Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Votan

Lets take a look at what players SWTOR is not for since it is not the "game".  Of couse I am making sweeping generalities here.

  

• not for achievers(everything is easy),
• not for explorers(game world is small and really has nothing in it is worth exploring that you will not see anyway following the scripted story),
• not for killers(pvp is terrible)
• not for roleplayers or socializers as you will find almost no players in the game world to interact with outside of fleet.  So if you do not fall into any of these this game may is may be for you.  

 

Ohh if you like to group while leveling this game is also not for you, sorry but the main selling point of the game the "story" is single player only.

I would disagree on the explorers part, simply because of the holocron / datacrons they have hidden around the world. That is actually one of the more interesting parts in the game, imho. Everything else, you're more or less right about.

Exhaustion Zones counter the holocrons/datacrons as an addition to "exploration" as they are with-in that linear scripted tunnel

In this case, it's a combination of both. The game is incredibly mediocre, and it's up to the player whether or not they're fine with mediocrity. I was fine with it for a month... but the game has no lasting appeal.

That being said, I've played WoW for an extended period of time, and people will say the same thing about it. I personally think that, yes, it's mediocre, but it's still better than anything else out there at the moment simply because games like SWTOR try to unsuccessfully copy it.

Which is sad to say the least.

Originally posted by Sith2112

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Sith2112

Originally posted by Yamota

Yeah it is the customers fault for not liking the product. 

Actually it is. People want to run out and buy something without making sure they are going to like it (i.e research) and then rant because it doesn't meet their requirements? Yeah, it's their fault.

No. It is not. If you bring out a product which people dont like it is your fault for not gauging your potential customers before creating the product. You can never say it is the customers fault for not liking your product. It is the responsibility of the producers/developers to create something which people will like, it is never the responsibility of consumers to like a product, ever.

ok so by your logic. 

I don't like Mars bars. So I buy one take a bite and then realize that I don't like it, it's their fault? They said the Mars bar were very good and tasty. It's their fault because my idea of tasty is differrent from theirs? 

So BW is supposed to know what everyone likes and make a game for them?

As far as the bugs and lack of certain fetaures go? Well, unlike the masses out there, I actually waited a month and did some research on how things were before making my choice. Yes, there are issues but I'm enjoying the game enough to wait for the resolution. 

"It's never the responsibility of the consumer to like a product ever." - Not even sure what to say about that except it's probably the dumbest thing I have read on this forum and that says a lot.

 

Sorry but this analogy does not fit.  A company selling me a candy bar, is not telling me this candy bar contains solid gold, it's the best candy bar ever, it has soooo many hours of enjoyment.  It's a candy bar, you know what's inside it. 

Lets take SWTOR pvp.  I am no pvper, and the pvp was not the reason why I disliked the game...but, up until release the hype monkeys at Bioware had told us how awesome the PvP is going to be. Ilum is going to be amazing.  They have top notch industry professionals working on the PvP aspects of the game.  Turns out none was that true.  The unfortunate thing is that none of us could test those things in beta, they were not available to us, at least not to me.  So the pvpers had to take their word for it.  It was not a matter of people not doing research, they couldn't as Bioware didn't want that info to be let out. 

Oh I see, they were all supposed to wait a month to buy the game?  It's the consumer's fault they didn't like a product?  That is ludicrous man.  Sure people are going to have different wants and desires in a game, everyone is different.  But in the end it's the developers job to make a fun game, and some of us did not like it.  It did not live up to the artificial expectations that Bioware and our community had set for the game FOR SOME OF US.

I am glad you enjoy the game, don't get me wrong.  I harbor no ill will against anyone enjoying the game.  But you cannot tell me that is MY FAULT for not liking a product. 

I have the feeling that SWTOR 1.0 was meant to appeal to singleplayer people. It was very evident that there was a glaring lack of feature for all MMOs veterans.

Examples? Guild Interface. They had all their marketing on guilds, on their "deployment," and honestly me and my guildmates thought that there will be lots of guild perks / functionalities as in RIFT.

Even when I played betas, I thought, "oh well they will be ready for 1.0.

What a joke that turned out to be. The Guild Interface is nothing more than a friend list with no other functionality (right-click on your guildmates' name bring no option...), made in a monochromatic bluish color by someone using Microsoft Paint for the first time. And besides it was even bugged!

