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Originally posted by Sythion

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Originally posted by Larsa
I'm confused.
Since years I've got the impression that more and more people that don't like RPG mechanics are playing MMORPGs. Looks strange to me, people chosing to play a genre although they don't like the mechanics of it, like slow character progression and levelling up for example.
[...]
So, what is the draw then, why do people that dislike RPG mechanics play an MMORPG?

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First off, those aren't RPG mechanics. I move that you repost this under the title "What draws people that don't like tired, over-used mechanics made to intentionally extend gameplay time to up subscription fee/force the purchase of convenience items into playing MMORPGs."
Second, we see the genre becoming much more.
We're trying to clean up this !#@$hole that you've lived in, not destroy it.

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Just like OP stated... Disposable games.

What is wrong with wanting to sub to a game for years on end? In my opinion, "your cleanup" is the cause for this current mess. Please leave *my* genre alone. I never ASKED for you to clean it up.

Your attitude reminds of the non-smoker in a workplace that HAS to take breaks in the smoker's break area, coughs, and complains, "It's too smoky in here!" MMORPGs were just fine until your kind decided they needed to be "cleaned up."

[EDIT]
I feel the need to ask again, Why play MMORPGs if you think it is a garbage filled genre?

Originally posted by WilyWeasel 

In theory role playing mechanics have nothing to do with rules, they are about story.

 You role play a charactor, as in act the part, therefore the rules have to be flexable to allow the story to take priority. 

If you ever Role play in a PnP game thats the DM's job.. There is no DM in MMORPG's, so in reality, RPG is a joke in computer games cause your role is limited to what skills you have not what your charactor can and cannot actually do :)

Well they're not just about story.  All videogame RPGs over the years have involved twitch-lite (or no-twitch) combat, story, and character/plot development.

Videogame RPGs have never been strongly about tabletop style role-playing.  When players mistake Videogame RPG and Tabletop RPG as the same concept, they end up with some truly bizarre expectations.  Same term ("RPG"), but pretty different meanings.

The MMO part, the massive battles, group content in both PvE and PvP and excitement/drama/frustration that comes with playing a game with many people. 

A single-player RPG is fun for a while, but at most I get 60-80 hours out of them. In most MMOs I enjoy I'll get 60 days just because I can partake in these things with other players.

However I actually am not against progression, I think it is part of MMOs and something that makes you stay for a long time trying to become better than other players both in terms of skill and gear.

Originally posted by Four0Six

WoW had/has over 10 million subs, for a long time.

 

Many Many Many are sheep and will follow the lemings off the cliff.

Or Blizzard made a very fun game and many many many are entertained.

Given Blizzard's track record of making very fun games, this is probably what happened.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Just like OP stated... Disposable games.

What is wrong with wanting to sub to a game for years on end? In my opinion, "your cleanup" is the cause for this current mess. Please leave *my* genre alone. I never ASKED for you to clean it up.

And what is wrong with wanting to play many games, some for a while?

It is NOT *your* genre. You have no claim to it. I have as much right to vote with my dollars of what *i* like as you.

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Just like OP stated... Disposable games.
What is wrong with wanting to sub to a game for years on end? In my opinion, "your cleanup" is the cause for this current mess. Please leave *my* genre alone. I never ASKED for you to clean it up.

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And what is wrong with wanting to play many games, some for a while?
It is NOT *your* genre. You have no claim to it. I have as much right to vote with my dollars of what *i* like as you.

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The logic confounds me. I understand if you don't like something, try to change it. But why change it if you really don't enjoy it? I don't like raisins in my cookies. I DON'T go restaurants and DEMAND they take the raisins out of their oatmeal RAISIN cookies. That's just silly.

I especially don't go to PvP forums and DEMAND that PvP be taken out of a game. I don't go to FPS game sites and DEMAND that there should be levels!

Still, I ask, WHY do you want to play MMORPGs if you don't like the genre?

Ya but why do mmorpg have to be about time invest or slow progression... etc... (not sure what rpg mechanics mean, but you listed those as example). 

There is no definition which says MMORPG have to be about that.

