Originally posted by trash656

Originally posted by Zarynterk

I aint mad at ya homie... The game is a 5 out of 10 at best... the instancing is ridiculous and the PVP is a complete joke. They would have been better served just giving us an updated version of SWG lol, me thinks people would be much, much happier.

thanks my friend, and yes I agree with you. SWG PRE NGE was the best MMO I had ever played.

 Agree 100%

I think the biggest thing is: SWOTR is like a book. A good book, no doubt- its from Bioware. But a book nonetheless. When you finish reading a book, you put it down. This wouldve made an awesome singleRPG. Story fits in great there. MMOs are more about social interaction. You dont socially intereact with a book. Story is important yes, but you cant leave behind the rest of what makes an MMO in the dust (such as pvp/world events/guilds/exploration). You dont pay subs for a book, you buy it once.  I just dont feel this game is worth subs.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by Gajari

It's funny: All the buildup of the voice over and story and it's not even all that great, and they clearly put gameplay as second on their priority list. Future MMO developers: Nail down some solid gameplay mechanics and progression ideas first and foremost. Story is important, but people spend far less time talking to NPC's than being out in the world killing stuff or whatever.

They really should have kept voice overs to the personal story and instances/warzones and not have every single quest have it. It really kills the excitement of it rather than giving you something to look forward to during big scenes. And as the OP said, they ended up rehashing a lot of responses. I don't need a huge, drawn out reason for killing a few enemies.

"Please, help me, a GIANT WOMPRAT is eating my wife alive. You have to save her!"

Jedi Respone: "You need to remain calm, emotions aren't helping, now start again from the beginning."

"*sigh* Over in the field, a GIANT WOMPRAT.... WIFE... EATING ALIVE!"

Jedi Response: "I'm on my way, this is what I've trained for."

"Hurry please. Thank you."

End Result...

"So, did you save my wife?"

Jedi Response: "I'm sorry, your wife was eaten alive. I did everything I could."

"Oh no... poor wife. Here's some credits, it's the least I could do."

Jedi Response: "No reward is necessary, but thanks."

 

... I got carried away. I should be a writer for BioWare.

 

But consider the alternative that's seen in other MMO's.

"Hello, traveler, please help me, could you kill those 10 rats for me because - "

-- ignore textwall, click ok to accept quest task --

Or what was before text quests and exclamation marks to level via quests

"hey friend, let's get some xp and level. What shall we do?"

- "Let's grind mobs for some hours."

I mean, skipping quest text and do the simple quest tasks or grinding mobs wasn't that much more entertaining either all those years, in fact it was only fun because it was still new. I prefer story heavy quests a la AOC/SWTOR/TSW/GW2's Personal Story above mob grinding or text based quests that went before it.

 

I would rather have that and the remaining 198m of the budget put towards making the MMO part the best it could be (regardless of themepark/sandbox)

Originally posted by Zaltark

I think the biggest thing is: SWOTR is like a book. A good book, no doubt- its from Bioware. But a book nonetheless. When you finish reading a book, you put it down. This wouldve made an awesome singleRPG. Story fits in great there. MMOs are more about social interaction. You dont socially intereact with a book. Story is important yes, but you can leave behind the rest of what makes an MMO in the dust (such as pvp/world events/guilds/exploration). You dont pay subs for a book, you buy it once. I just dont feel this game is worth subs.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Soopaman

Originally posted by trash656

Originally posted by Zarynterk

I aint mad at ya homie... The game is a 5 out of 10 at best... the instancing is ridiculous and the PVP is a complete joke. They would have been better served just giving us an updated version of SWG lol, me thinks people would be much, much happier.

thanks my friend, and yes I agree with you. SWG PRE NGE was the best MMO I had ever played.

If SWG was such a great game prior to pre NGE. Why did the game fail so badly. Its not like SWG was a great game. It had lots of problems that needed to be fixed. You cant compare the 2 because they are not the same.

 

It didn't help really that SOE dropped wow in space onto an unsuspecting sandbox crowd whilst chasing WoW like numbers, thus going from 250k to 50k very fast, as the original players left but the WoW crowd carried on enjoying WoW and didn't switch to NGE.

If SWG was doing well they would have never considered the NGE in the first place.

Lets be honest. SWG was doomed do to failure and this is because SOE never fixed the problems prior to CU and NGE. I personally enjoyed SWG up too CU. But not once had SOE tried to address the problems with SWG. Personally SWG had the best crafting system of any game I have played. But thats was about it.

