Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by palulalula

Well with 3 buttons to push all the time gw2 combat don't look as real challenge for old school pvp players.  Guy in this video got the point. I know you will say-''dude but we can dodge here''  but how i can see it is only hiting and hiting same buttons again and again. But maybe is that some kind of  ''zen'' thing and we normal people cant see that mysterious way of hidden combat

  

    First off, you can switch weapons to get different skill sets while in combat (from what I've watched), secondly .. there's actually more like 10 skills for each set of weapons (5 skills per weapon?).

    Changing weapons will be, according to what I've watched and even TBs commentary, crucial to the gameplay. So in lieu of choosing a secondary a subset of skills and sticking with them you'll be swapping them out in the middle of combat, or am I wrong?

 

Thats right, at least how Im seeing it.

I imagine there will be times when your switching weapons a lot, which would take more skill than button mashing.

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Distopia

IF you want to talk about challenge do it while showing examples as that's the point of video, don't show people literally face-rolling everything in their way. I mean did anyone else notice as he says " Lots of people say mobs fall in a few hits, this is nonsense..." (paraphrased)  while mobs are falling left and right after a few hits? if you won't show it, why talk about it?

Actually, I did notice that.  I was like, "he could have timed it a bit better".. but I figure maybe he just didn't think about the footage his voice would be accompanying.  It wasn't live, after all.  Otherwise, yeah, bad timing.

Yeah maybe just bad editing (zero editing).I think overall it was horrible footage to use to support a challenge argument. Maybe that's all it was, it's just a flatout bad example iMO to use as the premise of the overall thread.

You guys are something else.  Look down on the left hand side of the yellow bar at the bottom. ...

The necro is LVL 2.  How many hits do you want to do in a group of 5 to kill 1 mob at LVL 2?  The footage STILL shows him going into the down state because he didnt play well AT LVL 2.

You guys are genii. (psst thats plural for genius)

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by BlahTeeb

Originally posted by troublmaker

Um... you have to time your cooldowns in WoW too.  If you have three stuns you can't just use them all at once.  They have to be timed appropriately.  You can't just pop your PvP trinket on the first CC, you have to use it when you need it.  You have to time up your burst for the appropriate point because if you use it all on CD they'll just heal through it.  Now I haven't played WoW for quite some time but I'm betting it is still the same.

TotalBiscuit is actually an idiot and his only qualiifcations in gaming is that he was a clerk at a GameStop for 6 years.  TotalBiscuit was saying the exact same thing about WoW three years ago when he was covering Cataclysm Beta.  He was also saying the same thing about SWTOR beta.

He has a great voice and is a great Starcraft 2 commentator... but he's not very good at games at all.

He actually wasn't that into SWTOR.

I thought SWTOR was better than what he said/experienced.

Still I agree with most of the above, that just about everything he said about Challenge/ timing also applies to WOW, EQ2, AOC TOR, or many other themeparks. I say that as person who has never been a fan of those games as MMOs.

My problem was with the challenge topic he brought up, GW2 from these press videos (even that one), seems just like any other modern MMO. Most content is designed to faceroll through while there are select encounters that are actually given thought,  the rest looks meh.. Just look at the video (where he tries to argue challenge), no one is coming close to dieing, mobs drop like flies (even as he says that doesn't happen ROFL) , players get hit with a few bursts (half health) after their health doesn't move (everything is dead), same as TOR.  As an example I found challenging encounters in TOR (mostly solo boss battles during the class stories) the rest unless it was herioc was a breeze.

I doubt GW2 will be different I definitely don't expect it to be.. this is something that devs today seem to ensure (so the masses can play). I'm not saying it looks bad, just doesn't look "hard" and these peeps are not even using dodge half the time.

IF this games wasn't designed for millions I wouldn't feel as I do above, then again I never found much challenge in older MMO's either, game-play still felt watered down back then, I think it's just part of making MMO's, if they make them hard they won't be catering to the masses at all.