Just like alot of arguments on the forum.  People say CORPG dont' have a room in mmorpg(they need to remove arena, battleground etc from all MMorpg).  But why can't MMORPG have corpg? right?

People saying the FPS crowd is ruining MMORPGs are the ones that ruined MMORPGs with the changes EQ1 brought into it...spend hours to camp a mob hoping to get an item. UO, The Realm, Merdian 59, NWNO...those MMORPGs werent based on cheap gameplay gimmicks.

Time should never equal reward and reward should not equal fun.

Time equal reward is wanted by no life having people that play 40+ hours a week who feel they and only they should be on top.

reward equal fun to those that need a carrot...last time I checked mules were only popular with those too poor to buy a horse, something that didnt need a carrot to do something.

Keep your carrot, ill take something with substance.

Originally posted by Larsa

I'm confused.

Since years I've got the impression that more and more people that don't like RPG mechanics are playing MMORPGs. Looks strange to me, people chosing to play a genre although they don't like the mechanics of it, like slow character progression and levelling up for example.

Now, I can understand that many people don't like RPG mechanics, that's fine, we're all here for our enjoyment, our fun, because it's our hobby, whatever floats your boat. I'm not interested to hear why you don't like RPG mechanics, many threads have been made about it and it's a given that many people don't like the time investment, don't like the slow progression curve, don't like that character skill matters as much or even more than player skill. That's all understood and fine.

But one thing I do not understand: what is it then that draws people to MMORPGs although they don't like the RPG part of it? What is it that draws people to MMOs in general? Aren't there gazillions of other multiplayer games around, in the FPS, DOTA, MOBA genre or whatever the correct acronym is these days? Let's be honest, many of the current MMORPGs have so small instances and battlefields that they almost play like they're a lobby game where you sit in a town and get whisked away into an instance for your gameplay anyway. Nothing massive multiplayer about that I would say.

So, what is the draw then, why do people that dislike RPG mechanics play an MMORPG?

My opinion is that it is the Age of Instant Gratification.  Nobody wants to actually earn anything in a game, nobody wants a challenge.. in fact if they could they would prefer to start out at max level with max gear doing the end game raids for a day.. and then move on to the next game.  Now this is just my opinion but I bet I am not far off from the reality of it.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Clean it up how? Streamlining start to finish? "Winning the game" in a matter of weeks?

 

Just like OP stated... Disposable games.

What is wrong with wanting to sub to a game for years on end? In my opinion, "your cleanup" is the cause for this current mess. Please leave *my* genre alone. I never ASKED for you to clean it up.

Your attitude reminds of the non-smoker in a workplace that HAS to take breaks in the smoker's break area, coughs, and complains, "It's too smoky in here!" MMORPGs were just fine until your kind decided they needed to be "cleaned up."

[EDIT]
I feel the need to ask again, Why play MMORPGs if you think it is a garbage filled genre?

A) Why should anyone care about "Winning the game" in an mmorpg?

B) Improving != Streamlining.

C) WoW is the epitome of what is wrong with the genre, namely because it encourages progressionists such as yourself. You are the ones who made wow successful, and we need to fix your mistakes. WoW is the evolution of a broken start.

[EDIT]

I feel the need to answer again, to encourage up your garbage filled genre to clean up its act.

Originally posted by jtcgs

People saying the FPS crowd is ruining MMORPGs are the ones that ruined MMORPGs with the changes EQ1 brought into it...spend hours to camp a mob hoping to get an item. UO, The Realm, Merdian 59, NWNO...those MMORPGs werent based on cheap gameplay gimmicks.

Time should never equal reward and reward should not equal fun.

Time equal reward is wanted by no life having people that play 40+ hours a week who feel they and only they should be on top.

reward equal fun to those that need a carrot...last time I checked mules were only popular with those too poor to buy a horse, something that didnt need a carrot to do something.

Keep your carrot, ill take something with substance.

That's where GW2 will pick up the slack.  There will be no gear grind and everybody will be equal in the end so it's all based on skill.  And like in GW1, you'll probably be able to buy all the skill packs you need so you don't have to invest any time at all if you don't want to.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Just like OP stated... Disposable games.
What is wrong with wanting to sub to a game for years on end? In my opinion, "your cleanup" is the cause for this current mess. Please leave *my* genre alone. I never ASKED for you to clean it up.