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by Gajari

It's funny: All the buildup of the voice over and story and it's not even all that great, and they clearly put gameplay as second on their priority list. Future MMO developers: Nail down some solid gameplay mechanics and progression ideas first and foremost. Story is important, but people spend far less time talking to NPC's than being out in the world killing stuff or whatever.

They really should have kept voice overs to the personal story and instances/warzones and not have every single quest have it. It really kills the excitement of it rather than giving you something to look forward to during big scenes. And as the OP said, they ended up rehashing a lot of responses. I don't need a huge, drawn out reason for killing a few enemies.

"Please, help me, a GIANT WOMPRAT is eating my wife alive. You have to save her!"

Jedi Respone: "You need to remain calm, emotions aren't helping, now start again from the beginning."

"*sigh* Over in the field, a GIANT WOMPRAT.... WIFE... EATING ALIVE!"

Jedi Response: "I'm on my way, this is what I've trained for."

"Hurry please. Thank you."

End Result...

"So, did you save my wife?"

Jedi Response: "I'm sorry, your wife was eaten alive. I did everything I could."

"Oh no... poor wife. Here's some credits, it's the least I could do."

Jedi Response: "No reward is necessary, but thanks."

 

... I got carried away. I should be a writer for BioWare.

 

But consider the alternative that's seen in other MMO's.

"Hello, traveler, please help me, could you kill those 10 rats for me because - "

-- ignore textwall, click ok to accept quest task --

Or what was before text quests and exclamation marks to level via quests

"hey friend, let's get some xp and level. What shall we do?"

- "Let's grind mobs for some hours."

I mean, skipping quest text and do the simple quest tasks or grinding mobs wasn't that much more entertaining either all those years, in fact it was only fun because it was still new. I prefer story heavy quests a la AOC/SWTOR/TSW/GW2's Personal Story above mob grinding or text based quests that went before it.

 

I would rather have that and the remaining 198m of the budget put towards making the MMO part the best it could be (regardless of themepark/sandbox)

 

Eh, leveling IS part of the gameplay. If that's boring and not fun, that's the first 125-200 hours you're in a game, if that's not important you might as well have everybody start at level cap and skip the whole leveling idea. Kinda like shooters where you can jump into multiplay right away.

story/context infused quests (cutscene/dialogue/etc) > textwall quests > mob grinding (imo)

Originally posted by Soopaman

Originally posted by ktanner3

 

If SWG was doing well they would have never considered the NGE in the first place.

Lets be honest. SWG was doomed do to failure and this is because SOE never fixed the problems prior to CU and NGE. I personally enjoyed SWG up too CU. But not once had SOE tried to address the problems with SWG. Personally SWG has to best crafting system of any game I have played. But thats was about it.

My experience would have been better had I went crafter,dancer or one of those professions. They obviously got that part of it right. However, for those of us looking for more than being the best crafter or dancer in the galaxy the game was not up to snuff. Certainly not worth a sub fee when so many things are broken and unplayable.

"I am devoting my time and money in voting for Heejun Han in American Idol. I will also scour the interwebs for information about him and gathering more people to join the Heejun Han Fanclub.  Please vote for him and tell other people to vote for him *directed at you, the person who is reading this*"

Thats what I wrote when I cancelled my sub a few minutes ago.

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

I don't want to have to play a poor SPRPG in order to get to a husk of an MMO.

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by Gajari

It's funny: All the buildup of the voice over and story and it's not even all that great, and they clearly put gameplay as second on their priority list. Future MMO developers: Nail down some solid gameplay mechanics and progression ideas first and foremost. Story is important, but people spend far less time talking to NPC's than being out in the world killing stuff or whatever.

They really should have kept voice overs to the personal story and instances/warzones and not have every single quest have it. It really kills the excitement of it rather than giving you something to look forward to during big scenes. And as the OP said, they ended up rehashing a lot of responses. I don't need a huge, drawn out reason for killing a few enemies.

"Please, help me, a GIANT WOMPRAT is eating my wife alive. You have to save her!"

Jedi Respone: "You need to remain calm, emotions aren't helping, now start again from the beginning."

"*sigh* Over in the field, a GIANT WOMPRAT.... WIFE... EATING ALIVE!"

Jedi Response: "I'm on my way, this is what I've trained for."

"Hurry please. Thank you."