Other MMOs aspects missing from 1.0 (endgame bugged, PvP bugged, very linear FP far from the planets, no server forums, no customizable UI etc.) is indeed a sign they have chosen to cater first to singleplayer people, those who played the game because it was Bioware, the new Mass Effect / KoTOR /Dragon Age. These players will not give a damn about UI, endgame, PvP or GTN stuff. They will play the game as an singleplayer RPG and quit as soon as they would reach 50.

Then now in 1.2, it seems they are trying to reach out for MMOs veterans. It might be too late though (it is probably for me). We will see how it goes.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by rdrpappy

If you bought pong and didn't like it, it's your fault, that's the point. Stop playing rpg's if you want fps pvp.

Yeah, but in that case TORs shouldn't had the PvP in the first case, and the marketting was what lured these people in.

The golden rule of games is "Do it right or not at all".

So as I see it are both part to blame, EAs marketting tricked people who shouldn't have played the game to buy it and Bioware added PvP as an afterthought because they think MMOs must have it.

The same have happened in  PvP based games who added some lame PvE and tried to sell to PvE fans as well. If it ain't good it will hurt your game, no matter if you sell more boxes the first month.

Loke is correct......BW shot themselves in the foot by trying to capture the PVP crowd as well.

Those of us that enjoy PVE most arent focusing on the PVP focus so much, so it can appear rather trivial if PVP has issues.

That said, the focus was plainly on story. I dont know why folks thought they would be getting UO/DF mechanics.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by rdrpappy

If you bought pong and didn't like it, it's your fault, that's the point. Stop playing rpg's if you want fps pvp.

Yeah, but in that case TORs shouldn't had the PvP in the first case, and the marketting was what lured these people in.

The golden rule of games is "Do it right or not at all".

So as I see it are both part to blame, EAs marketting tricked people who shouldn't have played the game to buy it and Bioware added PvP as an afterthought because they think MMOs must have it.

The same have happened in  PvP based games who added some lame PvE and tried to sell to PvE fans as well. If it ain't good it will hurt your game, no matter if you sell more boxes the first month.

Loke is correct......BW shot themselves in the foot by trying to capture the PVP crowd as well.

 

Those of us that enjoy PVE most arent focusing on the PVP focus so much, so it can appear rather trivial if PVP has issues.

 

That said, the focus was plainly on story. I dont know why folks thought they would be getting UO/DF mechanics.

Except the story isn't up.to much either.  Chapter 1 was predictable, but it did keep my interest. Chapter 2 was just plain boring as hell and put me off levelling.

More effort could have been spent on the story. I said somewhere else they're trying to stretch one of their normal sized stories to fit a mmo, and it doesn't work. PVP isn't the only place this game falls down on at all.

Okay this is beyond ridiculous, but I will wade in here.

When I began MMOs, the allure wasn't "Halo", or "Solo" gaming, it was being in a persistant world that contained thousands of players at any given time. The thing that pulled me in was the community aspect, the game had it's own currency, it's own guilds, each varied and different. It had epic battles with fellow players against rival opponents, some of them personal, and massive battles against mosters.

This wasn't on my console, this wasn't by myself, this was with PEOPLE everytime. MMOs that FOUNDED this genre, built upon this principle. You state that Open world is for Halo fans, yet what about games like Ultima Online, one of the first MMOs founded?

What about other MMOs with EQ where raids where not 8 man bore fests, but massive number of players? What about (this will get some laughs), games like The Matrix Online, where RPG wasn't written content left to spew, but a continuously developed world that constantly changed?

TOR is a solid in many ways, but the reason, I feel, that many gamers become dilusioned is because alot of people (in my experience of knowing lot's of MMO'ers), desire this. They don't want to sit there in instanced content, they want to be in a living breathing "home from home" world that grows and changes around them.

To even THINK that Open world PvP is for Halo players is not only straight up wrong, but it just proves how beyond stupid you are. It's like comparing basketball and football, yes they are both sports, but completely different. If anything, WARZONES are closer to Halo that Open PvP, equal sides fighting over objectives. In fact I could sit here, spew the same rubbish to you, only substitute Open PvP with Warzones, and the funny thing is, I would have more of a point.

