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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Unfair games - is it possible?

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85 posts found
  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/29/12 8:51:54 AM#21
Originally posted by Madatan

I'm an old fox when it comes to MMOs, been playing everything with a sub since UO and tons of muds. And the beginning of MMOs was magically just because it was new, cool and awesome. But lately I've been starting to find it bland and boring. No innovation, same tracks from game to game. I've been trying to understand what it is that I don't like about the current themepark or the occasional half decent sandbox and I think I got it. I don't want games to be fair.

I hate it that a powerful sorcerer should be beaten by a warrior, I don't like that an Giant assassin should be as good as a Gnome assassin or that a Human archer should be as sharp eyed as a Wood Elf.

I want it to be unfair. I would like to see a powerful mage just woop the asses of two warriors running against him. It would create immersion on a whole new level. Other things would of course have to change too, it can't be as easy becoming a powerful mage, maybe you have to find a book of spells thats extremly hard to find, maybe it's even the only one of its kind. Maybe you will become hunted by a large group of other players who also want that book.

I want it possible for a ranger to find a magical bow that could pierce any protective spell, a paladin who could call upon his gods in one death defying moment, an assassin who could sneak past anyone with her very rare cloak of invisibility.

But I realise that this is a dream, an almost impossible dream. What do you think, could this ever become a reality? Where the lines between a good fantasy book and a fantasy MMO starts to fade, and you start to feel that feeling you had when you first logged in to DAoC. That feeling of awe.


Coming off my week long ban, its time to plug TTS! I am designing a system in which not everyone can be a mage, and in which mages have a considerably larger amount of power than a general warrior. Now a single mage cannot win the game. Its a massive multiworld RTS in which crafting is about 40% of the game including base building, mage crafting, dozens of types of crafting and with thousands of item types. And sadly for some, its 100% PvE. Being a mage isn't easy. You have to work:

Explore large areas of the world to find places that weren't already looted of magic knowledge

Locate words of power for the basic kinds of magic like elemental damage and defense

Find books describing various types of magic that are specialized compared to the norm

Use books to make spell combinations with unique and awesome effects

Simply combine words in various ways to come up with special effects if you have no book shortcut

Trade magic words in a systemw here a word that is known by too many degrades

Sell grimoires that allow the use but not creation of spells to other mages and non mages

Do special mage crafting learned by accident or from books to make fabulous items

Enchant items with multiple useful magical effects

So much more

 

Because there is no PvP I am freed from the requirement of having all classes be perfectly equal in power. And since its a sandbox with no player caps no one is going to get shut out of a raid because of inferior specs. And in fact maximizing per second DPS is not nearly as important as crafting good items, traps, tools, utility items, and so forth. As well as good magic. And of course clever use of the environment to do crowd control and damage and not just direct spell casts. Even non mages can utilize the environment in various ways.

Also a complex and deep system of invisibility and stealth and making thief classes much more like you would hear of in a story.

There is still a use for a regular fighter though.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

3/29/12 8:58:52 AM#22
Originally posted by Madatan
Originally posted by Loke666

Of course you can make an unfair game, as long as you balance it in some way or another.

You can make it unfair depending on the situation. For an instance can a fire mage get a bad debuff as long as it rains, he could beslightly more powerful than other classes when it not rains then to even it out.

A vampire could be more powerful than other races at night but less powerful at day.

The thing is that balance is something overall. A ranger can be very dangerous at long range but easy to beat in melee. A mage can have a single powerful spell with long cooldown whilehis rests spells do slightly less damage. 

A small character can be harder to hit (in mechanics based on collision detection instead of tab targetting) but also will have some less hitpoints.

You can make a game very unfair and still balanced, it is just a lot harder than having a few evenly balanced classes where all attacks themselves are balanced as well.

Gunpowder weapons could be used like this more realistically. A wheelock pistol will pierce almost any armor like cheese but it also take a long time to reload it.

Having a single class that always are more powerful than the others on the other hand just plain suck. Every class should have their moment in the sun. You don't need rock - scissor - paper mechanics but can instead have factors based on the enviroment and the situation.