End Result...

"So, did you save my wife?"

Jedi Response: "I'm sorry, your wife was eaten alive. I did everything I could."

"Oh no... poor wife. Here's some credits, it's the least I could do."

Jedi Response: "No reward is necessary, but thanks."

 

... I got carried away. I should be a writer for BioWare.

 

But consider the alternative that's seen in other MMO's.

 

"Hello, traveler, please help me, could you kill those 10 rats for me because - "

 

-- ignore textwall, click ok to accept quest task --

 

Or what was before text quests and exclamation marks to level via quests

 

"hey friend, let's get some xp and level. What shall we do?"

 

- "Let's grind mobs for some hours."

 

I mean, skipping quest text and do the simple quest tasks or grinding mobs wasn't that much more entertaining either all those years, in fact it was only fun because it was still new. I prefer story heavy quests a la AOC/SWTOR/TSW/GW2's Personal Story above mob grinding or text based quests that went before it.

 

I would rather have that and the remaining 198m of the budget put towards making the MMO part the best it could be (regardless of themepark/sandbox)

 

Eh, leveling IS part of the gameplay. If that's boring and not fun, that's the first 125-200 hours you're in a game, if that's not important you might as well have everybody start at level cap and skip the whole leveling idea. Kinda like shooters where you can jump into multiplay right away.

 

story/context infused quests (cutscene/dialogue/etc) > textwall quests > mob grinding (imo)

There's nothing overly different in your generic quests out in the world after a while anyway. Aside from story quests, I was skipping through  most of the quests to get to the point by about level 20 if not sooner. A lot of people end up doing this. I'm playing WoW again at the moment, and I get more excitement from watching their little in-game cutscenes and events than I did from SWTOR's story system. The one exception is on the Esseles or Black Talon flash points the first couple times I ran them - those were fun as hell and me and the rest of the group always laughed our asses off at the responses each other had.

That quickly faded however. :(

     Games like SWTOR always scare me...The high intial price tag and the insane hype are almost always going to be a huge letdown at some point......The OP also made a reference to Rift saying they at least brought something to the table.....Well I have to disagree....If you had played Warhammer (which is where alot of the RIft devs came from) you would realize they basically took the public quests, gave them a slightly different look, and renamed them as Rifts....It was nothing new.

Originally posted by Theocritus

     Games like SWTOR always scare me...The high intial price tag and the insane hype are almost always going to be a huge letdown at some point......The OP also made a reference to Rift saying they at least brought something to the table.....Well I have to disagree....If you had played Warhammer (which is where alot of the RIft devs came from) you would realize they basically took the public quests, gave them a slightly different look, and renamed them as Rifts....It was nothing new.

Rift was more of a letdown to me since I figured SWTOR would suck. Im still playing SWTOR, and uninstalled Rift.

In the begining I said, RIFT took all the good and got rid of all the bad....then I just said, this is a preaty WOW with PQs, then the population died.

Now it is basicly free, which tells me the pop is still dead. Except for the few "L33T" guilds that server hop to get world firsts.

Originally posted by Gajari

There's nothing overly different in your generic quests out in the world after a while anyway. Aside from story quests, I was skipping through  most of the quests to get to the point by about level 20 if not sooner. A lot of people end up doing this. I'm playing WoW again at the moment, and I get more excitement from watching their little in-game cutscenes and events than I did from SWTOR's story system. The one exception is on the Esseles or Black Talon flash points the first couple times I ran them - those were fun as hell and me and the rest of the group always laughed our asses off at the responses each other had.

That quickly faded however. :(

Originally posted by Four0Six

Originally posted by Theocritus

     Games like SWTOR always scare me...The high intial price tag and the insane hype are almost always going to be a huge letdown at some point......The OP also made a reference to Rift saying they at least brought something to the table.....Well I have to disagree....If you had played Warhammer (which is where alot of the RIft devs came from) you would realize they basically took the public quests, gave them a slightly different look, and renamed them as Rifts....It was nothing new.

Rift was more of a letdown to me since I figured SWTOR would suck. Im still playing SWTOR, and uninstalled Rift.

In the begining I said, RIFT took all the good and got rid of all the bad....then I just said, this is a preaty WOW with PQs, then the population died.

Now it is basicly free, which tells me the pop is still dead. Except for the few "L33T" guilds that server hop to get world firsts.

Rift has its good and bad points. It seems that ppl are looking for a one size fit all MMO. Personally I dont think one size fit all MMO will ever exist.

