Convinience = Pay To Win.  All possible advantages are P2W. At least to some players. If you collect pets and thats your main focus and interest a cash shop that sells pets is P2W. If you want to be the first to be max level a shop that sells xp-potions will be P2W.

If you want fairness and a perfectly level playing field all cash shops are bad. There will always be some players that thinks its P2W. It makes no difference what is sold. There will always be some that complain.

Originally posted by Sythion

Why should you have an advantage over me because you have time to play the unacceptably long amount of hours many of these games require?

Cheater. (not sarcasm).

Time convenience items aren't exclusive to people who have a lack of time to spend on games. How will they help you "catch up", or whatever it is you want to do, if people with more time to spend on the game can use them aswell.

If time convenience items were handed out for free to people who spend less than 7 hours per week on the game for example, I'b be fine with it. Then it would be a way for people who can't spend much time on the game to "catch up" abit, I don't think they should have to pay for it either.

Originally posted by Foncl

Originally posted by Serelisk

Originally posted by Foncl

I completely agree OP, time is what you use to achieve things in games, time convenience items are P2W imo. Developers will keep testing their waters to see what they can get away with until gamers make it known to them that it will hurt their revenue by doing so. I will not support any form of money for power RMT in games and never have, if it becomes the norm then I will stop playing the mainstream games.

 

I'm willing to pay more for a game without a cash shop, where power is earned by time spent in-game.

Then you would never have supported Guild Wars 2 in the first place. The progression is horizontal, the leveling curve is flat, and up/down scaling in power is common place in this game. Without the cash shop.

Then please explain to me your view of why they have a cash shop with items that are not purely cosmetic?

My view: It's there so people can pay to achieve things faster, bypass game mechanics and gain a competitive advantage by spending money.

 

Would the game be worse with only cosmetic items in the cash shop in your opinion? Why?

Its a percieved advantage nothing more. If I was them I would capitalize on this to.

That said I'm with you on the cosmetic/fluff stuff only being in the cash shop. They would save themself alot of hassle by simply removing the "time saving" stuff. On the other hand they would cost themselves alot of sales because people who WANT to be 80 first or people who think it really matters would buy these items.

One last thing. I am only basing my opinion off what Anet has said. NO ONE but Anet really knows how much gear will matter. We can only take thier word for it that it wont matter nearly as much as in other games. I would also remind people Anet has not once said that GEAR WONT MATTER at all.

Originally posted by Sythion

Why should you have an advantage over me because you have time to play the unacceptably long amount of hours many of these games require?

Cheater. (not sarcasm).

Video games particularly mmos, are time sinks, shouldn't be playing if you don't have the time, but apparently arena net is going to cater to you with their upcoming f2p game so have at it my man!  And you're supposed to be playing a game to play the game, really shouldn't matter how much time you have. 

And why should you have an advantage over a poor college kid making 8 bucks an hour and going to school full time so he can't invest the time or pay 2 win, if we're going to use reductio ad absurdum I see your absurdum and raise you one. :)

Only reason people don't want XP boost is because people are greedy and want to be "better". Not sure why it matters to you if someone plays 6 hours a day and "earns" it or plays 2 hours a day and buys an XP potion here and there to level out the fact he can't play all the time. How does this affect you in any way?

I would be against it if this game was a more sandbox style game..but..it's not. Seems like a lot of worrying for absolutely nothing to me. When they start selling weapons, crit runes you can't obtain, then you can worry.

Originally posted by UOvet

Only reason people don't want XP boost is because people are greedy and want to be "better". Not sure why it matters to you if someone plays 6 hours a day and "earns" it or plays 2 hours a day and buys an XP potion here and there to level out the fact he can't play all the time. How does this affect you in any way?

because then they can't feel superior for a brief, shining moment. because when everyone's the same level and they lose, their oponent is cheating or op.

Originally posted by KingGator

What amazes me is that they're going to sell us a 60 dollar box for a free2play, not b2p game and otherwise(one has to assume)reasonable adults are defending them to the hilt. They are PR gurus I need to hire these guys for my company's PR efforts. They have mastered the art of pissing on our backs and telling us its raining and making people believe.

