What amazes me is that they're going to sell us a 60 dollar box for a free2play, not b2p game and otherwise(one has to assume)reasonable adults are defending them to the hilt. They are PR gurus I need to hire these guys for my company's PR efforts. They have mastered the art of pissing on our backs and telling us its raining and making people believe.

I want you to think about it that cash shop was very similar to cash shops in many f2p titles, except those titles have the decency to not hit you for a box at least, and over 1/2 the people in this thread are busy defending them.....balls deep.

Originally posted by KingGator

What amazes me is that they're going to sell us a 60 dollar box for a free2play, not b2p game and otherwise(one has to assume)reasonable adults are defending them to the hilt. They are PR gurus I need to hire these guys for my company's PR efforts. They have mastered the art of pissing on our backs and telling us its raining and making people believe.

 

I want you to think about it that cash shop was very similar to cash shops in many f2p titles, except those titles have the decency to not hit you for a box at least, and over 1/2 the people in this thread are busy defending them.....balls deep.

Agree.  The cash shop is a disgrace and on the level of a F2P.  It is my single biggest issue with the game.  I have some other disagreements on design choices, but prior to the cash shop leaks I had been on/off the bandwagon multiple times.

The cash shop, and their recent "manifesto" verbage changes regarding it, lowers my chances of ever buying this game to ZERO.

Yeah if there's less to do why are you playing? Just give them the money and watch tv or something. I agree with the OP thread title.

Who cares anymore, everyone now has made up their mind on this cash shop. Either you are fine with it, or you are not going to play the game because of it, either way, i doubt endless posts on whats P2W or GW2 CS is going to change ANet's idea, so just let this topic die out already and when we get ingame then we can re-bicker about it. other than that, it's a lame ass excuse to not play a game :)

Originally posted by KingGator

What amazes me is that they're going to sell us a 60 dollar box for a free2play, not b2p game and otherwise(one has to assume)reasonable adults are defending them to the hilt. They are PR gurus I need to hire these guys for my company's PR efforts. They have mastered the art of pissing on our backs and telling us its raining and making people believe.

I want you to think about it that cash shop was very similar to cash shops in many f2p titles, except those titles have the decency to not hit you for a box at least, and over 1/2 the people in this thread are busy defending them.....balls deep.

I can't say that I likethe shop myself, but it is far from the worst one.

Heck, when EQ2 introduced cashshops into P2P games a few years back it already had worse stuff in it, and that for a monthly fee.

RMT is a huge problem in modern games and the only way to be rid of it is really to download the game illegally... Which of course isn't a good solution either.

Many of the P2P games uses RMTs for a lot of different stuff. Funny enough is the oldest one, server transfer, free in GW2. There is really only one way to get rid of this crap: to never buy anything in a ingame shop except in F2P games.

This is not a GW2 issue though, ME3, Wow and most other games of all types have it now. my friggin CIV 5 demands a rather huge sum for me to get one of the extra civs they added. And the prices are outragous. An expansion for a game usually cost 40 bucks here and that is loads of content. If they instead releases it in pieces for the item shop they get 20 times that sum if you want to buy all of it.¨

The whole thing ¤%& me off a lot. But GW2 is still one of the better games as far as RMTs goes. I plan to buy it but I also plan to never buy a single jewel in it, as I do in all games that aren't F2P. I never bought anything in my 5 years of playing GW either.

Once upon a time MMORPGs were about finding a like minded group of player who had similar goals and would work together in game to reach these goals.

Today MMORPGs are about having a RL job to buy anything you need to get to level cap as fast as possible and look the most badass so you can get to the PEW PEW faster and quit the game a month later.

GG mmorpgs you were fun while it lasted

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Boneserino

Originally posted by Interesting

Originally posted by Ceridith

RPGs are about character progression. You win by progressing your character and completing content in order to move onto the next content. Paying extra to expediate character progression or bypass content is therefore paying to win.

 

This is so obvious, I think you put in the most concise possible way.

 

 

ON TOPIC:

People, time skippers and time savers are not based only on leveling. So stop restricting my point. My point is about anything advertised as convenience for people who dont have time, either material or subjective. Also, Guild Wars 2 is only the 100th+ game that came with this, dont belittle the thread or deviate from the main point. Counter the main point if you can.

Except that it is so obviously wrong!!   You win by progressing??  At exactly what point do you win?  And who is losing?

When it comes to timesavers, such as exp boosts (in a PvE game)  there is no advantage gained whatsoever.  A 10% exp boost means Player 1 has to kill 9 rats instead of 10.  So what ? Player 1 has defeated player 2 because he defeated his 9 rats faster than Player 2 defeated his 10?  

