obligations well beyond anything that would allow me the time I had in '99-2004. Just ain't gonna happen.

You can't be suggesting that I should abandon my other responsibilities to create 'time' for video games.

You can't be suggesting that 'mmo's can never be for your demographic'.

You can't be suggesting that I don't have a perfect right to spend my money how I choose.

What you SHOULD be suggesting is that there should be some games available where time is the only advantage you can make for yourself. And guess what there are. So play them. And be glad my demographic has games suitable for my lifestyle. So I'll play those.

Why would you want to shut down a system that others enjoy, just because you don't? I know it stinks that all mmos aren't made to specially cater to your needs, but there are millions of gamers out there with a different schedule than yours.

  User Deleted
3/29/12 11:36:09 PM#67
Originally posted by gainesvilleg
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.


 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

but everyone is paying the same amount. you could argue then, they should be paying for the same time. to counter any advantages. they're all controllable by the developer. if you want uber balance, it can be enforced. it's just not fun.

time in most mmos is a significant advantage. more so than anything else. with more time, a player can amass more gold, more gear, and a greater tactical advantage over everyone else. especially in pvp. you see this in wow, especially at the beginning of each season, where you may occaisionally face a team of top-geared players who've just spent a horrifying number of hours grinding out an advantage over other players.

surely, if you were searching for something to give you more balance as you seem to be calling for, you could also point out the opposite extreme of a cash shop is similarly unbalanced to players who pay exactly the same amount. and, given they pay exactly the same amount per month, you WOULD expect a more balanced play experience. it is strange, though, that cash shops can often (not always) provide a more balanced play experience for everyone than the sub mode, don't you think?

I think this "but what about people who have more time" argument is just counter to human notions of what constitutes fair.  This is pure opinion I admit, but I think people with more time and who work harder have earned an advantage.  I look at this way:

These two things should be rewarded in-game:

  • Skill
  • Hard work

And this thing should NOT be rewarded in-game:

  • Paying extra money you earned out of game

I think this is just human nature for many.  Sure, the guy who is smarter or more skilled than you has an advantage, but we don't really begrudge him that.  We aspire to be that way.  Similarly, the guy who gets up early and works late has a work ethic that is admirable.  But those who use hacks, or glitches, or bribery, or funnel money from daddy we don't respect.  They didn't earn anything that they achieved

This basic human notion is I think at the core of why many despise a cash shop.  Sure, there are people smarter than you or who can spend more time playing, but that is the essence of what makes them better.  A cash shop spoils the ethics.

 

the easiest way is to remove loot as a whole. to get rid of gear as a reward.

wouldn't you agree? this makes everyone happy. this means we would all enjoy the GAME, rather than the expectation that, if we give enough time to the game, we can soon enjoy the GANK.

 

  gainesvilleg

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/11
Posts: 1087

3/29/12 11:36:28 PM#68
Originally posted by itbewilly
Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by Distopia


Originally posted by Badgered86
 
You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!
Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post.



This isn't how a discussion works, if a person can't use their own rationale to approach a topic, rather they are held to a strict and forced rule of the topic, there's no discussion that will come of it, only you pushing your subjective reasoning on others.

 

The point of this thread is not to discuss the goal post, but rather how you would feel about cash shops selling advantages as defined in this thread. Please stay on topic. There are a myriad of other threads out there (especially on the Guild Wars 2 forum) about what does and doesn't qualify as buying an advantage, so I suggest going there if you want to argue about that.

Yet you make another thread about why Cash Shops are bad? Why not just post in one of those many other threads you speak of.

Well, the continue closing threads.  They closed a thread earlier today and pointed people to a "one of the threads dedicated to this topic" but now they just closed that thread.  They should just create a thread:

"The cash shop thread" and just leave it open.

GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19523

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/29/12 11:37:39 PM#69

It really doesn't matter to me actually.

In every MMORPG I've ever played, regardless when I started, at the game's launch or 3 years in, there have always been players who have held an advantage over me because they either started earlier, played more often, had better hand eye coordination, better smarts, cheated with hacks, or sometimes were just plain luckier than I.

Point is, it's never been totally fair and balanced, and cash shop advantages are just one more to the list of imbalances I'll have to deal with in a MMORPG.