Open PvP is beyond this priciple, it's spontanious, it's changing, and at any given time things maybe different. Yes you may control every keep around, but tomorrow you may not. Things mean something, and long hard battles mean something. How many out of the 1000s of Warzones, do you clearly remember?  In open PvP, in a living breathing world, your guild may summount to something, strike fear in their hearts today, but tomorrow it gets completely overwhelmed and squashed. 

The same principle applies over every form of content, I think it's safe to say that MMOs were designed as persistant worlds, and that has not changed. I am not against games like SWTOR, but I am tired of them. I am tired of people saying it has story, and story means things, when really, after I finished, the world is lifeless, pointless to be on, and your name, meaningless.

We are tired of being constrained to parties, we are tired of doing the same dull map with 8 v 8, we are tired of our world becoming lifeless, after it's completed. This is our opinion, this is not what our genre was founded upon, and yes things changed, but when it's changing to the very thing we left behind, it's not going to go down well. It's us not the game, perhaps, but at the end of the day, when that game is basically a weaker version of certain other major MMOs we know, what do you expect to happen? Oh that's right we should blame ourselves and not blame the so called "great thinkers" of the gaming industry for making the same boring horse-shit as everything else.

I hate calling troll to people with different opinions to me, but really? To proclaim that open PvP (WHICH IS WHAT THIS GENRE WAS FOUNDED ON), is for FPS fans, (when Warzones are a direct descendant of this principle, something that TOR now ONLY offers), is just so beyond dumb, and ill-informed, it's mind-boggling.

Now put your head back into the sand, oh, and have fun doing small party exercises like you do in Halo, I'll be rolling it in GW2 where massive scale PvE and PvP will be happening once again.

TH

GW2, Everyone wants that to be the online death dealer of all times and what not, but Planetside 2 will cut to the chase quicker for most foam at the mouth, quest hating, mmofps folk.

I wont post negative content at either forums because I dont play or intend to play either, feel free to hold me to that, I like this game, I like mmoRPG's.

Originally posted by TheHidden012

Okay this is beyond ridiculous, but I will wade in here.

When I began MMOs, the allure wasn't "Halo", or "Solo" gaming, it was being in a persistant world that contained thousands of players at any given time. The thing that pulled me in was the community aspect, the game had it's own currency, it's own guilds, each varied and different. It had epic battles with fellow players against rival opponents, some of them personal, and massive battles against mosters.

This wasn't on my console, this wasn't by myself, this was with PEOPLE everytime. MMOs that FOUNDED this genre, built upon this principle. You state that Open world is for Halo fans, yet what about games like Ultima Online, one of the first MMOs founded?

What about other MMOs with EQ where raids where not 8 man bore fests, but massive number of players? What about (this will get some laughs), games like The Matrix Online, where RPG wasn't written content left to spew, but a continuously developed world that constantly changed?

TOR is a solid in many ways, but the reason, I feel, that many gamers become dilusioned is because alot of people (in my experience of knowing lot's of MMO'ers), desire this. They don't want to sit there in instanced content, they want to be in a living breathing "home from home" world that grows and changes around them.

To even THINK that Open world PvP is for Halo players is not only straight up wrong, but it just proves how beyond stupid you are. It's like comparing basketball and football, yes they are both sports, but completely different. If anything, WARZONES are closer to Halo that Open PvP, equal sides fighting over objectives. In fact I could sit here, spew the same rubbish to you, only substitute Open PvP with Warzones, and the funny thing is, I would have more of a point.

Open PvP is beyond this priciple, it's spontanious, it's changing, and at any given time things maybe different. Yes you may control every keep around, but tomorrow you may not. Things mean something, and long hard battles mean something. How many out of the 1000s of Warzones, do you clearly remember?  In open PvP, in a living breathing world, your guild may summount to something, strike fear in their hearts today, but tomorrow it gets completely overwhelmed and squashed. 

The same principle applies over every form of content, I think it's safe to say that MMOs were designed as persistant worlds, and that has not changed. I am not against games like SWTOR, but I am tired of them. I am tired of people saying it has story, and story means things, when really, after I finished, the world is lifeless, pointless to be on, and your name, meaningless.