What if Player 1 only has time to kill 8 rats before logging off (the wife is bitching at him because he has to cut the grass!)and Player 2 goes on and kills all 10 of his rats and then follows that up by killing 10 fierce bunnies as well?  Has Player 2 now won? 

It is not pay to win because clearly, "progressing" is not "winning"  despite what you say.  It is simply progressing.  

What you have OP, and many others here it seems, is a big case of sour grapes.  Lets say the bonuses are limited to 20%.   And that would be high I think.  That means if it takes the fastest player 5 weeks to max level, it would take you 6 weeks, playing at the same rate.  Hardly worth crying over is it?   Oh and yes, he won!!  If the two of you had a bet on who would get there first, that is.

I am really starting to think that they need to come up with some new MMO's for all the type A personalities here in these forums.   One where every player starts at the exact same time, and the first one to reach  max level is declared Lord Emperor and gets to individually behead all the other players!  Then we would have a winner!!

Then please enlighten me, what exactly is the purpose of playing an RPG?

For fun? Okay, how do you have fun?

Do you have fun when you gain levels, your character becoming more powerful, getting more hitpoints, stats, skills, etc?

Do you have fun when you beat a dungeon and come out with a shiny new item that makes your character more powerful?

Do you get a sense of accomplishment for beating a difficult encounter with your character you worked hard on leveling and gearing up?

Those things are all about progression, and you have fun because you are 'winning' within the design of the game. Without progression in RPGs, you don't have much of a game left. In fact, if you completely removed any sense of progression, most people would quickly lose interest and simply not play.

And similarly, if any schmuck can just whip out his credit card and pay to bypass or expediate progression in any way, it devalues the accomplishment of progression of all other players.

You may not be bothered by 'convenience' and 'bypass' items, but there are many people who are. If you honestly hate grinding in MMORPGs so much that you're willing to pay to skip the entire point of the game, progression, then maybe you're looking into the wrong genre of gaming.

Once again Ceredith I will ask you.  Who is keeping score?  Is it you? or the other guy?

Its like playing a round of golf.  If you and your buddies are playing the game, then scores might matter to you.   But do you really care what the other 99% of  players on the course are doing?  And does it matter that Joe Blow on the 18th hole has shot a better round than you because he just happened to go out and buy the best clubs available, thereby giving him the edge? Personally I could care less and the majority of us "casual" players feel the same.  What all you "Hardcore" players seem to forget is that these games are not designed for you!! They are designed to appeal to everyone.  And since you don't want to be just part of the crowd, then you probably need to look for your niche game, the one that gives you everything you want.  Good luck with that!

I mean seriously, if you consider MMO's to be hyper-competitive events, then why aren't you out there buying the best equipment?   Thats what the pros do!  Oh thats right, you are too cheap!  And sometimes the guys with lesser equipment still manage to win. Go figure!?

If thats not the way you feel, then just stop whining and play the damn game for fun.  Like the other 99% are doing.

Bump for truth

Also to try and dispel this stupid cash shops are OK cos time = money argument. 

How comes this argument never existed before the GW2 Fanboy Mafia realised that people were calling their game Pay 2 Win. Because its a load of crap. Talk about desperation. 

As the OP said, ANY FORM OF CASH SHOP IS BAD, and absolutely NO-ONE would have disagreed with this until ANet said that there would be one in GW2. 

Stop blindly beleiving everything ANet tells you to beleive and actually analyse the facts. 

Funny enough, the people complaining about time skipper cash shop items are the ones who have absolutely jack shit to do in their lives - except of course to spend every waking hour into the MMO.

These guys are of course then jealous of the others who can then choose to have a life outside of the game and still keep up with them by spending a few bucks.

Get a life. Get money. Get more fun out of games. Simple.

Originally posted by Ceridith

 

Then please enlighten me, what exactly is the purpose of playing an RPG?

For fun? Okay, how do you have fun?

Do you have fun when you gain levels, your character becoming more powerful, getting more hitpoints, stats, skills, etc?

Do you have fun when you beat a dungeon and come out with a shiny new item that makes your character more powerful?

Do you get a sense of accomplishment for beating a difficult encounter with your character you worked hard on leveling and gearing up?

Those things are all about progression, and you have fun because you are 'winning' within the design of the game. Without progression in RPGs, you don't have much of a game left. In fact, if you completely removed any sense of progression, most people would quickly lose interest and simply not play.

And similarly, if any schmuck can just whip out his credit card and pay to bypass or expediate progression in any way, it devalues the accomplishment of progression of all other players.

You may not be bothered by 'convenience' and 'bypass' items, but there are many people who are. If you honestly hate grinding in MMORPGs so much that you're willing to pay to skip the entire point of the game, progression, then maybe you're looking into the wrong genre of gaming.

A reasonable price to pay, so to speak, for those who are playing the game for FREE. Many will play a free fun game, if the price is a bit of the fun being taken out by someone else using money to gain an advantage.