OP, I agree the game is bad but calling it a WoW clone is crazy.

You cant call a game a clone of another when it only has a few aesthetics from and when those asthetics arent even orginally from that game. WoW introduced very FEW things to the MMORPG world....TOR is closer to Guild Wars just for being instanced than it is to WoW.

TOR is not fail because its a clone of any game, TOR is fail because a decent sized portion of the beta test group shot down anyone and everyone that tried to speak about what the game was missing completely, lacking in or was doing poorly. CONSUMERS need to start working together during betas to get the COMPANY to provide the SERVICE we are expected to pay for.

No more excuses, either be part of the solution and force companies to stop making mediocre games....or shut it because you are THE problem.

No company will make a product they think consumers dont want...use your voices and stop thinking you dont have any power and for gods sake stop trolling topics with people wanting to improve a game and support them or dont post at all.

Originally posted by Soopaman

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Soopaman

Originally posted by trash656

Originally posted by Zarynterk

I aint mad at ya homie... The game is a 5 out of 10 at best... the instancing is ridiculous and the PVP is a complete joke. They would have been better served just giving us an updated version of SWG lol, me thinks people would be much, much happier.

thanks my friend, and yes I agree with you. SWG PRE NGE was the best MMO I had ever played.

If SWG was such a great game prior to pre NGE. Why did the game fail so badly. Its not like SWG was a great game. It had lots of problems that needed to be fixed. You cant compare the 2 because they are not the same.

 

It didn't help really that SOE dropped wow in space onto an unsuspecting sandbox crowd whilst chasing WoW like numbers, thus going from 250k to 50k very fast, as the original players left but the WoW crowd carried on enjoying WoW and didn't switch to NGE.

If SWG was doing well they would have never considered the NGE in the first place.

Lets be honest. SWG was doomed do to failure and this is because SOE never fixed the problems prior to CU and NGE. I personally enjoyed SWG up too CU. But not once had SOE tried to address the problems with SWG. Personally SWG had the best crafting system of any game I have played. But thats was about it.

 

Actually SWG was doomed because it was released almost 12 months early, had ZERO content and didnt have any vehicles/mounts to get around the huge worlds. 

Oh and for $10  guess who was the boss of that game too ;)

Originally posted by Soopaman

Rift has its good and bad points. It seems that ppl are looking for a one size fit all MMO. Personally I dont think one size fit all MMO will ever exist.

Depends on what your size is.

Asherons Call fit my idea of perfect MMORPG. Fast action oriented, little bit better than good crafting, a skill system that you could ROYALLY screw up and gimp your character with actually allowing you to ROLEPLAY a disfunctional character...I mean come on...I made a spear weilding war mage with no melee defense or healing abilities just for shits and giggles...it had a basic well functioning guild system, housing that could be decorated with trophies won in the field...a magic system that to this day is still the best in the history of MMORPGs. combat with more options than most MMORPGs, being able to not only swing high/medium/low but with various damage types that actually must be changed according to what you are fighting. Swing, slash, bludgeon, stab with elemental damages, fire, frost, acid, lightning.

Facing a normal golem your best bet is bludgeon or acid and to swing low at the legs.

Facing a Tusker...fire or stab/slash and swing high.

Every single mob in the game had 2-3 damage types they were very weak against and some strong defense against plus a weakness to a postion of their body.

The magic system was insane, 4 types, war, life, creature and item....creature magic alone had over...350 spells. Yes, over 350 spells in that ONE type of magic. insane.

PvP was pure insanity with the best players dueling for over 20 MINUTES before someone going down.

Crafting covered everything, alchemy, fletching, cooking and tinkering (weapons/armor/items all in one), if you couldnt make it, you could improve it via tinkering from changing the color of an item to improving the items stats.

You will never see another Asherons Call, thanks to whiney crybaby players that ruined their characters via open choice skills to create the type of character YOU wanted...the consumers drive the market and the market is overrun with idiots that dont want to think...they outnumber the smart ones greatly.

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by Gajari

There's nothing overly different in your generic quests out in the world after a while anyway. Aside from story quests, I was skipping through  most of the quests to get to the point by about level 20 if not sooner. A lot of people end up doing this. I'm playing WoW again at the moment, and I get more excitement from watching their little in-game cutscenes and events than I did from SWTOR's story system. The one exception is on the Esseles or Black Talon flash points the first couple times I ran them - those were fun as hell and me and the rest of the group always laughed our asses off at the responses each other had.