I've learned to accept that when playing MMORPG's there will always be folks who have advantages over me, and I just try to carve out my fun regardless.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  gainesvilleg

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/11
Posts: 1087

3/29/12 11:38:17 PM#70
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by gainesvilleg
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.


 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

but everyone is paying the same amount. you could argue then, they should be paying for the same time. to counter any advantages. they're all controllable by the developer. if you want uber balance, it can be enforced. it's just not fun.

time in most mmos is a significant advantage. more so than anything else. with more time, a player can amass more gold, more gear, and a greater tactical advantage over everyone else. especially in pvp. you see this in wow, especially at the beginning of each season, where you may occaisionally face a team of top-geared players who've just spent a horrifying number of hours grinding out an advantage over other players.

surely, if you were searching for something to give you more balance as you seem to be calling for, you could also point out the opposite extreme of a cash shop is similarly unbalanced to players who pay exactly the same amount. and, given they pay exactly the same amount per month, you WOULD expect a more balanced play experience. it is strange, though, that cash shops can often (not always) provide a more balanced play experience for everyone than the sub mode, don't you think?

I think this "but what about people who have more time" argument is just counter to human notions of what constitutes fair.  This is pure opinion I admit, but I think people with more time and who work harder have earned an advantage.  I look at this way:

These two things should be rewarded in-game:

  • Skill
  • Hard work

And this thing should NOT be rewarded in-game:

  • Paying extra money you earned out of game

I think this is just human nature for many.  Sure, the guy who is smarter or more skilled than you has an advantage, but we don't really begrudge him that.  We aspire to be that way.  Similarly, the guy who gets up early and works late has a work ethic that is admirable.  But those who use hacks, or glitches, or bribery, or funnel money from daddy we don't respect.  They didn't earn anything that they achieved

This basic human notion is I think at the core of why many despise a cash shop.  Sure, there are people smarter than you or who can spend more time playing, but that is the essence of what makes them better.  A cash shop spoils the ethics.

 

the easiest way is to remove loot as a whole. to get rid of gear as a reward.

wouldn't you agree? this makes everyone happy. this means we would all enjoy the GAME, rather than the expectation that, if we give enough time to the game, we can soon enjoy the GANK.

 

And that is one of the reasons I like my FPSers.  I never viewed my MMOs that way though.  Pure esport is something the FPSers have mastered...

GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements

  Badgered86

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/10
Posts: 189

 
OP  3/29/12 11:39:07 PM#71
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.


 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

but everyone is paying the same amount. you could argue then, they should be paying for the same time. to counter any advantages. they're all controllable by the developer. if you want uber balance, it can be enforced. it's just not fun.

time in most mmos is a significant advantage. more so than anything else. with more time, a player can amass more gold, more gear, and a greater tactical advantage over everyone else. especially in pvp. you see this in wow, especially at the beginning of each season, where you may occaisionally face a team of top-geared players who've just spent a horrifying number of hours grinding out an advantage over other players.

surely, if you were searching for something to give you more balance as you seem to be calling for, you could also point out the opposite extreme of a cash shop is similarly unbalanced to players who pay exactly the same amount. and, given they pay exactly the same amount per month, you WOULD expect a more balanced play experience. it is strange, though, that cash shops can often (not always) provide a more balanced play experience for everyone than the sub mode, don't you think?

I'm assuming we're talking about a subscription based game here. A subscription does buy you the same amount of accessible time as any other player paying for a subscription. How much a player decides to play is entirely up to them, and a developer cannot possibly account for every single externality that every single player may experience.

Everyone has different responsibilities and nobody's life situation is the same. However, the rules of a game world are the same for everyone, creating a level playing field. That is, of course, until the introduction of rule-bending advantages purchased through cash shops.

Again, this is an issue of externalities, which developers can't control. A developer can't help you if you have one arm, three kids, or a walrus farm to look after. They can, however, ensure that you are subject to the same rules as everyone else whenever you do get time to play.

You are defining balance by the amount of time a person has to play. I am defining balance (as I stated in the original post) by the equal application of game rules to all players. Again, and I can't stress this enough, a developer has no control over your life situation. They do, however, control the rules and your overall experience in game. I also completely reject the notion that some players paying for advantages while others don't benefit from those advantages somehow constitutes a more balanced gameplay experience. One player having a 120% effective experience modifer while the other has a 100% effective experience modifier is not what I would consider a balanced gameplay experience.

