Originally posted by Badgered86

 

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

First this is what I originally meant, so meh.. :P the goal posts are being questioned already..

Anyway, what you're not considering are people at a disadvantage in general, the guy with little time is one case, the guy who needs a little help (physical impairment) another. Etc... These people are at an outright disadvantage.That's who a lot of these products are aimed at. They're not aimed at you, they're aimed to help people keep up with you.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

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Originally posted by Distopia

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Originally posted by Badgered86
 
You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!
Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post.

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This isn't how a discussion works, if a person can't use their own rationale to approach a topic, rather they are held to a strict and forced rule of the topic, there's no discussion that will come of it, only you pushing your subjective reasoning on others.

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The point of this thread is not to discuss the goal post, but rather how you would feel about cash shops selling advantages as defined in this thread. Please stay on topic. There are a myriad of other threads out there (especially on the Guild Wars 2 forum) about what does and doesn't qualify as buying an advantage, so I suggest going there if you want to argue about that.

That's the thing, even on this topic there's another side of the story. As that would be the reasoning in voting yes or no to begin with. The question isn't is this okay, it's is this okay to you, that answer will vary based on what you view as an advantage over another or an "advantage" over time and frustration. That's the real question here, is it an advantage over other players or is it a convienence you take advantage of? How you answer this question, would greatly effect the answer to your question.

Why would one want to play a game to begin with if the mere thought of playing by the natural laws of the game world equates to "time and frustration?" Why would anyone take up a hobby that frustrates them to begin with? Or am I misunderstanding?

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

First this is what I originally meant, so meh.. :P the goal posts are being questioned already..

Anyway, what you're not considering are people at a disadvantage in general, the guy with little time is one case, the guy who needs a little help (physical impairment) another. Etc... These people are at an outright disadvantage.That's who a lot of these products are aimed at. They're not aimed at you, they're aimed to help people keep up with you.

 

Originally posted by Badgered86

Originally posted by darkehawke

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

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Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

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All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

So if you start 3 weeks before me and level to max, and I buy a xp boost potion, what advantage do I gain over you?

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

Point 1 is a good one,  but what if i'm not as good at the game as that other person. If I keep failing events because my coordination isn't so good, then he'll probably be ahead of me in xp despite my potion. Or what if I play on a server that isn't as helpful as his. The people there. Will help him get further in the game than me.

Point 2 is also good, but I perceive it to be more a personal opinion which I can respect.

I'm not trying to be annoying to you, just want to point out that many factors make up an advantage.

Also in my personal opinion a xp.boost would be a disadvantage, I'd rather learn my characters limits

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

First this is what I originally meant, so meh.. :P the goal posts are being questioned already..

Anyway, what you're not considering are people at a disadvantage in general, the guy with little time is one case, the guy who needs a little help (physical impairment) another. Etc... These people are at an outright disadvantage.That's who a lot of these products are aimed at. They're not aimed at you, they're aimed to help people keep up with you.

Again, those are external factors that a developer has no control over.  I can't regulate the amount of time you work, how quick your mind is, or how sleepy you might be at any given time. I can't take the fact that you may have seizures, migraines, carpal tunnel, one arm, one eye, etc., into consideration. The best I can do is create a set of rules for everyone to play by and treat everyone equally under those rules.

The intent of this thread is to get as straight an answer as possible out of people with regards to how they feel about bending those natural in-game rules through real-life money in cash shop.

Originally posted by Badgered86

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

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That's the thing, even on this topic there's another side of the story. As that would be the reasoning in voting yes or no to begin with. The question isn't is this okay, it's is this okay to you, that answer will vary based on what you view as an advantage over another or an "advantage" over time and frustration. That's the real question here, is it an advantage over other players or is it a convienence you take advantage of? How you answer this question, would greatly effect the answer to your question.

Why would one want to play a game to begin with if the mere thought of playing by the natural laws of the game world equates to "time and frustration?" Why would anyone take up a hobby that frustrates them to begin with? Or am I misunderstanding?

More or less a misunderstanding, as time and frustration could mean a lot of things on this subject. Not just the guy who hates the game.IE Save time could mean an advantage for the person who has none, frustration the guy that just can't handle the game due to physical difficulty or etc..

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

First this is what I originally meant, so meh.. :P the goal posts are being questioned already..

Anyway, what you're not considering are people at a disadvantage in general, the guy with little time is one case, the guy who needs a little help (physical impairment) another. Etc... These people are at an outright disadvantage.That's who a lot of these products are aimed at. They're not aimed at you, they're aimed to help people keep up with you.

 

 

Wow, so p2w is really charitable then, so the rich disabled can beat the poor disabled

Jump a little higher next time you missed that one.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

First this is what I originally meant, so meh.. :P the goal posts are being questioned already..

Anyway, what you're not considering are people at a disadvantage in general, the guy with little time is one case, the guy who needs a little help (physical impairment) another. Etc... These people are at an outright disadvantage.That's who a lot of these products are aimed at. They're not aimed at you, they're aimed to help people keep up with you.