I don't consider that as unfair, as you say it balances itself out depending on the situation. I am talking about a game where Magic is actual as powerful as it is meant to be. That includes having the advantage in most situations, assuming you have skill and versatility. 

But maybe I look at it from the wrong way, what I really am looking for is a game that rewards your efforts, and not just in having the most kills and experience but rather because you took the effort of climbing a huge mountain, slaying a dragon, using your brain and acquire the Book of Spells. A unique item, something that gives you the edge if used right. Of course it could be lost if a group of adventureres band together and use their talents to take you down.

Thats the sort of unfair gameplay I'm talking about. And I realise it's close to impossible.

 

You can do it for example if a Mage can kill 30 with a spell, but he needs to spend 3 minutes preparing it and then remain motionless until it is cast. This would leave him vulnerable to attacks before and after. The problem is people seem to demand 1 on 1 fairness which just means all classes are merged into 1 level at everything. Eg Mage casts fire ball warrior jumps in air and lands with " thunder strike" effect is the same.
  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/29/12 9:00:48 AM#23
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Madatan
Originally posted by Loke666

Of course you can make an unfair game, as long as you balance it in some way or another.

You can make it unfair depending on the situation. For an instance can a fire mage get a bad debuff as long as it rains, he could beslightly more powerful than other classes when it not rains then to even it out.

A vampire could be more powerful than other races at night but less powerful at day.

The thing is that balance is something overall. A ranger can be very dangerous at long range but easy to beat in melee. A mage can have a single powerful spell with long cooldown whilehis rests spells do slightly less damage. 

A small character can be harder to hit (in mechanics based on collision detection instead of tab targetting) but also will have some less hitpoints.

You can make a game very unfair and still balanced, it is just a lot harder than having a few evenly balanced classes where all attacks themselves are balanced as well.

Gunpowder weapons could be used like this more realistically. A wheelock pistol will pierce almost any armor like cheese but it also take a long time to reload it.

Having a single class that always are more powerful than the others on the other hand just plain suck. Every class should have their moment in the sun. You don't need rock - scissor - paper mechanics but can instead have factors based on the enviroment and the situation.

I don't consider that as unfair, as you say it balances itself out depending on the situation. I am talking about a game where Magic is actual as powerful as it is meant to be. That includes having the advantage in most situations, assuming you have skill and versatility. 

But maybe I look at it from the wrong way, what I really am looking for is a game that rewards your efforts, and not just in having the most kills and experience but rather because you took the effort of climbing a huge mountain, slaying a dragon, using your brain and acquire the Book of Spells. A unique item, something that gives you the edge if used right. Of course it could be lost if a group of adventureres band together and use their talents to take you down.

Thats the sort of unfair gameplay I'm talking about. And I realise it's close to impossible.

 

You can do it for example if a Mage can kill 30 with a spell, but he needs to spend 3 minutes preparing it and then remain motionless until it is cast. This would leave him vulnerable to attacks before and after. The problem is people seem to demand 1 on 1 fairness which just means all classes are merged into 1 level at everything. Eg Mage casts fire ball warrior jumps in air and lands with " thunder strike" effect is the same.

It is important to have limitations, but to be true to novels these must be able to be subsumed somehow. Nodes/ley lines, mana storage, blood magic, some mages are innately more powerful, and so forth.

  taziar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/09/11
Posts: 58

3/29/12 9:16:48 AM#24

It is not really about fairness, but more that everyone wants to be special.  Everyone wants to be the hero.  Unfortunately, if everyone is heroic, nobody really is.  

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/29/12 9:57:28 AM#25
Originally posted by taziar

It is not really about fairness, but more that everyone wants to be special.  Everyone wants to be the hero.  Unfortunately, if everyone is heroic, nobody really is.  

That's not even what most people want though (even though it's compelling.)

The negative reaction to unfairness is that when you genuinely play skillfully the game still calls you a peasant.

In real life if the peasant skillfully lands 20 sword strikes before the King can land 3, the peasant wins.

In Darkfall I landed 20 sword strikes on another player before they landed 3, but I died in 3 while they had 90% health remaining.

Unfairness makes for terrible PVP.

