The use of instances is the worst imo (and I hate arenas, and am tired of scenarios also).  EQ ramped it up, and WoW took it and ran with it.  It is ok in very small doses, but those instances are places where mechanics could easily make them not needed.

Seems most dungeons/content where you see other people are getting rare, wheres the massive multiplayer in that, feels more like a co-op.  It so bad now that my wish list is often just for someone to make a mmo with 50% of the dungeons open, which about seems like a pipe dream.

Sure their are bad things with open dungeons, just as their are with scenarios and the boring repeat factor....Open dungeons just seem more alive, dangerous (can be from other players-train or whatever also)...I miss the days of say old EQ, like Karnors Castle, and "train to zone!"...It can be annoying, but in my case, you don't know what you got till its gone...Instances make me snooze.

While I do enjoy arena style gameplay, I agree that instances just defeat the point of an MMO. There is nothing massive about having 10 people in a instance. Hell, there's nothing massive about having 50 people in an instance. Shooters can support up to 64 people maybe even more.

MMOs need big numbers to be considered massive. What a lot of people forget for some reason is that the first two Ms do NOT stand for Massive Multiplayer. It is massiveLY multiplayer. Therefore, the first M does not equal many players. It mean many players in one place.

I think the argument suggesting that battlegrounds themselves are un-fun or bad for MMOs has been fairly well disproven by the majority and by the major success of MMOs such as WoW. There is plenty of reason to dislike instanced pvp without resorting to hyperbole of how terrible something is because you say so. Both open world and instance pvp have a place in MMOs.

The issue I believe is the difference in how pvp is rewarded and the entire pvp gear grind. It is a vicious grind circle that is really unfun to me. You need pvp gear to have an advantage over your opponents. But your same opponents are accumulating the same gear at the same rate. So you have to maximimize your gear-getting rate to get any sort of advantage over your opponent. So you have to use the MOST EFFECIENT WAY TO OBTAIN PVP GEAR. Which means you have to play instance battlegrounds, because the pvp rewards for open pvp are just non-existant.

So you are stuck competing and going head to head against people over and over again in these instanced battlegrounds. Is this because everyone plays nice in the battlegrounds and there's a significant reduction in open world pvp griefing and other things that players MIGHT stop subscribing over?

Either way... I blame the rewards systems and pvp gear grind before I blame the instanced pvp itself. SWTOR WZs were great fun until you started to get into the pvp gear grind. They need pvp for people who... just want to pvp.

Im glad to see people are finally seeing how game-breaking instances and instanced-pvp is.

I've called it years ago, I said by the time the genre has run its course, we will be paying a subscription just to play a fps disguised as a "mmo"

There is no immersion anymore, no sense of danger from world pvp, no thought by devs on HOW to make it work. I am no game developer, but it seems that it is easier to re-hash an old gfx engine and pump out instanced content than it is to write your own engine, or utilize one in an open world format.

I agree as well. Battlegrounds are the most boring type of PVP, and boring type of MMO entertainment.

Battlegrounds don't bother me or affect my level of immersion in a game at all. So I don't agree.

That isn't to say i don't enjoy Open World PvP. Just the argument never held any water whatsoever with me.

Can't stand them much either, but it seems to be the future of PvP in the genre. Solves a lot of the issues people always complain about like making pvp consensual, having equal teams, automated grouping, no time wasted roaming, etc..

I agree that DAoC battlegrounds were perfect, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be what dev's intend to try and implement.

Originally posted by mmoDAD

massive [mas iv] - Extremely large in scale, amount, or degree.

 

What is massive about 8v8 Instanced PvP? What is massive about replaying the same 3-5 small zones over and over again?

 

 

As of now, I feel forced into playing Battlegrounds due to gear incentive. If all rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, how many people do you think would still play them? Would you still play them?

 

Aren't MMOs supposed to be immersive, surprising, and completely unpredictable? None of these characteristics are present in Battlegrounds. Battlegrounds are redundant - a rinse and repeat gear-grind addiction. Battlegrounds are plastic - a cheap and simple way for developers to add Player Vs. Player.

 

 

I remember EverQuest II had an Instanced Arena near the launch of their game. However, it was almost never used. When it was occupied, it was nothing more but a skill-testing experience amung guild mates - the way it should be. It wasn't until they added "Rewards" that the Arenas were played on a daily basis.