 

And I don't feel that this is an inherently bad idea, but if this part of the customer base is the one pumping the most money into the game, why should a game company bother to cater to the other guys? Why should they bother to keep making new content for players that aren't paying as much if anything, when they could both save and make more money just by creating some novelty widget, chuck it in the cash shop, and call it a day?

I am comfortable to an extent, because my comfort level changes based on the item content within the cash shop.  I don't see cash shops as good or bad.  I started to use your examples and state why I was comfortable, or not, with those types of items.  However, the determining factor (for me) really is in the details of those items.  If a player receives a benefit from an item, then the variables of that item being consumable, rechargable, reusable on cooldown, as well as the type of benefit (movement speed, experience bonus), in combination with percentages, etc, all come into the calculation of whether or not I have an issue.  I cannot speak for others, but that's how I see it.

My answer is this:

I have no answer for you.

With the varying degrees to which cash shops exist and the range of items of a beneficial nature included in said cash shop, i am ok with some but not with others. My main outlook is based upon these factors: the amount of my involvement in that particular game and if the involvement is high, they the amount of bonus cs items provide. If i am heavy into a game and the cash shop provides heaps of items of a beneficial nature to those willing to pay out of the ass for it, then yeah, i hate it. This will not cause me to stop playing a game that i am heavy involved in however. If i only play the game casually with little interest towards the main goal of that game, then i don't care if they put super hack type stat bonuses into the cash shop cause i care little about the game as a whole. I enjoy playing LoL, but i mostly play vs bots and don't care how much ip i have. If the advantages sold (as a whole) are very small in scale and hardly detrimental to the game, then more power to the people paying for them, they will need it when they face me. I hope this type of answer is what you were looking for.

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

First this is what I originally meant, so meh.. :P the goal posts are being questioned already..

Anyway, what you're not considering are people at a disadvantage in general, the guy with little time is one case, the guy who needs a little help (physical impairment) another. Etc... These people are at an outright disadvantage.That's who a lot of these products are aimed at. They're not aimed at you, they're aimed to help people keep up with you.

 

And I don't feel that this is an inherently bad idea, but if this part of the customer base is the one pumping the most money into the game, why should a game company bother to cater to the other guys? Why should they bother to keep making new content for players that aren't paying as much if anything, when they could both save and make more money just by creating some novelty widget, chuck it in the cash shop, and call it a day?

Very good point as I agree, many will take advantage of those who will pay,and focus on them,  not to mention they can't control who takes advantage of these features. So they do a horrible job of balancing the environment, I'm not oblivious to that. Which is why I don't support the change to RMT.

Originally posted by Badgered86

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

I voted no but I disagree with your definition of pay to win. I would agree with 3 and 4. Anything that provides a solid, comparable statistical advantage is unfair. XP boosts etc I think are merely convenient, so I completely disagree with 1 and 2, largely due to the way you've worded them and the bias that's been included.

 

The whole problem with this debate is where the goal posts are. You'll never get everyone to agree on what's pay to win and what isn't. That being said I have never bought anything from a game's cash shop, and if I find that progression becomes hindered by that I have stopped playing the game.

Would you find experience boosts simply a "matter of convenience" in a competitive open PvP MMORPG? Would you disagree that leveling faster/gaining more gold/gaining better armor through various consuambles that increase your XP gain, gold gain, and probability at finding quality gear would constitute an advantage in the hypothetical game world?

It probably would but I wouldn't play such a game for 3 main reasons. 1st, level based PvP games suck no matter which way you look at it. 2nd, gear grind types of games which result in PvP imbalance due to gear also suck. 3rd, I detest open world FFA PvP games because they attract the absolute worst kind of gankers and griefers.

We're back to those goal posts again. In some games those items would be a problem but in others they're really not. It's impossible to make blanket statements about what would or wouldn't be unfair without looking at the specific MMO. If you're looking at MMO's with competetive PvP and it's level based or gear based, then yes you have a problem. If the game is primarily about PvE then it isn't.

If the game's PvP based but not gear dependant and more about skill, and you get scaled up/down then again, I'd say not a problem. Like, for example, GW2.

Look at WoW. If you could get xp boosts in their cash shop as well as your celestial mount, would it really break the game? I don't think it would. They've done a good enough job of that already with the gear grind, so who cares if you level an alt up a bit faster?

This is far too complex a subject to just say "this is good and this is bad" due to the large number of other factors which have to be taken into account, and which vary from game to game.

Very recently, Micro transactions have surpassed the subscription model in popularity among a certain demographic. And I love that term to...there is little that is "micro" about them.

The idea is that the benevolent development company is intentionally sabotaging their own shop for the improved online experience of those who are admittedly NOT going to use it over the experience of those who would. They are convinced that the contents of the shop are pointless and have no value in the game...to those in the know. Even though the shop is still in beta and the company probably wanted to only test a few of the borderline items and that the real contents were probably NOT yet released to the beta test group.