 

I want you to think about it that cash shop was very similar to cash shops in many f2p titles, except those titles have the decency to not hit you for a box at least, and over 1/2 the people in this thread are busy defending them.....balls deep.

Um, ever played a F2P game? Most of them are god awful and not near the quality of Guild Wars 2. There is reason for your box price. Go play a gpotato game in that case.

How are you paying to win through convience items and time savers? I have traversed a great many F2P games and can tell you without a doubt that it isn't P2W. It seems to me that you're trying to forcibly attach P2W in order to justify the usage. It's P2W when you cannot obtain the best gear in the game without using the cash shop. It's P2W when an opponent has a clear advantage over you in PvP because they use the cash shop and you don't. You don't like to cash shop for one reason or another. That's fine. But don't try to justify the use of the label when it clearly doesn't apply in this case.

Let the never-ending conflict between the hardcore and the casuals and those with money to spare and those without continue...

Originally posted by KingGator

Originally posted by Sythion

Why should you have an advantage over me because you have time to play the unacceptably long amount of hours many of these games require?

Cheater. (not sarcasm).

Video games particularly mmos, are time sinks, shouldn't be playing if you don't have the time, but apparently arena net is going to cater to you with their upcoming f2p game so have at it my man!  And you're supposed to be playing a game to play the game, really shouldn't matter how much time you have. 

 

And why should you have an advantage over a poor college kid making 8 bucks an hour and going to school full time so he can't invest the time or pay 2 win, if we're going to use reductio ad absurdum I see your absurdum and raise you one. :)

It appears that it is necessary in subscription models to create 'time sinks' so that a player will continue to pay monthly.  It is an artificial way to keep the player playing.   Example of time sinks include 'travel time' and 'crafting time' although there are others.  Anet has removed those from their game.

When you don't have a monthly subscription and few if any 'time sinks' then the game can focus on other aspect of a massive mutiple online role playing game.

Getting to max level will not be the end-all.  This game does not focus on the haves and have-nots...if you are strapped for cash and have the time, then you can farm for gold to get gems.

If you have some cash, but little time, then you can use cash to get gems.

If you are strapped for cash and have little time, then you need some buddies.  :)   You will still be able to participate in everything in the game, but you might have to wait a bit for that additional alt slot.

When folks talk about play to win...what do they think they will be winning?  

Getting to max level?   Doesn't really help in pvp or pve.  Getting buff scrolls?  They only last an hour, can get them in the game, and make a slight difference.  Getting vanity costumes?   Doesn't really help in pvp or pve.

It must be those pesky mystic keys!   Tell you what...so you don't need to worry about them, I'll trade you gems for all the mystic boxes you find.  How's that?  :)

Pay to Win IRL!

X hires someone to put drowsy pillls on your coffee during a competition against X. 

X is a rich intern and for revenge, X buys out your company and now you are wiping Xs shoe.

X tells bioware "BISH RELEASE MASS EFFECT 3 IN 5 WEEKS I DONT GIVE A !@#$ IF ITS NOT DONE WITH QA! RELEASE!"

I'm not sure anyone is truly discussing the merits of a Cash Shop and/or Pay To Win.  Most of the discussion is trying to nail a definition of Pay To Win down so that a discussion can be had.  For the OP, if I understand correctly, anything being sold in a CS is Pay To Win, particularly if the items are 'unethical' to their sensibility of 'gamer's ethics'.  As a gamer in my 50's, the only thing I see unethical in any game are people that break the stated rules of a game to advance their way through the game.  There are expectations of rules in a genre, but each game has its own rule book, which might or might not be in line with the genre.

If the rules of the game forbid the transfer of RL $ into game gold, then anyone that does this is unethical/cheating.  If the game allows for this then there is no ethics/cheating problem.  It might hurt some people's feelings, but then you, as an 'ethical' gamer, can avoid playing games of this type and businesses that create these types of games.