I always enjoy your posts, Distopia; you're always thoughtful and, what I appreciate moreso, moderate.  I wanted to add a couple of thougths to your posits about mass appeal relationships with difficulty level.  I'm sure we've seen this discussion many times on the various GW2 forums around the internet, but let me again suggest that it is most definitely difficult to find a sweet spot for game difficulty/challenge where a playerbase is composed of a wide variety of levels of adeptness.  In other words, I believe skepticism about possible high skill cap is prudent at this point, regardless of TB's optimism.

Don't anyone take this as me suggesting that the game won't have challenges, but rather that I'm suggesting combat, at least pve combat, is unlikely to have anywhere near a constant high challenge level, especially in the open world/dynamic events.  One might argue that I'm underestimating the average player's skill level, or that the average player will be content with mediocre results, or even that Anet simply doesn't give a damn about average players.  I certainly don't see any reason to believe any of that.  I should, however, acknowledge that challenge and difficulty are subjective terms so we won't all perceive them the same way.  User experiences will vary.  Also, PvP is a separate argument.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by brody71

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Eir_S

Skepticism doesn't bother me, but at least make sense if you're going to call someone's (ie: TB's) judgement into question.  No one's likely to believe a claim like the ones in this thread unless there's a trail of breadcrumbs leading back to a conclusion that everyone could conceivably make, provided they were so inclined to take the time to do so.

If TB is being paid to say good things about GW2 - even though he says he finds Personal Story boring - then I guess one could also come to the conclusion, being paranoid enough already, that the Beefjack.com previewer was paid off too, since there's not much evidence he even played the game (he was complaining that he couldn't make his Necromancer a tank wtf).  

But who wants to jump on that crazy train?  It's not improbable to believe reviewers are paid off, but ... TB?  Come on, have some faith.

OR better yet, how about we leave the topic of "shills" in another thread? This is about challenge of combat. You want breadcrumbs that lead back to a disagreement about TB's take on combat? Well they certainly didn't show it, yet instead simply tried promoting the idea of it.

IF you want to talk about challenge do it while showing examples as that's the point of video, don't show people literally face-rolling everything in their way. I mean did anyone else notice as he says " Lots of people say mobs fall in a few hits, this is nonsense..." (paraphrased)  while mobs are falling left and right after a few hits? if you won't show it, why talk about it?

TB also said in that video that it can be button mashing if too many people for certain events are there. people hear what they want. 

There were at most times 2-3 people on screen, taking on groups of 3-4 mobs. -3 people = Too many?!

i was referring to his thief video where he was soloing and just talking.  i was trying to agree with yur point.

Originally posted by Ruien

You guys are something else.  Look down on the left hand side of the yellow bar at the bottom. ...

 

 

The necro is LVL 2.  How many hits do you want to do in a group of 5 to kill 1 mob at LVL 2?  The footage STILL shows him going into the down state because he didnt play well AT LVL 2.

 

 

You guys are genii. (pst thats plural for genius)

Can someone tell me of an mmo that had challenging combat in the very beggining of the game?

I mean what's the highest level we've seen of GW2, level 30? 

Originally posted by brody71

O

TB also said in that video that it can be button mashing if too many people for certain events are there. people hear what they want. 

There were at most times 2-3 people on screen, taking on groups of 3-4 mobs. -3 people = Too many?!

i was referring to his thief video where he was soloing and just talking.  i was trying to agree with yur point.

My bad I wasn't sure whether you were agreeing or disagreeing lol, figured one was the bad call heh and I made it :P.

Originally posted by Ruien

You guys are something else.  Look down on the left hand side of the yellow bar at the bottom. ...

 

 

The necro is LVL 2.  How many hits do you want to do in a group of 5 to kill 1 mob at LVL 2?  The footage STILL shows him going into the down state because he didnt play well AT LVL 2.

 

 

You guys are genii. (pst thats plural for genius)

My point was from a journalistic standpoint, which makes what the level was a moot point, he used that footage while talking about challenge, it just doesn't make sense. WHen you set out to show people wrong, it's usually a good rule of thumb to you know... show it? :p

Originally posted by Kickaxe

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by BlahTeeb

Originally posted by troublmakerat all.