We are tired of being constrained to parties, we are tired of doing the same dull map with 8 v 8, we are tired of our world becoming lifeless, after it's completed. This is our opinion, this is not what our genre was founded upon, and yes things changed, but when it's changing to the very thing we left behind, it's not going to go down well. It's us not the game, perhaps, but at the end of the day, when that game is basically a weaker version of certain other major MMOs we know, what do you expect to happen? Oh that's right we should blame ourselves and not blame the so called "great thinkers" of the gaming industry for making the same boring horse-shit as everything else.

I hate calling troll to people with different opinions to me, but really? To proclaim that open PvP (WHICH IS WHAT THIS GENRE WAS FOUNDED ON), is for FPS fans, (when Warzones are a direct descendant of this principle, something that TOR now ONLY offers), is just so beyond dumb, and ill-informed, it's mind-boggling.

Now put your head back into the sand, oh, and have fun doing small party exercises like you do in Halo, I'll be rolling it in GW2 where massive scale PvE and PvP will be happening once again.

TH

UO may of hit the market before EQ, but it was scrambling to Trammal it up once they saw folks werent interested in forced PVP.

PVE rules MMO gaming. PVP is a side show attraction.

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Originally posted by franko79
[Mod Edit]

What's your favorite mmorpg?

Well my favorite mmo was SWG pre-cu and it had everything that a mmorpg should offer. Sure it had it's bugs and some balance issues, but as for, community, player interdependency, real player economy, open world pvp and a whole bucket more, you couldn't get a better game. Interesting, I played SWG from beta, sat around a campfire with my scout for hours, afk leveling in meatlump gangs, waiting for an hour to get my doctor buffs, camping rare mobs for days, did the long Jedi routine, all of it.   No one else played the game.......the ultimate sandbox and nobody showed up to play it, it flopped, bombed, utterly failed.

I posted this before and i believe this to be the truth about TOR. Bioware's main intention was to cater to the KOTOR fans first and the mmo player second. It doesn't take playing the game very long to see that the game was made in the SPRPG model with coop features added, to try and satisfy and sell it as a mmorpg, It also didn't hurt that the game uses the SW IP.

The people that are defending TOR i would gander were bigger KOTOR fans than mmorpg gamers. I loved KOTOR myself, but it being what it is and Bioware trying to sell TOR as this huge mmorpg when it really is just KOTOR 3 with coop, is just flat out wrong.

Bioware took the chance and was betting that by using the SW brand and adding in VO and story, they could get by and somehow fool mmo gamers to thinking that the most important systems that really make up a great mmorpg could be overlooked and less wanted, which of course they bet wrong and are now trying to add in those things on top of a SP game foundation, that will not work. Another poster said it best. Bioware was selling TOR as a mmorpg with story and what they delivered was a story with .25% mmo.

As a SW fan first and a mmorpg gamer second, i really wish Bioware would have never been allowed to develope this game. It would have been better for them and for the mmo community if they would have stuck with just making KOTOR 3 and if they wanted to get into making mmo's, let them screw up their own IP by making a ME mmo and leaving the SW IP to a company that actually knows how to do the SW IP right. Bioware has atleast for me, earned a little time to roll out some additions, they were pressed to release, have a good start, not perfect but good enough to warrant the few months they need to generate 1.2.

 

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Originally posted by Thillian

I would not call SWTOR too much of an RPG either. Watching a movie is not Roleplaying. Spending 33% of the time in a cut-scene or dialogue does not make it more RolePlaying. Reading a book is not Roleplaying. In SWTOR, the "roleplaying" is as passive as it can be in a video game. Being you, I wouldn't make much fun of those that wish to play an open world MMORPG, since that is actually much more "roleplaying" that you'll ever get by watching a 3 minute cut-scene.

I would call it a very good rpg, cutscenes take the place of the old read the wall of text over the npc's head, that's an improvement by any account.

Name me the rpg you like, I have played many and open world aka sandbox never amounts to more than a niche and everyone damn well knows it.

You can trivialize and be sarcastic, but the fact is many people hate rpgs, have never role played, ridicule those that do and yet flock to rpg games with the veiled hopes of making it a hop and pop persistant first person shooter.