Now lets move from game rules to unethical behavior for businesses.  This might be the place that the idea of Pay To Win/Cash Shops can be discussed, in something of a objective manner.  This is what I consider the Evil Soul of gaming.  Cash Shops aren't evil in their existence.  What is evil is how the developers of the game create a sense of desire for their products in the in-game store by designing shortcomings into the game itself.  Extreme leveling curves, or limited XP to gain levels at a 'reasonable rate' and then selling shortcuts to leveling,  selling overpowered weapons/armor in the store (particularly if these items are neccessary to advance in the game and have been purposefully left out of the game itself), having to purchase DLC to add to the game in order to actually reach max level, etc. 

In other words, the game you purchased is in some way purposely gimped in it's design to FORCE you into purchasing something from a store...IF you want to continue to play that game to completion.  This should not only be fought against, but if the game is sold as a completed unit, with the idea that the game is whole, finished, and finishable, there are laws against fraud in the US that offer protections to consumers against these problems.  I'm sure, particularly in BtP and PtP games, there will be lawsuits at some point arising from the mishandling of this type of content. 

Originally posted by Roybe

I'm not sure anyone is truly discussing the merits of a Cash Shop and/or Pay To Win.  Most of the discussion is trying to nail a definition of Pay To Win down so that a discussion can be had.  For the OP, if I understand correctly, anything being sold in a CS is Pay To Win, particularly if the items are 'unethical' to their sensibility of 'gamer's ethics'.  As a gamer in my 50's, the only thing I see unethical in any game are people that break the stated rules of a game to advance their way through the game.  There are expectations of rules in a genre, but each game has its own rule book, which might or might not be in line with the genre.

If the rules of the game forbid the transfer of RL $ into game gold, then anyone that does this is unethical/cheating.  If the game allows for this then there is no ethics/cheating problem.  It might hurt some people's feelings, but then you, as an 'ethical' gamer, can avoid playing games of this type and businesses that create these types of games.

Now lets move from game rules to unethical behavior for businesses.  This might be the place that the idea of Pay To Win/Cash Shops can be discussed, in something of a objective manner.  This is what I consider the Evil Soul of gaming.  Cash Shops aren't evil in their existence.  What is evil is how the developers of the game create a sense of desire for their products in the in-game store by designing shortcomings into the game itself.  Extreme leveling curves, or limited XP to gain levels at a 'reasonable rate' and then selling shortcuts to leveling,  selling overpowered weapons/armor in the store (particularly if these items are neccessary to advance in the game and have been purposefully left out of the game itself), having to purchase DLC to add to the game in order to actually reach max level, etc. 

In other words, the game you purchased is in some way purposely gimped in it's design to FORCE you into purchasing something from a store...IF you want to continue to play that game to completion.  This should not only be fought against, but if the game is sold as a completed unit, with the idea that the game is whole, finished, and finishable, there are laws against fraud in the US that offer protections to consumers against these problems.  I'm sure, particularly in BtP and PtP games, there will be lawsuits at some point arising from the mishandling of this type of content. 

Yes, its not ethical to make a customer believe a product is free when its actually expensive to use the product. And they are also trying to prevent the customer from recognizing exactly how expensive it is to play. Typically the customer will do a lot of small transactions and combined and over time it will be a lot of money. If it becomes a habit to use the shop all the time it will normally be much more expensive than playing a P2P game. And I think boosts like potions or scrolls that last 1 hour or 6 hour or whatever are the worst. Some players will buy and use them all time and will not realize and understand how much money they are really spending. Parents should be upset if kids waste all of their money on something like that... And adults without self control can spend money that they really need to pay bills that way. Because they fail to understand how expensive it is and how much they are really spending.

Normally I have no problem with a company trying to make a profit. But it matters how they do it. And F2P is not ethical or honest. Its almost like gambling, IMO. But worse...

"This causes a chain effect that start from the core design of the game, when rates of progression, amount of time and effort required to accomplish certain activiities is decided. Games end up being designed so that the default rate of progression or amount of repetition or attempts, or number of enemies killed, whatever activiity it has, ends up being artificially increased/slowed down in a detrimental way. "

This is the most disturbing to me. Game design that revolves around a cash shop. Having to pay more via enhancments to be allowed to play a game the way it should to begin with puts me off.