I always enjoy your posts, Distopia; you're always thoughtful and, what I appreciate moreso, moderate.  I wanted to add a couple of thougths to your posits about mass appeal relationships with difficulty level.  I'm sure we've seen this discussion many times on the various GW2 forums around the internet, but let me again suggest that it is most definitely difficult to find a sweet spot for game difficulty/challenge where a playerbase is composed of a wide variety of levels of adeptness.  In other words, I believe skepticism about possible high skill cap is prudent at this point, regardless of TB's optimism.

 

Don't anyone take this as me suggesting that the game won't have challenges, but rather that I'm suggesting combat, at least pve combat, is unlikely to have anywhere near a constant high challenge level, especially in the open world/dynamic events.  One might argue that I'm underestimating the average player's skill level, or that the average player will be content with mediocre results, or even that Anet simply doesn't give a damn about average players.  I certainly don't see any reason to believe any of that.  I should, however, acknowledge that challenge and difficulty are subjective terms so we won't all perceive them the same way.  User experiences will vary.  Also, PvP is a separate argument.

It will be hard to set the perfect difficulty level for everyone, as most PvE content seems to be DE's in the open world (except for dungeons). Say what you want about instanced content, but it does allow you to set many levels of difficulty. Ex. In DDO you had 4 levels of difficulty for any levels, plus Epic max level setting. It's going to be hard to get DE's challenging enough for the more skilled players, while keeping the less skilled from getting frustrated over dying to much.

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Can someone tell me of an mmo that had challenging combat in the very beggining of the game?

I mean what's the highest level we've seen of GW2, level 30? 

according to a lot of people that bashed TERA every game should be challenging out of the gate.

Originally posted by ropenice

Originally posted by Kickaxe

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by BlahTeeb

Originally posted by troublmakerat all.

I always enjoy your posts, Distopia; you're always thoughtful and, what I appreciate moreso, moderate.  I wanted to add a couple of thougths to your posits about mass appeal relationships with difficulty level.  I'm sure we've seen this discussion many times on the various GW2 forums around the internet, but let me again suggest that it is most definitely difficult to find a sweet spot for game difficulty/challenge where a playerbase is composed of a wide variety of levels of adeptness.  In other words, I believe skepticism about possible high skill cap is prudent at this point, regardless of TB's optimism.

 

Don't anyone take this as me suggesting that the game won't have challenges, but rather that I'm suggesting combat, at least pve combat, is unlikely to have anywhere near a constant high challenge level, especially in the open world/dynamic events.  One might argue that I'm underestimating the average player's skill level, or that the average player will be content with mediocre results, or even that Anet simply doesn't give a damn about average players.  I certainly don't see any reason to believe any of that.  I should, however, acknowledge that challenge and difficulty are subjective terms so we won't all perceive them the same way.  User experiences will vary.  Also, PvP is a separate argument.

It will be hard to set the perfect difficulty level for everyone, as most PvE content seems to be DE's in the open world (except for dungeons). Say what you want about instanced content, but it does allow you to set many levels of difficulty. Ex. In DDO you had 4 levels of difficulty for any levels, plus Epic max level setting. It's going to be hard to get DE's challenging enough for the more skilled players, while keeping the less skilled from getting frustrated over dying to much.

Exactly which is why harder content today is typically optional, and off the beaten path the masses travel.

Very good points Kickaxe^^

Originally posted by brody71

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Can someone tell me of an mmo that had challenging combat in the very beggining of the game?

I mean what's the highest level we've seen of GW2, level 30? 

according to a lot of people that bashed TERA every game should be challenging out of the gate.

Yeah the quote usually goes something like this " If I don't see all the game has to offer in 10 minutes, that's all I need to decalre it a POS".

Originally posted by itgrowls

TotalBisquit puts the smack down on the bad reviewers once again 

TotalBisquit 2 concerning combat.

You can tell me the combat in this game sh*ts out gold coins and cheeseburgers, but so what?

Until I have had my hands on I could care less, fanboy on all you want. I hope it lives up to the hype but I am not going to drool all over my self in a herpderp fest because of a few videos...

Figured ArenaNet would go carebare because they can't help themselves catering to the casuals.

