Not quite. Even the gameplay demos and articles from a year ago have a lot of valid information as to the state of the game on release.

The things players actually have a valid point in complaining about largely is the cut down textures. The gameplay core mechanics have not changed dramatically and neither has the progression or playstyle. The habit of world hopping and the pvp arena content is in the same boat too.

If people wanted to know they would have known. All the folk saying that bioware kept all this stuff hidden from them is lying to save face over the fact that they gave little more than a cursory glance at the information actually provided.

As someone who plays this game and enjoys his time doing so, I still have serious issues with the model they chose to design TOR after, especially after having some great ideas what with the uniqueness of leveling and character building in their original KOTOR series (not to mention, superior story telling). I do have to say, however, that trying to blame the players for vocally disliking the game probably has nothing to do with the reasons you've listed, and is the same shill response we hear from developers when things start to take a turn for the worst.

There's a reason people give this game as much shit as they do, and faults deserve to be criticized.

Faults and problems should certainly be addressed, but every person who believes the game isn't what they were lead to believe it is has very blatantly not done any due diligence on what the game was beforehand and suffered for it because they let the notions of what the game should have been cloud the reality of what it was.

I still sub to the game, and I agree it's broken or flawed in many ways. Basic combat, crafting, how worldspace was handled, and very much so player progression could have all been handled in better ways than they were while preserving the ides of a simpler interface for players. The problems that exist in the game aren't singularly the issue though.

How people choose to address those problems is also a contributing issue. By all means file a complaint and ask that things be done to make the game better, but don't sit there and whine that you were duped into buying the game and launch a tirade campaign burning effigies and praying and ranting that it shall die. You aren't helping at all when you do that, you are just acting insane.

Originally posted by Jason2444

Originally posted by rdrpappy

If you bought pong and didn't like it, it's your fault, that's the point. Stop playing rpg's if you want fps pvp.

I'm pretty sure the demands and features of an MMO a LITTLE more intrecate than table tennis.

Originally posted by Thillian

I would not call SWTOR too much of an RPG either. Watching a movie is not Roleplaying. Spending 33% of the time in a cut-scene or dialogue does not make it more RolePlaying. Reading a book is not Roleplaying. In SWTOR, the "roleplaying" is as passive as it can be in a video game. Being you, I wouldn't make much fun of those that wish to play an open world MMORPG, since that is actually much more "roleplaying" that you'll ever get by watching a 3 minute cut-scene.

 Thank you for pointing this out. 

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Kind of expounding on the "Fourth Pillar", I cant help but point out the real line between happy subscribers and unhappy unsubscribers is play style.

I've said it before, big title mmorpg's brought many new players into the fold, gone are the days of the close knit, die hard "yes M'lady" crowd from rpg games like EQ.

The reoccuring theme with the bulk of unhappy ex players is the way they typically play the game, (a quick caviot) I don't mean every single person fits this mold so use common sense at will.

You hear it time and again, people play a little of the starter worlds quests,  they pee vee pee non stop,  the planet quests turn grey, they jam through the personal story and hit 50 in a week or two.

The same people will tell you how much they hate the planets and the linear quests and so on, open world pvp is all that matters ect. even though most of them haven't seen anymore of the individual worlds outside of the flight paths to the class quests they jammed through.

It's the way I and many others played Warcraft, rip through the levels, get to endgame so you can farm gear in the arena or raids, and then quit because you are bored.

I am utterly content to play my character, fly to a planet and entrench myself in the content, levels happen with a story unfolding from talking, living beings in the worlds.

Sorry if this rpg game didn't meet your fps style, contrary to the silly and typical sky is falling crowd here, the game is still in existence and after a few months now, developement is ongoing to make it better.

Well better if you like role playing games anyway.

 

Except this game is horrible for the rpg gamer 

I want to choose my characters path, not have it chosen for me

Originally posted by darkehawke

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Kind of expounding on the "Fourth Pillar", I cant help but point out the real line between happy subscribers and unhappy unsubscribers is play style.

I've said it before, big title mmorpg's brought many new players into the fold, gone are the days of the close knit, die hard "yes M'lady" crowd from rpg games like EQ.

The reoccuring theme with the bulk of unhappy ex players is the way they typically play the game, (a quick caviot) I don't mean every single person fits this mold so use common sense at will.

You hear it time and again, people play a little of the starter worlds quests,  they pee vee pee non stop,  the planet quests turn grey, they jam through the personal story and hit 50 in a week or two.