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And what is wrong with wanting to play many games, some for a while?
It is NOT *your* genre. You have no claim to it. I have as much right to vote with my dollars of what *i* like as you.

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I was possibly here before you and enjoyed MY genre until the FPS crowd flooded it, thanks to WoW. Now, YOUR kind don't like the way the genre was and think it needs "improving." LEAVE IT ALONE, is all I am saying. Go play MMOAction games (DragonNest, Vindictus), Lobby based FPSs, MMORTS, what have you.

 

The logic confounds me. I understand if you don't like something, try to change it. But why change it if you really don't enjoy it? I don't like raisins in my cookies. I DON'T go restaurants and DEMAND they take the raisins out of their oatmeal RAISIN cookies. That's just silly.

I especially don't go to PvP forums and DEMAND that PvP be taken out of a game. I don't go to FPS game sites and DEMAND that there should be levels!

Still, I ask, WHY do you want to play MMORPGs if you don't like the genre?

The problem here is that one of you like more traditional RPG's, and the other likes more action or whatever kind of games, the MMO space can and will have games for both people. Obviously it is filled with the more traditional like games currently and will have those in the future too, and now it's expanding more with games like Firefall, a MMOFPS game, and some other titles with more action oriented gameplay. I dont see why you are arguing with eachothers, both wants to play massive multiplayer games within their own sub-genres, and I dont see the reason why one of you should not have the right.

Originally posted by Kuinn

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Just like OP stated... Disposable games.
What is wrong with wanting to sub to a game for years on end? In my opinion, "your cleanup" is the cause for this current mess. Please leave *my* genre alone. I never ASKED for you to clean it up.

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And what is wrong with wanting to play many games, some for a while?
It is NOT *your* genre. You have no claim to it. I have as much right to vote with my dollars of what *i* like as you.

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I was possibly here before you and enjoyed MY genre until the FPS crowd flooded it, thanks to WoW. Now, YOUR kind don't like the way the genre was and think it needs "improving." LEAVE IT ALONE, is all I am saying. Go play MMOAction games (DragonNest, Vindictus), Lobby based FPSs, MMORTS, what have you.

 

The logic confounds me. I understand if you don't like something, try to change it. But why change it if you really don't enjoy it? I don't like raisins in my cookies. I DON'T go restaurants and DEMAND they take the raisins out of their oatmeal RAISIN cookies. That's just silly.

I especially don't go to PvP forums and DEMAND that PvP be taken out of a game. I don't go to FPS game sites and DEMAND that there should be levels!

Still, I ask, WHY do you want to play MMORPGs if you don't like the genre?

 

The problem here is that one of you like more traditional RPG's, and the other likes more action or whatever kind of games, the MMO space can and will have games for both people. Obviously it is filled with the more traditional like games currently and will have those in the future too, and now it's expanding more with games like Firefall, a MMOFPS game, and some other titles with more action oriented gameplay. I dont see why you are arguing with eachothers, both wants to play massive multiplayer games within their own sub-genres, and I dont see the reason why one of you should not have the right.

Unfortunately, the traditional-style MMORPGs that are out there are the same ones that were out there years and years ago. As one of the people who enjoys traditional-style PvE gameplay that doesn't push you along on a set track, doesn't allow you to do anything and everything by yourself, and doesn't zip you to max level in a matter of a few weeks, its a major concern for me as to whether these types of games actually will be available in the future.

I agree that both can coexist. The arguments only occur when one or both sides seems to have the sense of entitlement that only stuff they like should ever be made, or when one notorious poster in this thread whom I wont name directly tries to dictate to the world what everyone *should* enjoy.

There's still a vast market for traditional-style MMOs. Publishers just arent willing to try and capture it, because they're afraid to. It hasn't been proven successful in nearly a decade. It potentially can be, but unless someone makes a new one, it wont get the chance to be.