Well I think his point, cyress, was that you see this complaint about every mmo now. If people don't die at level 1 then apparently the whole game is too easy.

NOTE: I haven't played the game, but this is according to what I've seen in the clips.

When talking about difficulty Tera is a joke from the beginning.  It does get harder 30+ and the endgame content  is rather challenging.  In GW2 the game never gets easy, although it does get easier depeding how many players are running around  with you. Even though the monsters scale up and get new abilites (1-shot aoe's for example) it's always easier to keep the fight going with more people in sense of resurrecting people aswell as corpse running back to action really quick. The boss only resets if all of the players die at the same time. Another important factor for GW2 is that the game has really aggressive scaling. You instantly get scaled down  to the appropriate level when you enter the area so there's no way to "faceroll" the content. GW2 has the hardest early game in MMORPGs I've seen in awhile.

Originally posted by cyress8

 

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Originally posted by brody71

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Originally posted by DJJazzy
Can someone tell me of an mmo that had challenging combat in the very beggining of the game?
I mean what's the highest level we've seen of GW2, level 30? 

---

according to a lot of people that bashed TERA every game should be challenging out of the gate.

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After playing both, GW2 is actually more diffculty than Tera. There I said it. Some events are easy. However, when you do an event with 2-3 people in the starting area it gets difficult real quick.

 

Ex. Charr starting area - lvl 6 - while passing by an event is going on to help tidy up a junkyard that houses old weapons and etc. You finish that event. Go off do something else. You head back to the Charr home city, the junkyard is under attack by the Flame Legion trying to recover those old weapons.

Once you head in you take down a few. A few seconds later more come storming in and looking all badass since they are charr. (And i'm not just talking about 1 or 2 mobs.) You see about 5-6 coming in on 1 side then right behind you at the other entrance 5-6 more coming. It was just me and 2 others doing this event along with about 3 damn weak npcs. (Most NPC allies are pretty weak in this game. Do not expect them to do much but cause a quick distraction.)

The fight was hectic as hell the whole time, from dodging, healing, and rezzing. Just straight out trying to survive. And we still lost since the Flame Legion were able to take the stuff from the junkyard while we tryed our best to stay alive.

I don't know if you're just ignoring the PM I sent you but I've already reported you to ArenaNET. You are risking a permanent ban from access to all their games.

Everything in beta is subject to change anyway so everything you are telling people now might not reflect the final product in anyway.. so I don't see why you feel the need to vent your love and excitement.

Why does "combat" always have to be "challenging" when it's something you're constantly involved with doing? How many people say, "Gee, I hope driving my car to work tomorrow morning is challenging!" Challenging encounters here and there is a good thing, but when just about every encounter requires you to pay 100% attention and play your class to perfection it just becomes annoying

That's what I think Blizzard "gets" about WoW.  Speaking purely from the level cap, there's quite a variety of difficulty to be seen. Solo questing is highly casual and easy.  Anyone can do it while watching TV, while talking on the phone, or while just killing some time.  Heroic 5-man are a little bit more difficult.  You need to know which buttons to press and when to press them, and it certainly is possible to wipe depending on the gear level of your group, but generally speaking, mistakes can be healed through.  Zandalari heroics are a lot more difficult, and you can die pretty quickly if you don't know what you're doing.  Likewise, raiding is even more difficult.

The difference between the content?  You're not exactly raiding or running heroics ever second of your playtime.  Running dailies is something most every WoW player does once per day, so why should they be challenging?  If I'm going to have to run them over and over again, I want to be able to fly through them without much thought.  I feel similarly about questing in general.  When I want a challenge; however, I can queue for a dungeon or sign up for a raid.  I might run two or three raids a week, and that's plenty of challenge for me.

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Well I think his point, cyress, was that you see this complaint about every mmo now. If people don't die at level 1 then apparently the whole game is too easy.

I believe people tend to exaggerate ease and downplay difficulty.  Of course I also believe people tend to exaggerate the importance of combat, especially adversarial (PvP) combat, in MMO's.  But I agree with your sentiments, DJJazzy.