  User Deleted
3/29/12 11:39:07 PM#72
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Badgered86

 

You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!

Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post. In order to do so I'd like to define what I consider to be a paid-for in-game advantage. This is what we shall use as the definition of synonyms for "pay to win", "pay to cheat", "pay for power", "pay for advantages", and any similar labels in this thread.

Advantage (n.) (cash shops)

Paying real-life money for an item or benefit that:

  1. Grants access to other items or other benefits that are commonly seen in the game but are not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (Imagine if a Zod rune were a key, and said rune was the only manner of opening commonly dropped chests, but Zod runes were purchaseable from a hypothetical Diablo II store.)
  2. Modifies the standard game rules (experience gain, resource gain, movement speed, combat modifiers, etc.) and is either exclusive to the cash shop or not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (IP Boosts in League of Legends, Skill Unlock Packs in Guild Wars 1. Not the skills themselves, but the packs.)
  3. Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a statistical edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that provides a larger statistical bonus than items normally found in the game. The amount of statistical edge is irrelevant.)
  4. Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a probability edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that loads the dice of the RNG in your favor. The amount of the probability edge is irrelevant.)

I feel this is a fair definition of an advantage as it relates to games with cash shops. The intent is to identify any cash shop item that gives you a perk (even if it is a tiny one) over people who don't buy that item from the cash shop, however short-lived the effects may be.

That said, are you comfortable with items such as these being sold in MMORPGs with cash shops regardless of the game's subscription model? If yes, why? If not, why not? I appreciate your time and cooperation with this excercise.  Thanks for reading!

Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.

After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?

There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

A*******MEN.  Why is it the unemployed basement dweller, dope smoking, red bull drinking, or any other negative connotation we have for the no life stereotypical gamer, getting a pass in this argument?

 

I mean this is suppose to be a game, not a job, why does it bother you that I want to buy a potion to increase my XP gain for a little bit.  Why is it ok for developers to cater to and design games for people who spend 16+ hours a day playing a game but a developer that caters to and design games for players who play less then 8 hours a week.  I dont get it and I detest the elitist attitude that some have because they have some fallicy of their way is the only way.

 

Listen I agree buying statistical advantages is bad for the long term of a game but buying cosmetic upgrades, or more importantly time saving features is a wonderful idea as it places both types of gamers on the same level playing field.

  User Deleted
3/29/12 11:40:15 PM#73
Originally posted by gainesvilleg
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by gainesvilleg
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.


 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

but everyone is paying the same amount. you could argue then, they should be paying for the same time. to counter any advantages. they're all controllable by the developer. if you want uber balance, it can be enforced. it's just not fun.

time in most mmos is a significant advantage. more so than anything else. with more time, a player can amass more gold, more gear, and a greater tactical advantage over everyone else. especially in pvp. you see this in wow, especially at the beginning of each season, where you may occaisionally face a team of top-geared players who've just spent a horrifying number of hours grinding out an advantage over other players.

surely, if you were searching for something to give you more balance as you seem to be calling for, you could also point out the opposite extreme of a cash shop is similarly unbalanced to players who pay exactly the same amount. and, given they pay exactly the same amount per month, you WOULD expect a more balanced play experience. it is strange, though, that cash shops can often (not always) provide a more balanced play experience for everyone than the sub mode, don't you think?

I think this "but what about people who have more time" argument is just counter to human notions of what constitutes fair.  This is pure opinion I admit, but I think people with more time and who work harder have earned an advantage.  I look at this way:

These two things should be rewarded in-game:

  • Skill
  • Hard work

And this thing should NOT be rewarded in-game:

  • Paying extra money you earned out of game

I think this is just human nature for many.  Sure, the guy who is smarter or more skilled than you has an advantage, but we don't really begrudge him that.  We aspire to be that way.  Similarly, the guy who gets up early and works late has a work ethic that is admirable.  But those who use hacks, or glitches, or bribery, or funnel money from daddy we don't respect.  They didn't earn anything that they achieved

This basic human notion is I think at the core of why many despise a cash shop.  Sure, there are people smarter than you or who can spend more time playing, but that is the essence of what makes them better.  A cash shop spoils the ethics.

 

the easiest way is to remove loot as a whole. to get rid of gear as a reward.

wouldn't you agree? this makes everyone happy. this means we would all enjoy the GAME, rather than the expectation that, if we give enough time to the game, we can soon enjoy the GANK.