That quickly faded however. :(

 

That might apply to you, but I've heard enough people also state that they clicked away quests in other MMO's but liked the questing in SWTOR. In the same way people loved the questing in AoC in Tortage and hated it when it changed into the usual questing stuff after you left the island. I'm sure that there are enough people who clicked SWTOR quests away, but those were people who were clicking away quests in other MMO's anyway already. Some people just want the fetch or kill task and to reach level cap as soon as possible.

 

Not that I think that all quests in SWTOR are so magnificent or brilliant, far from. But as a leveling mechanic, story infused (cutscene/dialogue choices) quests beat textwall quests and mob grinding, imo of course. But I'm looking forward to them in TSW and GW2's Personal Story as well, just as I liked them in AoC's Destiny Quests and SWTOR's class quests.

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to enjoy the hell out of GW2's personal story! Even though news coming in from the beta are saying they're probably the weakest part. I honestly am liking GW2's questing system... get away from the exclamation point over NPC heads and having to accept quests - just have it all unfold in front of you while you're actively doing something.  That's the stuff!

In SWTOR, I think they should have cut out half the quests they put into the game, and just have an awesome story quest chain for each area to really get you involved, with side quests popping up like is happening already as you travel around. Focusing on a major story event for each planet that spans a long chain would have made the questing more engaging and fun rather than throwing a bunch of random stuff at us from a bunch of different NPC's.

But yeah, this is just my opinion, as well.

Originally posted by Gajari

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by Gajari

There's nothing overly different in your generic quests out in the world after a while anyway. Aside from story quests, I was skipping through  most of the quests to get to the point by about level 20 if not sooner. A lot of people end up doing this. I'm playing WoW again at the moment, and I get more excitement from watching their little in-game cutscenes and events than I did from SWTOR's story system. The one exception is on the Esseles or Black Talon flash points the first couple times I ran them - those were fun as hell and me and the rest of the group always laughed our asses off at the responses each other had.

That quickly faded however. :(

 

That might apply to you, but I've heard enough people also state that they clicked away quests in other MMO's but liked the questing in SWTOR. In the same way people loved the questing in AoC in Tortage and hated it when it changed into the usual questing stuff after you left the island. I'm sure that there are enough people who clicked SWTOR quests away, but those were people who were clicking away quests in other MMO's anyway already. Some people just want the fetch or kill task and to reach level cap as soon as possible.

 

Not that I think that all quests in SWTOR are so magnificent or brilliant, far from. But as a leveling mechanic, story infused (cutscene/dialogue choices) quests beat textwall quests and mob grinding, imo of course. But I'm looking forward to them in TSW and GW2's Personal Story as well, just as I liked them in AoC's Destiny Quests and SWTOR's class quests.

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to enjoy the hell out of GW2's personal story! Even though news coming in from the beta are saying they're probably the weakest part. I honestly am liking GW2's questing system... get away from the exclamation point over NPC heads and having to accept quests - just have it all unfold in front of you while you're actively doing something.  That's the stuff!

In SWTOR, I think they should have cut out half the quests they put into the game, and just have an awesome story quest chain for each area to really get you involved, with side quests popping up like is happening already as you travel around. Focusing on a major story event for each planet that spans a long chain would have made the questing more engaging and fun rather than throwing a bunch of random stuff at us from a bunch of different NPC's.

But yeah, this is just my opinion, as well.

Yes, but it's an interesting one. So you would prefer to have the quests sprung on you as opposed to knowing where they are in advance. I could see how that would be appealing.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Gajari

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by Gajari

There's nothing overly different in your generic quests out in the world after a while anyway. Aside from story quests, I was skipping through  most of the quests to get to the point by about level 20 if not sooner. A lot of people end up doing this. I'm playing WoW again at the moment, and I get more excitement from watching their little in-game cutscenes and events than I did from SWTOR's story system. The one exception is on the Esseles or Black Talon flash points the first couple times I ran them - those were fun as hell and me and the rest of the group always laughed our asses off at the responses each other had.

That quickly faded however. :(

 

That might apply to you, but I've heard enough people also state that they clicked away quests in other MMO's but liked the questing in SWTOR. In the same way people loved the questing in AoC in Tortage and hated it when it changed into the usual questing stuff after you left the island. I'm sure that there are enough people who clicked SWTOR quests away, but those were people who were clicking away quests in other MMO's anyway already. Some people just want the fetch or kill task and to reach level cap as soon as possible.