The same people will tell you how much they hate the planets and the linear quests and so on, open world pvp is all that matters ect. even though most of them haven't seen anymore of the individual worlds outside of the flight paths to the class quests they jammed through.

It's the way I and many others played Warcraft, rip through the levels, get to endgame so you can farm gear in the arena or raids, and then quit because you are bored.

I am utterly content to play my character, fly to a planet and entrench myself in the content, levels happen with a story unfolding from talking, living beings in the worlds.

Sorry if this rpg game didn't meet your fps style, contrary to the silly and typical sky is falling crowd here, the game is still in existence and after a few months now, developement is ongoing to make it better.

Well better if you like role playing games anyway.

 

Except this game is horrible for the rpg gamer 

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Kind of expounding on the "Fourth Pillar", I cant help but point out the real line between happy subscribers and unhappy unsubscribers is play style.

I've said it before, big title mmorpg's brought many new players into the fold, gone are the days of the close knit, die hard "yes M'lady" crowd from rpg games like EQ.

The reoccuring theme with the bulk of unhappy ex players is the way they typically play the game, (a quick caviot) I don't mean every single person fits this mold so use common sense at will.

You hear it time and again, people play a little of the starter worlds quests,  they pee vee pee non stop,  the planet quests turn grey, they jam through the personal story and hit 50 in a week or two.

The same people will tell you how much they hate the planets and the linear quests and so on, open world pvp is all that matters ect. even though most of them haven't seen anymore of the individual worlds outside of the flight paths to the class quests they jammed through.

It's the way I and many others played Warcraft, rip through the levels, get to endgame so you can farm gear in the arena or raids, and then quit because you are bored.

I am utterly content to play my character, fly to a planet and entrench myself in the content, levels happen with a story unfolding from talking, living beings in the worlds.

Sorry if this rpg game didn't meet your fps style, contrary to the silly and typical sky is falling crowd here, the game is still in existence and after a few months now, developement is ongoing to make it better.

Well better if you like role playing games anyway.

 

Well, I got to level 50 in SW:TOR in about a month even though I completed every quest and listened to every cutscene. I agree though that a lot of players need to stop racing to the endgame a month after launch and then crying because they can't do anything else due to a lack of content or a lack of players at that level, but what little there is to do at the level cap at launch should actually function.

Even when you take out of the equation lots of poor ideas seen in the game in general, the problem I have with SW:TOR is that what is there at endgame doesn't work properly at all, and I can't overlook that given the amount of time the dev team spent working on this game.  Illum is a total mess and operations are extremely buggy.  Raid-ready gear comes easier from PvP, so hardmode flashpoints aren't really worth doing all that much.  Even if you did a HM flashpoint, you only get any loot off the final boss of the instance, meaning several times you're wasting two hours of your day for next to nothing.

Originally posted by Deivos

Faults and problems should certainly be addressed, but every person who believes the game isn't what they were lead to believe it is has very blatantly not done any due diligence on what the game was beforehand and suffered for it because they let the notions of what the game should have been cloud the reality of what it was.

 

I still sub to the game, and I agree it's broken or flawed in many ways. Basic combat, crafting, how worldspace was handled, and very much so player progression could have all been handled in better ways than they were while preserving the ides of a simpler interface for players. The problems that exist in the game aren't singularly the issue though.

 

How people choose to address those problems is also a contributing issue. By all means file a complaint and ask that things be done to make the game better, but don't sit there and whine that you were duped into buying the game and launch a tirade campaign burning effigies and praying and ranting that it shall die. You aren't helping at all when you do that, you are just acting insane.

I'll have to apologize up front, because I don't give developers any leeway for giving me excuses, even if from the beginning, for why they're designing a game targeted toward mediocrity. We all know what it was before it released, I don't think anyone's arguing that or the fact that it's had an impact on the manner in which people have critiqued this title. I certainly didn't like what I saw before I played the game, and I generally understood what was going to cause me grief before I even purchased the product, thanks. That being said, I hold them accountable for the faults of the game, despite what information I was given before release; it doesn't give them a free ride just because they told us certain aspects of the game would be shit from the get-go.

None of that matters though, because if people belong to a gaming community such as MMORPG.com, built around the principal of sharing ideas and opinions in a public fourm, you better believe that they're going to do it. None of us are trying to change anything, this is just a discussion. We're aware of the proper channels to file official complaints.

In a way the OP is correct but only because players have more options now. 