Unfairness can work for PVE, but only in specific ways.  If the powerful mage is a PVE boss who provides an interesting fight for 5 players, nobody cares that the fight isn't fair 1v1.  They only care that the fight is fair 1v5, so that if the party plays skillfully they defeat the mage but if they screw up they lose.

Unfairness also doesn't work in PVE if it's implemented in some arbitrary "mages suck in early levels but are OP in late levels" way.  Mostly because that's not a particularly interesting decision to offer in a game (excessive periods of shittiness followed by indisputed dominance.) 

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

3/29/12 10:03:57 AM#26
Originally posted by Madatan

I'm an old fox when it comes to MMOs, been playing everything with a sub since UO and tons of muds. And the beginning of MMOs was magically just because it was new, cool and awesome. But lately I've been starting to find it bland and boring. No innovation, same tracks from game to game. I've been trying to understand what it is that I don't like about the current themepark or the occasional half decent sandbox and I think I got it. I don't want games to be fair.

I hate it that a powerful sorcerer should be beaten by a warrior, I don't like that an Giant assassin should be as good as a Gnome assassin or that a Human archer should be as sharp eyed as a Wood Elf.

I want it to be unfair. I would like to see a powerful mage just woop the asses of two warriors running against him. It would create immersion on a whole new level. Other things would of course have to change too, it can't be as easy becoming a powerful mage, maybe you have to find a book of spells thats extremly hard to find, maybe it's even the only one of its kind. Maybe you will become hunted by a large group of other players who also want that book.

I want it possible for a ranger to find a magical bow that could pierce any protective spell, a paladin who could call upon his gods in one death defying moment, an assassin who could sneak past anyone with her very rare cloak of invisibility.

But I realise that this is a dream, an almost impossible dream. What do you think, could this ever become a reality? Where the lines between a good fantasy book and a fantasy MMO starts to fade, and you start to feel that feeling you had when you first logged in to DAoC. That feeling of awe.

There is actually a way to make this balenced. you are using the class/race ideal for this. in terms of the Giant assassin vs the Gnome assassin, they should fight in different ways. the giant assassin should be burly and hard to hurt while the gnome assassin is no where to be found and then pops out of no where with a single attack killing you. Human VS Elf should be the elf seeing you at a greater distance and is able to fine tune a shot much easier.  now in terms for a class vs class ideal, it should be that certian classes beat eachother under certian conditions. Sorc Vs Warrior, in a enclosed area with lots to hide behind. the warrior should be able to win just by moving. wide open field, yeah sorry warrior, your extra crispy.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/29/12 10:15:20 AM#27

Did Frodo whine that Gandalf's over 9000 power level was unfair? No. He said thank god Gandalf is here to help us or we would be fucked.

  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

3/29/12 10:21:12 AM#28

What did you get a week ban for, Cuathon?  I only got a three-day from that thread cluster.

  st4t1ck

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 584

3/29/12 10:25:38 AM#29

i kinda like some of the idea's floating here, but wouldnt there be an over abundance of mage's?

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/29/12 10:34:38 AM#30
Originally posted by Khaeros

What did you get a week ban for, Cuathon?  I only got a three-day from that thread cluster.

I have had like 8 bans this month so I think ban times are an exponential function. I asked that one guy are you an idiot. Because he called me stupid first. But apparently that doesn't matter.

In any case I t hink I will avoid bannable posts for the next couple months or so. I was so bored without being able to participate in forum PvP. I thank the professer for making such a good battleground on my first day back :)

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3204

Veni, Vidi, Converti

3/29/12 10:39:40 AM#31

Yes, I think it's possible but more complicated than balancing levels. Perhaps ppl's defence does not increase by much but their attack does? So on paper it's unfair, but in practice there's a chance of unexpected outcome. 

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

3/29/12 10:41:25 AM#32
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Khaeros

What did you get a week ban for, Cuathon?  I only got a three-day from that thread cluster.

I have had like 8 bans this month so I think ban times are an exponential function. I asked that one guy are you an idiot. Because he called me stupid first. But apparently that doesn't matter.