 

Not that I think that all quests in SWTOR are so magnificent or brilliant, far from. But as a leveling mechanic, story infused (cutscene/dialogue choices) quests beat textwall quests and mob grinding, imo of course. But I'm looking forward to them in TSW and GW2's Personal Story as well, just as I liked them in AoC's Destiny Quests and SWTOR's class quests.

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to enjoy the hell out of GW2's personal story! Even though news coming in from the beta are saying they're probably the weakest part. I honestly am liking GW2's questing system... get away from the exclamation point over NPC heads and having to accept quests - just have it all unfold in front of you while you're actively doing something.  That's the stuff!

In SWTOR, I think they should have cut out half the quests they put into the game, and just have an awesome story quest chain for each area to really get you involved, with side quests popping up like is happening already as you travel around. Focusing on a major story event for each planet that spans a long chain would have made the questing more engaging and fun rather than throwing a bunch of random stuff at us from a bunch of different NPC's.

But yeah, this is just my opinion, as well.

Yes, but it's an interesting one. So you would prefer to have the quests sprung on you as opposed to knowing where they are in advance. I could see how that would be appealing.

Yup. I also think the side quests that pop up should have some basic ones that always happen, but in order to encourage people to think outside of the box in regards to what is happening, there should be things going on that if you do things a certain way (say with choices, or by finding an item, or something) , possibly explore and find an NPC off the beaten path, whatever, you could find side quests that others might not, or possibly even change the main story quest you're on to something different because of choices or side quest-related stuff, so that it's somewhat dynamic and not quite as linear and people would have something other than light/dark side choices and class change when they roll an alt.

In any case, I find it funny that you're like this amazing hero in games, smart as hell, powerful, yet you can't make your own decisions about what needs to be done in areas. You're always looking to someone else to TELL you what needs to be done.

I say get a basic rundown of the situation in the area, then instead of having a quest tracking thing come up telling you what to do, instead, you add to the quest tracker as you get out there and start exploring and killing and as you continuously find out new things and add to it/accomplish tasks, you will progressively find your way to the ultimate threat of the area that could either just be a quick kill, an instance/group content, whatever. There shouldn't be any NPC's to click on, they should just give you a heads up when you get close in a VO/chat bubble, and that'll add something new to be done (some side quests being optional, but helpful and rewarding if done.)

I very much agree with GW2's idea of not having to group up in  order to be in a group as well. There should be no (or very few) instances in an MMO, just group areas where anyone that enters is basically part of the same event.

I don't know if that all even made sense, I'm tired as hell, but anyway, that's what I'm thinking.

Originally posted by jtcgs

OP, I agree the game is bad but calling it a WoW clone is crazy.

You cant call a game a clone of another when it only has a few aesthetics from and when those asthetics arent even orginally from that game. WoW introduced very FEW things to the MMORPG world....TOR is closer to Guild Wars just for being instanced than it is to WoW.

TOR is not fail because its a clone of any game, TOR is fail because a decent sized portion of the beta test group shot down anyone and everyone that tried to speak about what the game was missing completely, lacking in or was doing poorly. CONSUMERS need to start working together during betas to get the COMPANY to provide the SERVICE we are expected to pay for.

No more excuses, either be part of the solution and force companies to stop making mediocre games....or shut it because you are THE problem.

No company will make a product they think consumers dont want...use your voices and stop thinking you dont have any power and for gods sake stop trolling topics with people wanting to improve a game and support them or dont post at all.

Take the VOs out and tell me what TOR brought that's not in WoW? Any 'game' that states VOs is one of it's core features is not a game near as much as it's a interactive cartoon. In fact I'll go as far to say that TOR is more WoW than WoW. They took from WoW and dumbed them down even further LOL.

We can't lay all this on the baby bata testers ganging up on the adults. EA never had any intentions to give the game any complexity. Beta was nothing more than mild stress testing at best. Tester's inputs were only taken and not read, only there to give an illusion of a customer's concerns have merit.

How priceless will it be to have a phone tap with EA and LA executives trying to figure out where they are going wrong now that the majority of gamers are backing away from this game to end all games as it was thought of before release? My bet is they are so out of touch that they are blaming everything from gas prices to Madanna getting YouTube banned instead of blaming themselves.