It's also not the players fault that if they don't like certain aspects, they have other venues to persue instead of sticking with something because they have to.

Bullshit. Bioware went wrong by putting all their focus on the VO content and then half assing everything else. Then they compounded the problem by shoving everyone into rabbit holes so even if the server the player was on was full to bursting you would still only see a few orther players. Plus they gave players companions with a stupid little "The Sims" friendship minigame to even further the players disconnect with interacting with other players. AND THEN on top of everything else, made leveling xp so easy that players could easily skip ALL of the actual group related content without much if any penalty.

If a company makes a solo-centric game and then markets it as a full fleged MMORPG, they are at fault. Bioware did this on numerous occations with SWTOR. And if a developer botches a major game feature so badly (and then botches it even further with moronic patch mistakes) it has to be removed after launch, (in this case Ilum) then again it is the developer that is to blame.

You might be happy paying a monthly fee for what is in reality nothing more than a single player game with some co-op play. Other people aren't. So don't blame THEM for getting angry when instead of the chocolate icecream the company promised them, they were given balls of shit to eat instead.

Originally posted by Alders

In a way the OP is correct but only because players have more options now. 

It's also not the players fault that if they don't like certain aspects, they have other venues to persue instead of sticking with something because they have to.

We'd have had more of an option if swg wasn't forced to shutdown so that there would be only one star wars mmo!

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

 

None of that matters though, because if people belong to a gaming community such as MMORPG.com, built around the principal of sharing ideas and opinions in a public fourm, you better believe that they're going to do it. None of us are trying to change anything, this is just a discussion. We're aware of the proper channels to file official complaints.

Several dozen members if not more have already stated or thought the same thing

"if it wasnt branded with the Star Wars label, you wouldnt be playing or defending it"

ToR is a piece of crap, sure, not all of it is bad crap, but because most of it is, its considered...crap (my opinion of course, but it's an opinion many others agree with)

Here's the nitty gritty for you.

IF BW created ToR back when Blizzard was just launching WoW, hands down, that game would have been beat.  I'm not talking about content vs content, Im talking about what the games had at it's start.  However, with all the changes throughout the years that both Blizzard and the player community have added to WoW, BW looks as if they put blinders on and decided to not even look at the things that had happened since them.  Im not compairing "content"  Im not comparing, dungeon to dungeon or how much each have now vs then, im talkin about the little things that we've fought for for so very long to have gained and what ToR decided to just ignore.

Trion did this the best I feel.  They took WoW now and tried to reinvent it by adding their own flair, taking from other games what they had and putting it all together.  Why didn't BW do that?  Why couldnt they give us, at launch, the ability to move our UI around, why couldnt they have macro's in place, why couldn't they have target of target already added, why didn't they invest more of that 300million they spent on some of the things that makes our playtime easier, instead we get really great voice overs that after playing through once or twice (minus the storyline) you mash your spacebutton through.

BW failed, they are trying to fix that part, i wish them well...i really do, but till they get those blinkers off, I'll gladly pay for and play Rift

Originally posted by rdrpappy

If you bought pong and didn't like it, it's your fault, that's the point. Stop playing rpg's if you want fps pvp.

another great quotable of today on mmorpg.com

Unfortunately gone are those days and very soon we will be paying for FPS games in the near future while websites label them as  "mmorpgs".

They try sneaky tricks by guising as a "B2P" game, then charging for DLCs in a timely fashion that equals the same as a sub PLUS they throw in an item shop.

Where did the genre go wrong? Whose to blame? THe devs? The players for instigating it? or the website forums for adding these lobby games into the "mmorpg" library and expose it to the masses?

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

I'll have to apologize up front, because I don't give developers any leeway for giving me excuses, even if from the beginning, for why they're designing a game targeted toward mediocrity. We all know what it was before it released, I don't think anyone's arguing that or the fact that it's had an impact on the manner in which people have critiqued this title. I certainly didn't like what I saw before I played the game, and I generally understood what was going to cause me grief before I even purchased the product, thanks. That being said, I hold them accountable for the faults of the game, despite what information I was given before release; it doesn't give them a free ride just because they told us certain aspects of the game would be shit from the get-go.

 

None of that matters though, because if people belong to a gaming community such as MMORPG.com, built around the principal of sharing ideas and opinions in a public fourm, you better believe that they're going to do it. None of us are trying to change anything, this is just a discussion. We're aware of the proper channels to file official complaints.