WoW is leaking subs. A lot of players are getting sick of the style of gameplay it presents. It still has a lot of players, however. Many honestly enjoy the game. Many still continue to play it because the only alternative is one of the many WoW clones out there, and why settle for a clone when you can play the original?

For some it means giving up the genre altogether, which is not good for any style of MMORPG player. The more people flee from the genre as a whole, the more investors will see the genre as a fad thats passed its prime. With that comes a withdrawal of funds and genre slowly implodes.

So yeah, neither side seems to realize just how important the other is to the genre. If it hopes to stay fresh and keep players interested, it needs to diversify, not the other way around.

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Originally posted by Kuinn

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky
 

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Just like OP stated... Disposable games.
What is wrong with wanting to sub to a game for years on end? In my opinion, "your cleanup" is the cause for this current mess. Please leave *my* genre alone. I never ASKED for you to clean it up.

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And what is wrong with wanting to play many games, some for a while?
It is NOT *your* genre. You have no claim to it. I have as much right to vote with my dollars of what *i* like as you.

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I was possibly here before you and enjoyed MY genre until the FPS crowd flooded it, thanks to WoW. Now, YOUR kind don't like the way the genre was and think it needs "improving." LEAVE IT ALONE, is all I am saying. Go play MMOAction games (DragonNest, Vindictus), Lobby based FPSs, MMORTS, what have you.
 
The logic confounds me. I understand if you don't like something, try to change it. But why change it if you really don't enjoy it? I don't like raisins in my cookies. I DON'T go restaurants and DEMAND they take the raisins out of their oatmeal RAISIN cookies. That's just silly.
I especially don't go to PvP forums and DEMAND that PvP be taken out of a game. I don't go to FPS game sites and DEMAND that there should be levels!
Still, I ask, WHY do you want to play MMORPGs if you don't like the genre?

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The problem here is that one of you like more traditional RPG's, and the other likes more action or whatever kind of games, the MMO space can and will have games for both people. Obviously it is filled with the more traditional like games currently and will have those in the future too, and now it's expanding more with games like Firefall, a MMOFPS game, and some other titles with more action oriented gameplay. I dont see why you are arguing with eachothers, both wants to play massive multiplayer games within their own sub-genres, and I dont see the reason why one of you should not have the right.

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Slower pace was not about slower pace. It was about chatting in groups during down times. It was about getting a sandwich and coffee without slowing everyone up.

I call it MY genre because when I started playing it, I enjoyed it. As it was.

• Work for rewards
• Getting immersed in your character, not the numbers
• Discovering the big world the devs created
• Having things to do besides combat
• Making an impact on the world, be it community-wise or the game world itself.
• Wanting to sub for years
• The excitement of combat, not knowing if you'll win for sure or the possibility of a random element popping up (such as additional creatures jumping in)
• Death Penalties hurt. Not only time-wise, but emotionally.

To Sythion:
Since you cannot answer a simple question, I give up with you. You play a game because you hate the mechanics of it. What an intelligent answer! I can see there is no point in debating you.

I learned long ago I am in the minority here. Today's games prove that point.

Originally posted by Sythion

...

First off, those aren't RPG mechanics. I move that you repost this under the title "What draws people that don't like tired, over-used mechanics made to intentionally extend gameplay time to up subscription fee/force the purchase of convenience items into playing MMORPGs."

Second, we see the genre becoming much more.

We're trying to clean up this !#@$hole that you've lived in, not destroy it.

Sounds like you might be one of the players that could answer my original question. Obviously you think of the genre as "tired, over-used mechanics made to intentionally extend gameplay time to up subscription fee" and as "!#@$hole" yet you're here, on an MMORPG forum.

From your post history it's clear that you played at least WoW and SWToR (because you stated so). Thus your're the perfect candidate to answer the question in my original post: What draws you into playing MMORPGs although you think they're a "!#@$hole"?

The people who complain about long progression are generally extreemly competitive and are playing MMOs strickly 'to win' in some kind of sociopatic disorder because they do not understand that whatever the rule system is everyone plays by it and that is unacceptable because they want to win simply because god allowed them to exist and no other reason.