Open world is the pariah of twitch gamers who just wont let go of trying to convert rpgs into Halo.

Omg I love this!

Thank you rdrpappy so fucking clever!

Brilliant thread btw!

Originally posted by Calerxes

Originally posted by Yamota

Yeah it is the customers fault for not liking the product. 

 

You still around I thought SW:TOR was not to your liking?

It wasn't to his liking even after Beta and all the information released on the game and he still bought the game.

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Originally posted by franko79
[Mod Edit]

What's your favorite mmorpg?

Well my favorite mmo was SWG pre-cu and it had everything that a mmorpg should offer. Sure it had it's bugs and some balance issues, but as for, community, player interdependency, real player economy, open world pvp and a whole bucket more, you couldn't get a better game. Interesting, I played SWG from beta, sat around a campfire with my scout for hours, afk leveling in meatlump gangs, waiting for an hour to get my doctor buffs, camping rare mobs for days, did the long Jedi routine, all of it.   No one else played the game.......the ultimate sandbox and nobody showed up to play it, it flopped, bombed, utterly failed.

I posted this before and i believe this to be the truth about TOR. Bioware's main intention was to cater to the KOTOR fans first and the mmo player second. It doesn't take playing the game very long to see that the game was made in the SPRPG model with coop features added, to try and satisfy and sell it as a mmorpg, It also didn't hurt that the game uses the SW IP.

The people that are defending TOR i would gander were bigger KOTOR fans than mmorpg gamers. I loved KOTOR myself, but it being what it is and Bioware trying to sell TOR as this huge mmorpg when it really is just KOTOR 3 with coop, is just flat out wrong.

Bioware took the chance and was betting that by using the SW brand and adding in VO and story, they could get by and somehow fool mmo gamers to thinking that the most important systems that really make up a great mmorpg could be overlooked and less wanted, which of course they bet wrong and are now trying to add in those things on top of a SP game foundation, that will not work. Another poster said it best. Bioware was selling TOR as a mmorpg with story and what they delivered was a story with .25% mmo.

As a SW fan first and a mmorpg gamer second, i really wish Bioware would have never been allowed to develope this game. It would have been better for them and for the mmo community if they would have stuck with just making KOTOR 3 and if they wanted to get into making mmo's, let them screw up their own IP by making a ME mmo and leaving the SW IP to a company that actually knows how to do the SW IP right. Bioware has atleast for me, earned a little time to roll out some additions, they were pressed to release, have a good start, not perfect but good enough to warrant the few months they need to generate 1.2.

 

 

Really, close to 500k subs in the beginning and around 250k subs that was maintained until the NGE. I mean, the Kauri server was always jammed packed at any time of the night or day during the pre-cu and cu era of the game for me. Kinda funny, i seen more people just hanging out in the Coronet cantina for about 30 minutes then i did the whole month and a half i spent in TOR. I guess you have what's called selective amnesia. If TOR has 1.7 million active subs i sure would love to know where they are, cause they are surely not playing the game.

Originally posted by Aethaeryn

Originally posted by Xthos

Originally posted by rdrpappy

If you bought pong and didn't like it, it's your fault, that's the point. Stop playing rpg's if you want fps pvp.

 I wanted a good MMO, so I stopped playing TOR...I got the quit playing it down.

 

LOL!  This is sooo true of most of us I think :)

Steps:

1. quit playing the games you hate

2. stop buying them before they are released

3. stop buying them

4. decide what you want to play other than "MMO"

5. buy that game (MMO or not)

People like MMOs because of the community and the carrot and stick. . . the community is gone, they took the stick out and that same old carrot is getting moldy and starting to upset your stomach when you get a nibble.. even if they paint it purple :)

Commen Sense!

Originally posted by Sith2112

Originally posted by Yamota

Yeah it is the customers fault for not liking the product. 

Actually it is. People want to run out and buy something without making sure they are going to like it (i.e research) and then rant because it doesn't meet their requirements? Yeah, it's their fault.

You mean how he played Beta and read all the info before the game launched and still bought the game!

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by itgrowls

 

It amazes me how many people on these forums who were complaining were also saying "yeah, i paid for 6 months of game time but i won't be logging in until their miracle patch" what does that tell the devs? "people must really like our game look at their sub" instead of "when was the last time they logged in, oh over a month ago huh?"