 

And that is one of the reasons I like my FPSers.  I never viewed my MMOs that way though.  Pure esport is something the FPSers have mastered...


http://www.fpsguru.com/

you're welcome.

  gainesvilleg

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/11
Posts: 1087

3/29/12 11:43:54 PM#74
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by gainesvilleg
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by gainesvilleg
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.


 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

but everyone is paying the same amount. you could argue then, they should be paying for the same time. to counter any advantages. they're all controllable by the developer. if you want uber balance, it can be enforced. it's just not fun.

time in most mmos is a significant advantage. more so than anything else. with more time, a player can amass more gold, more gear, and a greater tactical advantage over everyone else. especially in pvp. you see this in wow, especially at the beginning of each season, where you may occaisionally face a team of top-geared players who've just spent a horrifying number of hours grinding out an advantage over other players.

surely, if you were searching for something to give you more balance as you seem to be calling for, you could also point out the opposite extreme of a cash shop is similarly unbalanced to players who pay exactly the same amount. and, given they pay exactly the same amount per month, you WOULD expect a more balanced play experience. it is strange, though, that cash shops can often (not always) provide a more balanced play experience for everyone than the sub mode, don't you think?

I think this "but what about people who have more time" argument is just counter to human notions of what constitutes fair.  This is pure opinion I admit, but I think people with more time and who work harder have earned an advantage.  I look at this way:

These two things should be rewarded in-game:

  • Skill
  • Hard work

And this thing should NOT be rewarded in-game:

  • Paying extra money you earned out of game

I think this is just human nature for many.  Sure, the guy who is smarter or more skilled than you has an advantage, but we don't really begrudge him that.  We aspire to be that way.  Similarly, the guy who gets up early and works late has a work ethic that is admirable.  But those who use hacks, or glitches, or bribery, or funnel money from daddy we don't respect.  They didn't earn anything that they achieved

This basic human notion is I think at the core of why many despise a cash shop.  Sure, there are people smarter than you or who can spend more time playing, but that is the essence of what makes them better.  A cash shop spoils the ethics.

 

the easiest way is to remove loot as a whole. to get rid of gear as a reward.

wouldn't you agree? this makes everyone happy. this means we would all enjoy the GAME, rather than the expectation that, if we give enough time to the game, we can soon enjoy the GANK.

 

And that is one of the reasons I like my FPSers.  I never viewed my MMOs that way though.  Pure esport is something the FPSers have mastered...


http://www.fpsguru.com/

you're welcome.

Yeah, I play FPS games.  I play strategy games.  I play roguelike games.  I play action/adventure games.  I play chess.  And I play MMOs.  I play GAMES.

GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements

  Badgered86

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/10
Posts: 189

 
OP  3/29/12 11:50:06 PM#75
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by Badgered86
Originally posted by asianbboy101
Originally posted by headen

 


Originally posted by waynejr2


Originally posted by Badgered86
 
You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!
Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post. In order to do so I'd like to define what I consider to be a paid-for in-game advantage. This is what we shall use as the definition of synonyms for "pay to win", "pay to cheat", "pay for power", "pay for advantages", and any similar labels in this thread.
Advantage (n.) (cash shops)
Paying real-life money for an item or benefit that:

[*]
Grants access to other items or other benefits that are commonly seen in the game but are not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (Imagine if a Zod rune were a key, and said rune was the only manner of opening commonly dropped chests, but Zod runes were purchaseable from a hypothetical Diablo II store.)
[*]
Modifies the standard game rules (experience gain, resource gain, movement speed, combat modifiers, etc.) and is either exclusive to the cash shop or not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (IP Boosts in League of Legends, Skill Unlock Packs in Guild Wars 1. Not the skills themselves, but the packs.)

Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a statistical edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that provides a larger statistical bonus than items normally found in the game. The amount of statistical edge is irrelevant.)

 


Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a probability edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that loads the dice of the RNG in your favor. The amount of the probability edge is irrelevant.)


I feel this is a fair definition of an advantage as it relates to games with cash shops. The intent is to identify any cash shop item that gives you a perk (even if it is a tiny one) over people who don't buy that item from the cash shop, however short-lived the effects may be.
That said, are you comfortable with items such as these being sold in MMORPGs with cash shops regardless of the game's subscription model? If yes, why? If not, why not? I appreciate your time and cooperation with this excercise.  Thanks for reading!



Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.


 

This was the best possible response to this insane post. Well done /thread.

If ths was reddit, I would totally upvote.

Basically you just shifted the paradigm of the peeps who sayings cash shops are p2w [have certain advantages]. How can the OP and others answer those questions.

I already have. Several times in fact.

Those are externalities that are uncontrollable by the developers. A developer does not regulate how much time you sleep, how much time you work, how much time it takes you to react to environmental hazards, etc.  A developer also doesn't control how many fingers, toes, arms, eyes, etc., you have.

They do, however, control the contents of a cash shop and the natural rules of the world. The latter is the subject of this thread. How developers account for externalities (or if they should even attempt to) is a completely different subject.

i reiterate: they can control the time. this provides no significant advantage to those players who get more time.
 this IS controllable by the devs.

it would be very unpopular, but we're arguing the advantages of money>time. you want to be rewarded for your TIME. others want to be rewarded for their MONEY. both are actually reasonable arguments. especially taken into consideration that a sub player is paying exactly the same amount. they should expect a similar reward for their money.

they certainly shouldn't expect to be pwned by every unemployed kid living off their parents' money.

the bottom line to your argument is: who should the devs give priority to? those who pay more, or those who play more? who is more important?

and why not, in the case of gw2, give EVERYONE priority?

It seems to me that the basis of your argument here is that people without time but with money will spend their money on advantage-granting items, while people with time but without money will spend more time, thus somehow achieving equilibrium between the two. Not only do I reject that notion (as it is entirely subject to the whims of the developers with regards to the cash shop), but what about people with both time and money?

Would they not have even more of an advantage over everyone else? You're now creating three tiers of gamers, rather than the two that existed before. In addition, you're now adding different layers of rules (due to rules-modifying items from the cash shop) whearas before everyone was governed by the same set of in-game rules. It seems that the perceived problem is now more complex than it was to begin with, and potentially worse than it was as well.

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2267

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

3/29/12 11:54:17 PM#76
Originally posted by Badgered86
Originally posted by headphones
Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.


 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

but everyone is paying the same amount. you could argue then, they should be paying for the same time. to counter any advantages. they're all controllable by the developer. if you want uber balance, it can be enforced. it's just not fun.

time in most mmos is a significant advantage. more so than anything else. with more time, a player can amass more gold, more gear, and a greater tactical advantage over everyone else. especially in pvp. you see this in wow, especially at the beginning of each season, where you may occaisionally face a team of top-geared players who've just spent a horrifying number of hours grinding out an advantage over other players.

surely, if you were searching for something to give you more balance as you seem to be calling for, you could also point out the opposite extreme of a cash shop is similarly unbalanced to players who pay exactly the same amount. and, given they pay exactly the same amount per month, you WOULD expect a more balanced play experience. it is strange, though, that cash shops can often (not always) provide a more balanced play experience for everyone than the sub mode, don't you think?

I'm assuming we're talking about a subscription based game here. A subscription does buy you the same amount of accessible time as any other player paying for a subscription. How much a player decides to play is entirely up to them, and a developer cannot possibly account for every single externality that every single player may experience.

Everyone has different responsibilities and nobody's life situation is the same. However, the rules of a game world are the same for everyone, creating a level playing field. That is, of course, until the introduction of rule-bending advantages purchased through cash shops.

Again, this is an issue of externalities, which developers can't control. A developer can't help you if you have one arm, three kids, or a walrus farm to look after. They can, however, ensure that you are subject to the same rules as everyone else whenever you do get time to play.

You are defining balance by the amount of time a person has to play. I am defining balance (as I stated in the original post) by the equal application of game rules to all players. Again, and I can't stress this enough, a developer has no control over your life situation. They do, however, control the rules and your overall experience in game. I also completely reject the notion that some players paying for advantages while others don't benefit from those advantages somehow constitutes a more balanced gameplay experience. One player having a 120% effective experience modifer while the other has a 100% effective experience modifier is not what I would consider a balanced gameplay experience.

Than are you suggesting that no mmo ever should have an RMT? That the only advantage one can have would be the advantage of time they create for themselves?

So I should abandon my wife, child, job social and financial obligations to create 'time' for video games?

Surely not.

So, maybe you should get comfortable with the fact that different games are made for different demographics.