Originally posted by Interesting

You spend money to acquire something that ultimatelly allow you to bypass time and effort.

You spend money to acquire something that has value, thus generating value for you out of thin air.

The value you acquire translate into power. The time you skipped, translate into progression. Progression is power.

In the end, anything that is sold on CASH SHOPS that POTENTIALLY allows players to SKIP a portion of TIME AND EFFORT in the game to PROGRESS, ends up giving them a chronologically power advantage over others.

MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player.  By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.

In that sense there is always a chronologic race for progression and acquisition of resources, equipment, valuables or whatever that can be acquired through time and effort.

Under these designs, selling TIME SKIPPERS or TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS are an indirect way of selling power, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, benefitting from the power bait on the cash shops and evading the criticism that our mmorpg community has grown to evolve and label by "Pay To Win".

Time savers affect the chronologic progression and position of power one holds at any determined point in time.

The main problem is that TIME SKIPPERS, CONTENT SKIPPERS, TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS, whatever the developers name it in their interviews END UP AFFECTING THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME.

This causes a chain effect that start from the core design of the game, when rates of progression, amount of time and effort required to accomplish certain activiities is decided. Games end up being designed so that the default rate of progression or amount of repetition or attempts, or number of enemies killed, whatever activiity it has, ends up being artificially increased/slowed down in a detrimental way. While for the payers who are envisioned to benefit from the so called "time-savers" end up having a completely diference experience, one whose progression feels more acceptable and natural (as opposed to the artificially "tweaked" one).

This is clearly observed when games started to go from P2P to F2P. 

When the factors of power are not subjective (relative to the character: such as levels, classes, skills, unlocks), but material (derived from equipment, upgrades, enchants, resources, whatever currency can translate into direct power), players are misguided into believing that the "progression is fast" or that "the level cap is easily reachable within a short time frame anyway", when in reality in these games the FACTORS OF POWER derive from the material branch. In other words, what commonly we call as "gear grind".

So today I saw the announcement about GUILD WARS 2 RMT and I died a bit inside when I saw the same rethoric speech by ArenaNets' O'Brien about offering "Time-saving convenience items". As if adding the word convenience to it would somehow disguise the pay to win nature of time-saving. And all that disregard the fact that real money will be directly translated into virtual value.

Each day the ethic principles that I grew up as a gamer is shifted into a new ethical paradigm.  To me, adding money into the factor of gaming is unethical. Its not ilegal because we the consumers are unorganized and the moving force behind legislation lobbies wants more consumers spending their money and it will take a few years untill the society embraces this virtual social consumerist phenomn and start to treat us like "real life" consumers are.

I believe that what we can do, as I have written before years ago, is that creating a PREJUDICE, by LABELING NEGATIVELLY SOMETHING WE FEEL STRONGLY AGAINST, such as "PAY TO WIN" (as in "this game is pay to win, wich is bad, therefore it sucks" that became automatized in our mass conscience as modern gamers) is a way to VOTE. Is a way to CRIPPLE, is a way to CHANGE and CAUSE EFFECT.  We have seen that smart developers ARE TRYING DESPERATELY TO STEEM AWAY FROM THE "OUR GAME IS PAY TO WIN" LABELING.

Now what I believe we must do, is start to impregnate the "TIME-SAVING", "TIME SKIPPERS" IS BAD! In the same way we managed to do together against Pay to Win. We must reject RMT MODELS THAT AFFECT THE INTEGRITY of our games.

That is the best we can do and we can easily spread this idea by just repeatedly applying the negative label filled with prejudice against the "time saving convenience items". In the end, they are as prejudicial to the games as the original pay to win, but this time, they are being camouflaged, masqueraded to bypass our perceptive filters.

You can pm me to discuss more if you want, or you can keep this one bumped for great justice somore people read. I know that the dark forces of censorship are strong on this one and even legitimate complaints may be misinterpreted as trolling, but may the light shine with you.