I find that to be interesting as well. So many posters here who were trashing this game left and right during devlopment bought the game and then complained that it wasn't to their liking and they were ripped off. It reminds me of the poll taken years ago of people who listen to Howard Stern even though they can't stand him. If you don't like the looks of a game, then DON'T BUY IT. There's no award coming your way for playing every MMO that gets released.

Oh yeah, you mean like that one French kid!

Originally posted by Worstluck

Originally posted by Sith2112

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Sith2112

Originally posted by Yamota

Yeah it is the customers fault for not liking the product. 

Actually it is. People want to run out and buy something without making sure they are going to like it (i.e research) and then rant because it doesn't meet their requirements? Yeah, it's their fault.

No. It is not. If you bring out a product which people dont like it is your fault for not gauging your potential customers before creating the product. You can never say it is the customers fault for not liking your product. It is the responsibility of the producers/developers to create something which people will like, it is never the responsibility of consumers to like a product, ever.

ok so by your logic. 

I don't like Mars bars. So I buy one take a bite and then realize that I don't like it, it's their fault? They said the Mars bar were very good and tasty. It's their fault because my idea of tasty is differrent from theirs? 

So BW is supposed to know what everyone likes and make a game for them?

As far as the bugs and lack of certain fetaures go? Well, unlike the masses out there, I actually waited a month and did some research on how things were before making my choice. Yes, there are issues but I'm enjoying the game enough to wait for the resolution. 

"It's never the responsibility of the consumer to like a product ever." - Not even sure what to say about that except it's probably the dumbest thing I have read on this forum and that says a lot.

 

 

Sorry but this analogy does not fit.  A company selling me a candy bar, is not telling me this candy bar contains solid gold, it's the best candy bar ever, it has soooo many hours of enjoyment.  It's a candy bar, you know what's inside it. 

 

Lets take SWTOR pvp.  I am no pvper, and the pvp was not the reason why I disliked the game...but, up until release the hype monkeys at Bioware had told us how awesome the PvP is going to be. Ilum is going to be amazing.  They have top notch industry professionals working on the PvP aspects of the game.  Turns out none was that true.  The unfortunate thing is that none of us could test those things in beta, they were not available to us, at least not to me.  So the pvpers had to take their word for it.  It was not a matter of people not doing research, they couldn't as Bioware didn't want that info to be let out. 

 

Oh I see, they were all supposed to wait a month to buy the game?  It's the consumer's fault they didn't like a product?  That is ludicrous man.  Sure people are going to have different wants and desires in a game, everyone is different.  But in the end it's the developers job to make a fun game, and some of us did not like it.  It did not live up to the artificial expectations that Bioware and our community had set for the game FOR SOME OF US.

 

I am glad you enjoy the game, don't get me wrong.  I harbor no ill will against anyone enjoying the game.  But you cannot tell me that is MY FAULT for not liking a product. 

Quality and Value!

You Can Always Trust Mars! <----1986 Commercial

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Open world is the pariah of twitch gamers who just wont let go of trying to convert rpgs into Halo.

Accurate.

Nice to see that someone around here gets it, props to you friend.

It is the player... that can allow meh games to be enjoyed. Lets face the facts, SWTOR does absolutely NOTHING to bring anything new to the table. Its attempt at bringing story (in a style that isn't new, check their single player games) is cut short by the fact its an MMO, meaning actions are far more restricted in their world wide outcome. Story is attempted as its big draw point and yet it doesn't feel engaging after so long. I'm complaining about its MOST UNIQUE AND STRONGEST FEATURE, there is an issue there.

That being said, can you completely flame this game? No. There are far worst out there, but there are also a lot better. Its just meh... just meh. In the end though players can find enjoyment out of it. So many games have players that others consider just terrible because everyone has their own tastes. Its just a fact that we all have our own tastes. I for one (despite all the frusteration) liked to pop the game Deadly Towers in my NES. Was it a good game? HELL NO, but I still had some joy out of playing it. 

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Sorry if this rpg game didn't meet your fps style,

 

Lol...do some of you really believe this type of nonsense or are you simply trying to get a rise out of people?