Not the issue, but feel free to expound on it. We're in agreement that regardless of prior knowledge that the game was gonna be this bad means Bioware isn't free to keep the game in a bad state.

However I very much disagree with the conversational aspect. It's the same problem I have in any other place. When people are conversing there is a line that must be understood between opinion and fact, and all to often people keep crossing that line.

Saying they don't like the game for X reasons and that they are leaving? Fine.

Saying they were lied to about the game when they were not? Not fine.

When people reduce themselves to lies to defend their cause, regardless of if it's an official petition or just a conversation, it does no party any favors. It just reduces everyone to a mindlessly raving mob with zero productivity even for something as simple as chit-chat.

Lets take a look at what players SWTOR is not for since it is not the "game".  Of couse I am making sweeping generalities here.

• not for achievers(everything is easy),
• not for explorers(game world is small and really has nothing in it is worth exploring that you will not see anyway following the scripted story)
• not for killers(pvp is terrible)
• not for roleplayers or socializers as you will find almost no players in the game world to interact with outside of fleet. 

So if you do not fall into any of these this game may be for you.  Ohh if you like to group while leveling this game is also not for you, sorry but the main selling point of the game the "story" is single player only.

Originally posted by Votan

Lets take a look at what players SWTOR is not for since it is not the "game".  Of couse I am making sweeping generalities here.

  

• not for achievers(everything is easy),
• not for explorers(game world is small and really has nothing in it is worth exploring that you will not see anyway following the scripted story),
• not for killers(pvp is terrible)
• not for roleplayers or socializers as you will find almost no players in the game world to interact with outside of fleet.  So if you do not fall into any of these this game may is may be for you.  

 

Ohh if you like to group while leveling this game is also not for you, sorry but the main selling point of the game the "story" is single player only.

I would disagree on the explorers part, simply because of the holocron / datacrons they have hidden around the world. That is actually one of the more interesting parts in the game, imho. Everything else, you're more or less right about.

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Kind of expounding on the "Fourth Pillar", I cant help but point out the real line between happy subscribers and unhappy unsubscribers is play style.

I've said it before, big title mmorpg's brought many new players into the fold, gone are the days of the close knit, die hard "yes M'lady" crowd from rpg games like EQ.

The reoccuring theme with the bulk of unhappy ex players is the way they typically play the game, (a quick caviot) I don't mean every single person fits this mold so use common sense at will.

You hear it time and again, people play a little of the starter worlds quests,  they pee vee pee non stop,  the planet quests turn grey, they jam through the personal story and hit 50 in a week or two.

The same people will tell you how much they hate the planets and the linear quests and so on, open world pvp is all that matters ect. even though most of them haven't seen anymore of the individual worlds outside of the flight paths to the class quests they jammed through.

It's the way I and many others played Warcraft, rip through the levels, get to endgame so you can farm gear in the arena or raids, and then quit because you are bored.

I am utterly content to play my character, fly to a planet and entrench myself in the content, levels happen with a story unfolding from talking, living beings in the worlds.

Sorry if this rpg game didn't meet your fps style, contrary to the silly and typical sky is falling crowd here, the game is still in existence and after a few months now, developement is ongoing to make it better.

Well better if you like role playing games anyway.

 

Sorry but [Mod Edit] i have 2 lvl 50 took my time in both pve/pvp game is utter boredom in both ,   i wanted this game to be successful but it isnt IMHO.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Votan

Lets take a look at what players SWTOR is not for since it is not the "game".  Of couse I am making sweeping generalities here.

  

• not for achievers(everything is easy),
• not for explorers(game world is small and really has nothing in it is worth exploring that you will not see anyway following the scripted story),
• not for killers(pvp is terrible)
• not for roleplayers or socializers as you will find almost no players in the game world to interact with outside of fleet.  So if you do not fall into any of these this game may is may be for you.  

 

Ohh if you like to group while leveling this game is also not for you, sorry but the main selling point of the game the "story" is single player only.

I would disagree on the explorers part, simply because of the holocron / datacrons they have hidden around the world. That is actually one of the more interesting parts in the game, imho. Everything else, you're more or less right about.

I meant exploring the game world just to see it, what is around the next bend, smell the flowers so to say. I was beta testing another game and world is extremely diverse and interesting, you wanted to explore the world just to see what was over the next hill or around the next bend, I never felt that in SWTOR. While finding the datacrons can be somewhat entertaining the game world in which they are in is not that interesting.