 

you know, that's a very long post just to say "i love my epeen too much."

this is an rpg. you know what else was an rpg? diablo. people used to cheat in that all the time. my friend once copied all my character files and found that enjoyable. good on him. how did that change my gaming experience? so he was suddenly the same level as me. wow. that meant we could do a few dungeons together. i didn't miss the content. he did. so, he lost out. i didn't. i took longer than him to level. so? i can tell you i had not only more time in the game, i had more of something else, too.

i had fun.

oh, could you please clarify the following bit for me: Now what I believe we must do, is start to impregnate the "TIME-SAVING", "TIME SKIPPERS" IS BAD! because i just need to ask - do i need to put a rubber on my mouse?

edit: p.s. much of your post was turned into meaningless gibberish by you using words you don't understand. you know, it doesn't make you look smarter to use them. sometimes you just need to use the words you know. just a friendly tip, and i don't mean that in a sarcastic way.

Originally posted by KingGator

 

Video games particularly mmos, are time sinks, shouldn't be playing if you don't have the time, but apparently arena net is going to cater to you with their upcoming f2p game so have at it my man!  And you're supposed to be playing a game to play the game, really shouldn't matter how much time you have. 

No. Video games are enterintament. One should be playing only if it is fun. And variety is part of the fun. Thus, it is more fun to kill different stuff in different zones than grinding the same mob over and over again.

Time savers aren't necessarily P2W for me. Pay to Win goes a lot further, selling items that give actual power that often can't be gotten outside of the cash shop. A lot of F2P games are like that. Time saving and Time skippers could be P2W if the amount of time skipped was really important. If it would take thousands of hours in game to get something that could be bought for a few dollars in game and this item made a real difference. A small boost here and there isn't enough to feel P2W to the people that choose or are forced to do without them.

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by Roybe

I'm not sure anyone is truly discussing the merits of a Cash Shop and/or Pay To Win.  Most of the discussion is trying to nail a definition of Pay To Win down so that a discussion can be had.  For the OP, if I understand correctly, anything being sold in a CS is Pay To Win, particularly if the items are 'unethical' to their sensibility of 'gamer's ethics'.  As a gamer in my 50's, the only thing I see unethical in any game are people that break the stated rules of a game to advance their way through the game.  There are expectations of rules in a genre, but each game has its own rule book, which might or might not be in line with the genre.

If the rules of the game forbid the transfer of RL $ into game gold, then anyone that does this is unethical/cheating.  If the game allows for this then there is no ethics/cheating problem.  It might hurt some people's feelings, but then you, as an 'ethical' gamer, can avoid playing games of this type and businesses that create these types of games.

Now lets move from game rules to unethical behavior for businesses.  This might be the place that the idea of Pay To Win/Cash Shops can be discussed, in something of a objective manner.  This is what I consider the Evil Soul of gaming.  Cash Shops aren't evil in their existence.  What is evil is how the developers of the game create a sense of desire for their products in the in-game store by designing shortcomings into the game itself.  Extreme leveling curves, or limited XP to gain levels at a 'reasonable rate' and then selling shortcuts to leveling,  selling overpowered weapons/armor in the store (particularly if these items are neccessary to advance in the game and have been purposefully left out of the game itself), having to purchase DLC to add to the game in order to actually reach max level, etc. 

In other words, the game you purchased is in some way purposely gimped in it's design to FORCE you into purchasing something from a store...IF you want to continue to play that game to completion.  This should not only be fought against, but if the game is sold as a completed unit, with the idea that the game is whole, finished, and finishable, there are laws against fraud in the US that offer protections to consumers against these problems.  I'm sure, particularly in BtP and PtP games, there will be lawsuits at some point arising from the mishandling of this type of content. 