 

 

I understand that Battlegrounds are helpful to PvE players. Thus, if Battlegrounds must exist, they should only reside on PvE Servers.

I beleive the problem with MMO's is the fact that they became so gear oriented.

Battlegrounds per se are not necessarilly bad, yes I would prefer open world PvP with proper Conquest mechanics, such as in an RvR game, but when a game is not designed for that the best next thing is Battlegrounds.

Yet there is a caveat to all ofthis, and the caveat is the Gear Progression, as much as fun WoW's battlegrounds may have been (Yay for 19h long AVs), the fact that the game was so much gear oriented at one point made the experience unfun, specially with the introduction of arena and the "better" gear offered through it, all those that disliked arena were shafted, then they made other changes which put the emphasis on Instances and raids, I would have had no problem with it if BG's and Raids had gear on Par with one another, but instead they forced people to do both, and again all those that did not enjoy raiding and prefered only PvP got shafted again.

So I ended up quiting because it simply became unfun. I did not wish to engage in areas which were not fun to me, or not having the option to engage in different areas occasionally with the same gear. having to collect gear for each activity was a major turn off.

So to me the battlegrounds on their own is not an issue, but how battlegrounds fit in the overall game can be an issue when not done properly and segragetes players to one activity of the game.

I beleive Guild Wars 2 is doing things right in that regard, at least on print, we shall really know when it is out, there is some rising concern about microtransactions, again, we shall see whan it all comes out.

Without diverting from the topic however, Ithink that Battlegrounds can be good in Themepark games which have a PvE focus to begin with, and not good for RvR and Sandbox games.

It's all tradeoffs.

Instances: Lose some immersion, gain PVP worth playing.

World: Gain some immersion, have terrible zerg PVP.

The clincher being that most players strongly value high-quality PVP, whereas immersion is a secondary concern.

The real problem with bg:s and arenas is that they totally ruin the virtual world. The game will be a lobby game. Everyone will be waiting in a que for a BG or a arena match to start. If PvE works the same way the world is dead. Stand in a city and wait in a que...

Compared to older games this is terrible. And, IMO, its no longer the same genre. I started to play MMORPGS:s because I wanted to be part of and fight in a virtual world. When the virtual world is dead the game is dead. Or it should at least no longer be called a MMORPG.

Originally posted by Hurvart

The real problem with bg:s and arenas is that they totally ruin the virtual world. The game will be a lobby game. Everyone will be waiting in a que for a BG or a arena match to start. If PvE works the same way the world is dead. Stand in a city and wait in a que...

Compared to older games this is terrible. And, IMO, its no longer the same genre. I started to play MMORPGS:s because I wanted to be part of and fight in a virtual world. When the virtual world is dead the game is dead. Or it should at least no longer be called a MMORPG.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Hurvart

The real problem with bg:s and arenas is that they totally ruin the virtual world. The game will be a lobby game. Everyone will be waiting in a que for a BG or a arena match to start. If PvE works the same way the world is dead. Stand in a city and wait in a que...

Compared to older games this is terrible. And, IMO, its no longer the same genre. I started to play MMORPGS:s because I wanted to be part of and fight in a virtual world. When the virtual world is dead the game is dead. Or it should at least no longer be called a MMORPG.

 

They turn into CORPGs at endgame as there is little reason to exist in the virtual world outside of the city.

So? That seems like a trend.

In fact, it is all about having a nice lobby (city), with a AH, and then have MANY choices of instanced entertainment: dungeons, raids, BG, arenas. Soon there will be scenarios, and pet battles.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Hurvart

The real problem with bg:s and arenas is that they totally ruin the virtual world. The game will be a lobby game. Everyone will be waiting in a que for a BG or a arena match to start. If PvE works the same way the world is dead. Stand in a city and wait in a que...

Compared to older games this is terrible. And, IMO, its no longer the same genre. I started to play MMORPGS:s because I wanted to be part of and fight in a virtual world. When the virtual world is dead the game is dead. Or it should at least no longer be called a MMORPG.

 

They turn into CORPGs at endgame as there is little reason to exist in the virtual world outside of the city.