Some are made for those with 'time'. Some are made for those who don't have much time. Some are made for both, where you can gain advantage through time OR money.

In my opinion, you should be happy that there are more numerous varieties of games out there than ever before.

But if you are suggesting that all mmo's forever more should be made to cater only to those with what you deem the right amount of 'time', than I say, 

I'm glad the free market doesn't work that way.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/29/12 11:55:10 PM#77
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

without RMT, if you have an advantage it's because you played more, not because you paid more.

Making an advantage is not the same as buying one.

Ah, are we forgetting our history?

Hourly-rate games (the last was disappearing from the market right around the time UO was opening), paying more and playing more amounted >directly< to the same thing.

Subsciption-based games, the link between them became harder to see, but still existed to a degree--the guy who could afford to maintain a sub got the most practice; the guy who could afford multiple subs got his buffbots; the guy who could invest in multiple games got the most variety of experience. 

The guy who could afford gold from illicit sources got the gear too.

Spending unequal money or unequal leisure time, generally rarely commented on, unless one of our overseas friends was involved.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Badgered86

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/10
Posts: 189

 
OP  3/29/12 11:55:55 PM#78
Originally posted by Kyleran

It really doesn't matter to me actually.

In every MMORPG I've ever played, regardless when I started, at the game's launch or 3 years in, there have always been players who have held an advantage over me because they either started earlier, played more often, had better hand eye coordination, better smarts, cheated with hacks, or sometimes were just plain luckier than I.

Point is, it's never been totally fair and balanced, and cash shop advantages are just one more to the list of imbalances I'll have to deal with in a MMORPG.

I've learned to accept that when playing MMORPG's there will always be folks who have advantages over me, and I just try to carve out my fun regardless.

It's not about balance between different skill sets, disabilities, etc., but about balance in the application of the game rules to all players rather than favoring those who pay for perks. As I said, there are too many externalities that are out of the control of developers for it to be possible for them to create a balanced experience between each and every player. Even limiting the amount of time someone can play won't help, because there may be some people that only have five minutes a day to play, or that have some terrible disability that no amount of limitation would ever bring balance to.

The idea is not to handicap everyone else, but rather to apply the game rules to everyone equally. No special treatment just because you paid the developers $5.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3881

RIP City of Heroes!

3/30/12 12:01:06 AM#79
Originally posted by Badgered86
Originally posted by Kyleran

It really doesn't matter to me actually.

In every MMORPG I've ever played, regardless when I started, at the game's launch or 3 years in, there have always been players who have held an advantage over me because they either started earlier, played more often, had better hand eye coordination, better smarts, cheated with hacks, or sometimes were just plain luckier than I.

Point is, it's never been totally fair and balanced, and cash shop advantages are just one more to the list of imbalances I'll have to deal with in a MMORPG.

I've learned to accept that when playing MMORPG's there will always be folks who have advantages over me, and I just try to carve out my fun regardless.

It's not about balance between different skill sets, disabilities, etc., but about balance in the application of the game rules to all players rather than favoring those who pay for perks. As I said, there are too many externalities that are out of the control of developers for it to be possible for them to create a balanced experience between each and every player. Even limiting the amount of time someone can play won't help, because there may be some people that only have five minutes a day to play, or that have some terrible disability that no amount of limitation would ever bring balance to.

The idea is not to handicap everyone else, but rather to apply the game rules to everyone equally. No special treatment just because you paid the developers $5.

No, it's about all advantages.  If time can be one, then paying money is another.  STOP THINKING OF DISABILITIES, WHEN I SAID IT,  I MEANT SOME PEOPLE CAN TWITCH BETTER THAN OTHERS.  YOU UNDERSTAND THAT PHYISICAL ABILITIES IT NOT JUST ABOUT DISABILITIES?  iF YOU DO, THEN YOU KNOWING ARE DISTORTING THE CASE BY BRINGING UP DISABILITIES.

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2267

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

3/30/12 12:04:38 AM#80

If we truely want to be honest, we need to admit all gamers look for different things in mmo's. The implication of this thread is that we should not have RMT's of any form.

And I say, we as gamers should have a variety of games of all styles and payment plans so something out there meets our individual needs. We should not have a moral imperative that all mmo's must fit our personal opinions and lifestyles.

I'm glad there is diversity in games. And like it or not, we need to be honest, we all want something different:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/345477/page/1

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