Yes, its not ethical to make a customer believe a product is free when its actually expensive to use the product. And they are also trying to prevent the customer from recognizing exactly how expensive it is to play. Typically the customer will do a lot of small transactions and combined and over time it will be a lot of money. If it becomes a habit to use the shop all the time it will normally be much more expensive than playing a P2P game. And I think boosts like potions or scrolls that last 1 hour or 6 hour or whatever are the worst. Some players will buy and use them all time and will not realize and understand how much money they are really spending. Parents should be upset if kids waste all of their money on something like that... And adults without self control can spend money that they really need to pay bills that way. Because they fail to understand how expensive it is and how much they are really spending.

Normally I have no problem with a company trying to make a profit. But it matters how they do it. And F2P is not ethical or honest. Its almost like gambling, IMO. But worse...

I am in disagreement with you on your statement.  Calling something free, then charging a customer for it, isn't unethical...that's a stupid consumer IF they give the company money.  Caveat Emptor.

Think about video poker.  You drop a $$ into the game, that is preprogrammed by someone to take your money at a given rate, hoping to 'win' more than you pay.  There is no incentive on programmers side to do anything but take your money at a higher rate than you are putting it in.  You, as a player, are never going to come out ahead.   Thinking otherwise and still playing is stupid.

Now for someone that is playing an MMO and is getting something from the Cash SHop they are guaranteed a return on their $$, there is no gambling.  I bought this, I get this in return.  Their own ignorance of their spending habits isn't a problem in my eyes.  The idea that like a video poker machine, programmers set the players up to 'fail' within the game so they are FORCED to purchase stuff from the CS IS the crime.  As a friend of mine is fond of saying, 'the game cheats' in some way, due to the programmers desire to make you spend $$$. The most blatant example I could come up with is if I'm buying a game that is 'completable' without ever having to pay a dime to a cash shop, but the only way to finish the game is with the Super Sword of End Boss Killing (available only in the cash shop for $19.99) this is fraudulent.  Many of the Cash Shop items and game mechanics (in many games) are bordering on this.  When it takes 6 weeks to grind a level, but you could spend $5 and do the same thing in 2 days, on it's face is not wrong, but if the company in question said that anyone could level to max without spending $$$ in the cash shop I'd have to cry BS.  They have programmed the game to favor purchasing the buff. 

Originally posted by Kazara

"This causes a chain effect that start from the core design of the game, when rates of progression, amount of time and effort required to accomplish certain activiities is decided. Games end up being designed so that the default rate of progression or amount of repetition or attempts, or number of enemies killed, whatever activiity it has, ends up being artificially increased/slowed down in a detrimental way. "

This is the most disturbing to me. Game design that revolves around a cash shop. Having to pay more via enhancments to be allowed to play a game the way it should to begin with puts me off.

When you play some of the P2W games it becomes very obvious that everything is designed to make you use the CS as often as possible. And when you try to do something a window will often pop up and tell you that you can go to the shop and buy a time saver or boost. IMO, that makes the game feel cheap and like a obvious cash grab. Its not really the money that is the problem... Its the quality of the game that suffers. Even if you buy(and can afford) everything you want or need the gaming experience will still be bad.

I think a level playing field makes a game more fun. And the shop is also immersion breaking. It makes it harder for me to feel Im part of a virtual world. I dont want to have to think about RL money and costs when I play MMO:s.

Originally posted by Hurvart

And when you try to do something a window will often pop up and tell you that you can go to the shop and buy a time saver or boost. IMO, that makes the game feel cheap and like a obvious cash grab. Its not really the money that is the problem... Its the quality of the game that suffers.

This is obviously not true for many games. I played STO and nothing ever popped up.

I don't see how time skippers matter in the long term. It doesn't really affect me very much.

So you are a higher level than me? Okay, you go ahead and play the high level PvE content before me. I'll catch up in a few days and save my money.

Oh, you think being a higher level matters in PvP? Well, you may have more abilities than me, but with bolster I'll still kick your butt... and even if I don't, I will in a few days when I catch up!

Leveling is finite. I can always catch up no matter how much someone buys leveling boosts. I'm perfectly fine waiting a couple days to be as powerful on paper as someone else. As long as skill is the determining factor over the long term, I'm okay with temporary boosts.