Plus, if the point of playing a RPG is to beat a certain encounter (or dungeon), and if you cannot even go to the dungeon with a certain level (or gear), then it makes perfect sense, with respect to this "point", to pay some money to speed things up so one can go to that dungoen FASTER.

If the game is designed this way, who you are to say it is not good when BOTH developers and players agree.

Originally posted by tom_gore

Funny enough, the people complaining about time skipper cash shop items are the ones who have absolutely jack shit to do in their lives - except of course to spend every waking hour into the MMO.

These guys are of course then jealous of the others who can then choose to have a life outside of the game and still keep up with them by spending a few bucks.

 

Get a life. Get money. Get more fun out of games. Simple.

 

Wrong, I have a career, a family, and like to play mmos(I don't watch tv so its games or reading for me when I am home, that 3 hours a night you spend watching tv is jsut as pathetic as the 2 I spend playing a pc game)

Ironically I am one that could really, really, really win in a p2w game(i have disposable income), but to me why play the game if you're going to approach it that way? Listen, I don't know if they're heading to pay to win, but I know this the cash shop that was leaked.............that was straight out of serveral f2p games I've seen. You guys can fool yourselves if you want, I know some of you have a corporate bromance with arena net, but this is what it is. A f2p cash sho(unless they change it)with a box you gotta drop 60 bucks on. i started off kind of neutral, like I'll wait and see because the game actually does look dope minus the CS, but the more I read about, the more you guys defend the indefensible, the more I realize i need to wait for Copernicus. :)

Originally posted by KingGator

What amazes me is that they're going to sell us a 60 dollar box for a free2play, not b2p game and otherwise(one has to assume)reasonable adults are defending them to the hilt. They are PR gurus I need to hire these guys for my company's PR efforts. They have mastered the art of pissing on our backs and telling us its raining and making people believe.

 

I want you to think about it that cash shop was very similar to cash shops in many f2p titles, except those titles have the decency to not hit you for a box at least, and over 1/2 the people in this thread are busy defending them.....balls deep.

 We will have to wait and see what is in the final cash shop, but you seem to leave some stuff out, like WoW makes you buy and pay a sub...AND they have a cash shop...So shouldn't your anger be really high on them, as well as others doing the same?

Also, is GW2 going to be better than your average f2p at release game (not counting anything that was p2p at release, as they spent more money hoping to get money back in subs)?  I sure hope it will be, so if the game is better, I don't mind paying for it...

I prefer subs myself, this will be my first b2p, and non-sub mmo (not counting GW1, as I don't consider it a real mmo). 

I think I will like GW2, I may not, who knows...But I also see the difference in initial quality verse your average f2p game that people have been spewing this argument about...

Originally posted by KingGator

Wrong, I have a career, a family, and like to play mmos(I don't watch tv so its games or reading for me when I am home, that 3 hours a night you spend watching tv is jsut as pathetic as the 2 I spend playing a pc game)

 

Ironically I am one that could really, really, really win in a p2w game(i have disposable income), but to me why play the game if you're going to approach it that way? Listen, I don't know if they're heading to pay to win, but I know this the cash shop that was leaked.............that was straight out of serveral f2p games I've seen. You guys can fool yourselves if you want, I know some of you have a corporate bromance with arena net, but this is what it is. A f2p cash sho(unless they change it)with a box you gotta drop 60 bucks on. i started off kind of neutral, like I'll wait and see because the game actually does look dope minus the CS, but the more I read about, the more you guys defend the indefensible, the more I realize i need to wait for Copernicus. :)

For what it's worth KingGator I agree with you. I've a family, house, money and am a fan of arenanet and NCSoft games but hmm I'm on the wait and see how it turns out list for now definately.  I've not heard of Copernicus before now but it looks very interesting thanks for the info :)

It may sound like I am defending Anet but really I am just defending the argument that time save items don't make a whit of difference in who "wins" the game.   But if  paying for convenience is cheating or causing you to lose sleep at night, then fine, I understand.   For me, life is too short to worry about that sort of crap.

But I agree with Gator that selling the box and then adding a cash shop smacks of a B2P/F2P hybrid.  Not exactly what I was expecting and I would just as soon prefer it without.

At least they are being upfront in a way as some like LoTR have started this way as subs and gone F2P.  Same thing really although I don't endorse this either.  Its just way gaming is going these days.

As for the boxes? in GW2 I have been playing STO  recently and they have been doing the box drop thing and selling keys.  Have I bought any?  No.  Has it affected my gaming experience? No.  And the reason is.....wait for it.....  because I am not trying to "WIN" the game!!! LOL   Now if I was, I suppose I would have to buy those keys.