In any case I t hink I will avoid bannable posts for the next couple months or so. I was so bored without being able to participate in forum PvP. I thank the professer for making such a good battleground on my first day back :)

That wasnt a battleground, that was a slaughter of a helpless village.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

3/29/12 10:41:51 AM#33
Originally posted by Cuathon

Did Frodo whine that Gandalf's over 9000 power level was unfair? No. He said thank god Gandalf is here to help us or we would be fucked.

However, Gandalf was balanced by the fact that he simply could not carry the One Ring without it turning him into another Sauron. 

 

If Gandalf could carry the ring on his own, then he would not need Frodo and he would have left the hobbits behind in the Shire.  Heck, he probably would have just soloed the entire quest and not bothered to invite Aragorn, Legolas or Gimli.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/29/12 10:42:29 AM#34
Originally posted by LadyNoh
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Khaeros

What did you get a week ban for, Cuathon?  I only got a three-day from that thread cluster.

I have had like 8 bans this month so I think ban times are an exponential function. I asked that one guy are you an idiot. Because he called me stupid first. But apparently that doesn't matter.

In any case I t hink I will avoid bannable posts for the next couple months or so. I was so bored without being able to participate in forum PvP. I thank the professer for making such a good battleground on my first day back :)

That wasnt a battleground, that was a slaughter of a helpless village.

To use a more modern example, we were the imperials and he was the republic on Ilum. /tortanic

  Madatan

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/03/05
Posts: 134

 
OP  3/29/12 10:42:33 AM#35
Originally posted by st4t1ck

i kinda like some of the idea's floating here, but wouldnt there be an over abundance of mage's?

Unfair was perhaps not the best choice of word. But my idea would be that anyone who would have an advantage would also have had to fight for it in some matter. It should not be easy. I could see permadeath or really harsh death penalties apply to a game like this. Also unique items would fit the bill.

Maybe magic users are shunned and feared, thus the other population hunt them without remorse :)

  st4t1ck

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 584

3/29/12 10:45:34 AM#36
Originally posted by Madatan
Originally posted by st4t1ck

i kinda like some of the idea's floating here, but wouldnt there be an over abundance of mage's?

Unfair was perhaps not the best choice of word. But my idea would be that anyone who would have an advantage would also have had to fight for it in some matter. It should not be easy. I could see permadeath or really harsh death penalties apply to a game like this. Also unique items would fit the bill.

Maybe magic users are shunned and feared, thus the other population hunt them without remorse :)

On the rare items thing, Say theres only one in the whole game world and you got it, could i then take it from you somehow?

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/29/12 10:45:45 AM#37
Originally posted by Madatan
Originally posted by st4t1ck

i kinda like some of the idea's floating here, but wouldnt there be an over abundance of mage's?

Unfair was perhaps not the best choice of word. But my idea would be that anyone who would have an advantage would also have had to fight for it in some matter. It should not be easy. I could see permadeath or really harsh death penalties apply to a game like this. Also unique items would fit the bill.

Maybe magic users are shunned and feared, thus the other population hunt them without remorse :)

In my implementation for TTS everyone can't be a mage. Obviously if we had WoW style class selection and one class was overpowered everyone would pick that. That's why you have to design a new method.

  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

3/29/12 10:46:48 AM#38

Oh.  I was almost convinced that my next ban would be a perma, but if you really did get 8, then I probably have nothing to worry about.

 

Welp, time to make sandboxers hella mad somewhere and get banned for posting positive feedback on themeparks

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

3/29/12 10:47:48 AM#39

Mages should'nt be all powerful Demigods that can't be killed. Simply put you should only need to know HOW to kill them. it would be nice to bring in the idea of HOW to fight instead of just charging and swinging. Strategy in the MMORPG community has allways amounted to Which order to use your skills in. i would love a bushido blade (for those PS1 players) where taking a solid hit ment death. it would force people to either know how to play their role, or not play the game.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/29/12 10:48:38 AM#40
Originally posted by Khaeros

Oh.  I was almost convinced that my next ban would be a perma, but if you really did get 8, then I probably have nothing to worry about.

 

Welp, time to make sandboxers hella mad somewhere and get banned for posting positive feedback on themeparks

If the number of bans you have received has not knocked you down to advanced member you probably won't be permabanned anytime soon.

The only reason bans really annoy me besides cutting me off from forums pvp is that I should be an elite member...

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