So? That seems like a trend.

In fact, it is all about having a nice lobby (city), with a AH, and then have MANY choices of instanced entertainment: dungeons, raids, BG, arenas. Soon there will be scenarios, and pet battles.

 

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

 

And so I will welcome the day CORPG.com opens its doors.

Don't bother. MMORPG will mean that the future.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

 

And so I will welcome the day CORPG.com opens its doors.

Don't bother. MMORPG will mean that the future.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

 

And so I will welcome the day CORPG.com opens its doors.

Don't bother. MMORPG will mean that the future.

 

Then I will welcome the day VWRPG.com opens its doors.

Not a bad term. In fact, dividing MMORPG into sub genres (just like CRPG has ARPG, SRPG and JRPG) is not a bad idea. At least we can avoid silly "naming" arguments.

Originally posted by RefMinor
Battlegrounds are for those without the twitch skills to succeed in FPS and the social skills to gain allies to survive in open world PvP. It's kind of like riding a bike with stabilisers, no skill, no danger, but the child ends up with a smile.

Ha. Well put.

Anywho, when the infection first arrived in Azeroth, my spidey senses flew off the chart. I remember a RL friend explaining the whole concept to me as we sipped on a few pints at the pub (I didn't visit internet forums back then, so news came quite a bit slower). I just couldn't understand how such a lifeless system (which works great in other genres such as RTS/FPS) could even be considered in a genre with such incredible potential. I thought: "how fucking cheap!" I gave it a shot nonetheless, but ultimately, Battlegrounds ended up being the reason I left WOW. A game that, up until then, I was enjoying the hell out of. The death of the "world" of Warcraft was imminent to me at that point.  

Instanced BGs and arenas are a lazy and destructive feature that have no place in this genre. There's a reason I can hardly ever spend more than an hour at a time playing even the best of FPS games. It's cheap quick fun that becomes stale unfortunately fast. Great for when I have little time, but nothing remotely in the neighbourhood of what I'm looking for when I fire up an MMO. This genre can be so much more than fun, fun, fun, wipe laughing drool from my chin, fun, fun, fun. Not that there`s anything wrong with that, just not in such a notable and limitless genre.

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by RefMinor
Battlegrounds are for those without the twitch skills to succeed in FPS and the social skills to gain allies to survive in open world PvP. It's kind of like riding a bike with stabilisers, no skill, no danger, but the child ends up with a smile.

Ha. Well put.

Anywho, when the infection first arrived in Azeroth, my spidey senses flew off the chart. I remember a RL friend explaining the whole concept to me as we sipped on a few pints at the pub (I didn't visit internet forums back then, so news came quit a bit slower). I just couldn't understand how such a lifeless system (which works great in other genres such as RTS/FPS) could even be considered in a genre with such incredible potential. I thought: "how fucking cheap!" I gave it a shot nonetheless, but ultimately, Battlegrounds ended up being the reason I left WOW. A game that, up until then, I was enjoying the hell out of. The death of the "world" of Warcraft was imminent to me at that point.  

Instanced BGs and arenas are a lazy and destructive feature that have no place in this genre. There's a reason I can hardly ever spend more than hour at a time playing even the best of FPS games. It's cheap quick fun that becomes stale unfortunately fast. Great for when I have little time, but nothing remotely in the neighbourhood of what I'm looking for when I fire up an MMO. This genre can be so much more than fun, fun, fun, wipe laughing drool from my chin, fun, fun, fun. Not that there`s anything wrong with that, just not in such a notable and limitless genre.

 

 

They should have made the battlegrounds more about open world pvp objective based than stuff them in another instance.  But this will ultimately be a hamster wheel in the end also, so it really just depends on if the world has enough tools to allow you to immerse yourself in it.  I do agree that instanced battlegrounds took away from the massive feel of the population in the server, even instanced dungeons have this same effect.  I believe Vanguard Saga of Heroes has open world dungeons, I am not sure if other games have this feature.

Ya so everyone hate battlegrounds, so why dont' they just go out to the world to kill each other instead of doing battle ground?

The reality is alot of people "dont' mind" battleground, not necessary they like battleground more than world pvp, but are just sick of trying to find people outside of battleground, or getting into unfair battle.