But, I'd just like to point out one thing:

It's a fact Pay to Win = Pay The Bills

All you gotta do is go over to PWI's website and you will see one of the largest and fastest growing online gaming companies there is. P2W has brought PWI up to 13 titles in only a few years. So it would seem there are enough who will buy advantage to justify it.

But OH NO, this benevolent company will stand in the gap! No, they are not interested in profits like the ones mentioned above, and will be satisfied with simply keeping the electric bills paid as long as it puts a smile on their happy customer's faces. Yep, that's right. They are gonna keep coding their game for a bunch of freeloaders who think people with money are stupid.

Now, if you put yourself in the spender's shoes....Why are you going to use the shop?

I mean consistently..not once or twice?

It's to better your overall experience. How that happens depends on the game.

In a PVP based game guess what. That means for the spender to have a better overall experiences than a non spender, it means WIN. otherwise why on earth would the spender come back and spend again.

I wonder if it would be possible to limit usage to certain cash-shop items on a time based basis, say you can't buy an exp. pot (or at least use it) if you put [this much] time into the game on a given weekly basis.

Would that at least make these things more acceptable to people?

Originally posted by darkehawke

Originally posted by Badgered86

Originally posted by darkehawke

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

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Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

---

 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

So if you start 3 weeks before me and level to max, and I buy a xp boost potion, what advantage do I gain over you?

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

Point 1 is a good one,  but what if i'm not as good at the game as that other person. If I keep failing events because my coordination isn't so good, then he'll probably be ahead of me in xp despite my potion. Or what if I play on a server that isn't as helpful as his. The people there. Will help him get further in the game than me.

Point 2 is also good, but I perceive it to be more a personal opinion which I can respect.

I'm not trying to be annoying to you, just want to point out that many factors make up an advantage.

Also in my personal opinion a xp.boost would be a disadvantage, I'd rather learn my characters limits

You're not annoying me at all.  You're making me think through my positions which was part of the intent of this thread.  I want us all to go through the mental excercise and really work through what we think and why we think it. Thanks for playing along. :)

Your inability to complete an event, mission, or dungeon would in fact hinder your progress and put the person(s) without cash shop advantages ahead of you. However, not all cash shop players will be bad, nor will they all be good. The fact remains that the average player with advantage granting cash shop items will have an edge over the average player without cash shop items.

With regards to people on different servers being more or less helpful than those on other servers, that's not really something a developer can control. However, even if your server is more helpful than the other, you would all be playing by the same natural game rules, so I don't think that argument is directly analagous to the impacts of cash shop advantages, which by their nature alter the game rules for those who use them.

I can see where you're coming from with regards to learning your character. However, most games have rather low learning curves, ensuring that you will get up to speed pretty quickly and just spam the same rotations over and over. I don't think 20% faster leveling will directly correlate to a 20% reduced understanding of one's character with how easy games have gotten in today's market.

Originally posted by Distopia

I wonder if it would be possible to limit usage to certain cash-shop items on a time based basis, say you can't buy an exp. pot (or at least use it) if you put [this much] time into the game on a given weekly basis.

Would that at least make these things more acceptable to people?

Well exp pot don't bother me really but I figure you just used them as an example so..

While that might make sense from a gamers side. I've played enough F2P titles to know some of the biggest spenders are some of the people who also play the most. So from a company perspective limiting the buying power of your biggest consumer to appease someone who is no more then a potential customer is hard thing for them to do.

I don't approve of any advantage that can be bought in a cash shop, rewards should be earned imo. 

Originally posted by Distopia

I wonder if it would be possible to limit usage to certain cash-shop items on a time based basis, say you can't buy an exp. pot (or at least use it) if you put [this much] time into the game on a given weekly basis.

Would that at least make these things more acceptable to people?

If that were a goal earned through gameplay that was not purchaseable on the shop then yes, I'd be fine with it as everyone has access to it without using the cash shop to get more of it. Otherwise this would be the cash shop equivalent of giving out free heroin to get everyone hooked on it, turning them into customers. I'm aware that boosts aren't addictive, but its the same general marketing principle.

The most fair and equitiable experience boost I've seen is rested experience. Everyone gets equal access to it without having to use a cash shop, and it really is there to help "casual" players keep up with "hardcore" players.

Conditional yes. The only part of your definition that i see as an unfair advantage (Pay to Win) is number 3. SO without that yes, absolutely i love games that include all other parts of this (not seen as Pay to win, but definately still an advantage)

I think its important to note that OP believes any "advantage" makes a game Pay to Win. Im unemployed, and therefore i spend at least 16-20 hours every day in a game. I can therefore level and progress WAY more than the average or casual player. This gives me a HUGE advantage over those players, therefore by OP definition, every single game i play (regardless of what the game is) is Pay to Win.

Congratulations "every company that creates games" for making every single title ever Pay to Win.  /sarcasm