The rest of us play it because there is one aspect or another that is in an MMO that doesnt really exist in a single player game which for me is simply the massive size.

SEANCAD, I think your analysis is completely backwards. People who like "to win" are those who jump on every game's forums complaining about the lack of content and how they "beat the game" in just 6 days with no food or water. They definitely don't want to beat it in 5 days instead.

Anyway, more straightforward answer to OP:

I play MMORPGs for awhile because I see possibilities of entire worlds I can get lost in. The MMO appeal goes beyond that of a single player RPG because the possibility of complex, in game intereactions with other people could make things very interesting. I was hoping the story aspects of SW:ToR would enhance this, but it didn't. Invariably, the games I try to play fall into a grind (quest grind or creature grind, doesn't matter). No one in the world seems to be able to do the most basic things, so I have to do everyone's errands as well as the rare, real quest. It's immersion death far beyond what other people have been complaining about recently on these forums.

All I end up seeing is a bunch of evolved everquest clones, which carry its flaws from iteration to iteration. Then people come on and say stuff like "Why you make games different than EQ? Make more EQ!!! Everygame ever always should be EQ!!!" Snore.

Guess what? You love EQ because the genre was young, because you were not yet cynical and because those you played with were different than those who play now.

If vanilla EQ was released now with great graphics, whatever. The content locusts would still devour it and claim it was too fast, and the game would be just as bad as everything else around. The only people who will enjoy it are socializers who like talking during downtime.

Originally posted by Larsa

I'm confused.

Since years I've got the impression that more and more people that don't like RPG mechanics are playing MMORPGs. Looks strange to me, people chosing to play a genre although they don't like the mechanics of it, like slow character progression and levelling up for example.

Now, I can understand that many people don't like RPG mechanics, that's fine, we're all here for our enjoyment, our fun, because it's our hobby, whatever floats your boat. I'm not interested to hear why you don't like RPG mechanics, many threads have been made about it and it's a given that many people don't like the time investment, don't like the slow progression curve, don't like that character skill matters as much or even more than player skill. That's all understood and fine.

But one thing I do not understand: what is it then that draws people to MMORPGs although they don't like the RPG part of it? What is it that draws people to MMOs in general? Aren't there gazillions of other multiplayer games around, in the FPS, DOTA, MOBA genre or whatever the correct acronym is these days? Let's be honest, many of the current MMORPGs have so small instances and battlefields that they almost play like they're a lobby game where you sit in a town and get whisked away into an instance for your gameplay anyway. Nothing massive multiplayer about that I would say.

So, what is the draw then, why do people that dislike RPG mechanics play an MMORPG?

All I have to say is MMORPGs left when WOW came out and the communities became what they are today. Given that people play MMOs (Action Adventure MMOs) and some people try to RP in these games which you really can't since they are not free enough and have none of the mechanics that make it an RPG.

The question should be why do RPer's keep trying to RP in a MMO? Or why have game companies stopped making MMORPGs? (We know the answer to that.)

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I was possibly here before you and enjoyed MY genre until the FPS crowd flooded it, thanks to WoW. Now, YOUR kind don't like the way the genre was and think it needs "improving." LEAVE IT ALONE, is all I am saying. Go play MMOAction games (DragonNest, Vindictus), Lobby based FPSs, MMORTS, what have you.

 

The logic confounds me. I understand if you don't like something, try to change it. But why change it if you really don't enjoy it? I don't like raisins in my cookies. I DON'T go restaurants and DEMAND they take the raisins out of their oatmeal RAISIN cookies. That's just silly.

I especially don't go to PvP forums and DEMAND that PvP be taken out of a game. I don't go to FPS game sites and DEMAND that there should be levels!

Still, I ask, WHY do you want to play MMORPGs if you don't like the genre?

I enjoy class mechanics, holy trinity fights with boss scripting. I enjoy progression. I enjoy multiplayer.

I have no problem expressing what i like, and vote with my dollars. There is no such thing as a static genre. It is not YOUR genre. There is no fix feature sets for the games. Developers respond to the market and what players like. It is that simple.

I advise you do the same. Complaining about other players speaking their minds get you no where fast. Vote with your dollars like me.