In any case, it seems to me that simply selling boxes won't provide the needed revenue that Anet desires.  So they could have gone sub but chose this way instead.   Sad for sub fans I understand, but its a business decision for Anet and they obviously feel that it is best for their game and their customers.   Those who disagree will obviously vote with their wallets as Gator did and thats fine.   You just can't please everyone folks, simple as that.

Originally posted by Melangel

Originally posted by KingGator

Wrong, I have a career, a family, and like to play mmos(I don't watch tv so its games or reading for me when I am home, that 3 hours a night you spend watching tv is jsut as pathetic as the 2 I spend playing a pc game)

 

Ironically I am one that could really, really, really win in a p2w game(i have disposable income), but to me why play the game if you're going to approach it that way? Listen, I don't know if they're heading to pay to win, but I know this the cash shop that was leaked.............that was straight out of serveral f2p games I've seen. You guys can fool yourselves if you want, I know some of you have a corporate bromance with arena net, but this is what it is. A f2p cash sho(unless they change it)with a box you gotta drop 60 bucks on. i started off kind of neutral, like I'll wait and see because the game actually does look dope minus the CS, but the more I read about, the more you guys defend the indefensible, the more I realize i need to wait for Copernicus. :)

For what it's worth KingGator I agree with you. I've a family, house, money and am a fan of arenanet and NCSoft games but hmm I'm on the wait and see how it turns out list for now definately.  I've not heard of Copernicus before now but it looks very interesting thanks for the info :)

They've been very secretive about copernicus, there is very little information out yet they insist it is "further along than any of you could imagine" tenative release date is dec 2012ish. I love the talent they assembled to develope this thing and I love that Curt Schilling(you're a brit so it probably should be noted he was a pitcher for the red sox for years althoguh why i find that important is beyond me), an avid gamer, is the guy who started the company.

Originally posted by Boneserino

It may sound like I am defending Anet but really I am just defending the argument that time save items don't make a whit of difference in who "wins" the game.   But if  paying for convenience is cheating or causing you to lose sleep at night, then fine, I understand.   For me, life is too short to worry about that sort of crap.

But I agree with Gator that selling the box and then adding a cash shop smacks of a B2P/F2P hybrid.  Not exactly what I was expecting and I would just as soon prefer it without.

At least they are being upfront in a way as some like LoTR have started this way as subs and gone F2P.  Same thing really although I don't endorse this either.  Its just way gaming is going these days.

As for the boxes? in GW2 I have been playing STO  recently and they have been doing the box drop thing and selling keys.  Have I bought any?  No.  Has it affected my gaming experience? No.  And the reason is.....wait for it.....  because I am not trying to "WIN" the game!!! LOL   Now if I was, I suppose I would have to buy those keys.

In any case, it seems to me that simply selling boxes won't provide the needed revenue that Anet desires.  So they could have gone sub but chose this way instead.   Sad for sub fans I understand, but its a business decision for Anet and they obviously feel that it is best for their game and their customers.   Those who disagree will obviously vote with their wallets as Gator did and thats fine.   You just can't please everyone folks, simple as that.

It isn't about winning for me, at least not totally, but my problem is, and you may find this silly but it is what it is; that I don't want realn world economic(spending)power to become a source of power in my fantasy world. Sub provides a level playing field, people buy gold yes, but its outside channels and nto offiicially sanctioned, the cash shop just......................sullies a game for me. I know dorky, but that's how i feel about it.

Originally posted by Foncl

Originally posted by fissehans

So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?

I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.

TIME IS MONEY.

So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?

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Nothing in the cash shop is exclusive to people with a major in finance. How exactly will it help you catch up to people who have more time and use time convenience items ontop of that?

Once he gets to level 80 he won't have to worry.

I'd see if when you hit 80 you can keep getting things that make you stronger. 

That's not the case in GW 2 lol.

Originally posted by KingGator

Originally posted by Boneserino

 

It isn't about winning for me, at least not totally, but my problem is, and you may find this silly but it is what it is; that I don't want realn world economic(spending)power to become a source of power in my fantasy world. Sub provides a level playing field, people buy gold yes, but its outside channels and nto offiicially sanctioned, the cash shop just......................sullies a game for me. I know dorky, but that's how i feel about it.

And you know I agree with that too.  Cash shops in games in general, just add a whole level of confusion to the game and probably advantages, big and small, in many cases too.   The idea of playing a game that simply is what it is, is very appealing.   The problem with subs is that you are paying even when you are not playing.   Call me dorky but thats how I feel about that too. 

Now if only they could make a sub based game that kept track of how much you played and charged you accordingly,  then I think you would have the best payment system and probably we would all be happy !

Why should you have an advantage over me because you have time to play the unacceptably long amount of hours many of these games require?

Cheater. (not sarcasm).

Time-skippers

Well we aint getting any younger are we XD