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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Battlegrounds is the most non-immersive feature to hit MMOs.

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64 posts found
  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1260

 
OP  3/27/12 9:29:34 AM#1
massive [mas iv] - Extremely large in scale, amount, or degree.
 
What is massive about 8v8 Instanced PvP? What is massive about replaying the same 3-5 small zones over and over again?
 
 
As of now, I feel forced into playing Battlegrounds due to gear incentive. If all rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, how many people do you think would still play them? Would you still play them?
 
Aren't MMOs supposed to be immersive, surprising, and completely unpredictable? None of these characteristics are present in Battlegrounds. Battlegrounds are redundant - a rinse and repeat gear-grind addiction. Battlegrounds are plastic - a cheap and simple way for developers to add Player Vs. Player.
 
 
I remember EverQuest II had an Instanced Arena near the launch of their game. However, it was almost never used. When it was occupied, it was nothing more but a skill-testing experience amung guild mates - the way it should be. It wasn't until they added "Rewards" that the Arenas were played on a daily basis.
 
 
I understand that Battlegrounds are helpful to PvE players. Thus, if Battlegrounds must exist, they should only reside on PvE Servers.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

3/27/12 9:31:59 AM#2
Agree battlegrounds (and arena) are the single worst feature to hit mmos in the last 10 years

By this I mean wow style, no problem with the persistent style bgs from daoc.
  gainesvilleg

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/11
Posts: 1087

3/27/12 9:34:04 AM#3
Originally posted by mmoDAD
massive [mas iv] - Extremely large in scale, amount, or degree.
 
What is massive about 8v8 Instanced PvP? What is massive about replaying the same 3-5 small zones over and over again?
 
 
As of now, I feel forced into playing Battlegrounds due to gear incentive. If all rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, how many people do you think would still play them? Would you still play them?
 
Aren't MMOs supposed to be immersive, surprising, and completely unpredictable? None of these characteristics are present in Battlegrounds. Battlegrounds are redundant - a rinse and repeat gear-grind addiction. Battlegrounds are plastic - a cheap and simple way for developers to add Player Vs. Player.
 
 
I remember EverQuest II had an Instanced Arena near the launch of their game. However, it was almost never used. When it was occupied, it was nothing more but a skill-testing experience amung guild mates - the way it should be. It wasn't until they added "Rewards" that the Arenas were played on a daily basis.
 
 
I understand that Battlegrounds are helpful to PvE players. Thus, if Battlegrounds must exist, they should only reside on PvE Servers.

I have already decided I will never again play an instanced battleground in an MMO.  The reality is, instanced MMO battlegrounds are vastly inferior to FPS games, so why bother with the low-rent MMO version of them.  I've listed in another thread before the MANY areas that a modern FPS is vastly superior to the current implementation of MMO battlegrounds.  I won't rehash it here, but MMO battlegrounds are basically stepping back in time to a mid 1990's FPS.

I won't give any more lazy MMO developers who focus on battlegrounds any more money.  Open world PVP MMO is the only game I will buy moving forward in the MMO genre.  The modern FPS makes MMO battlegrounds look utterly pathetic.

GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements

  sirphobos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 601

3/27/12 9:34:44 AM#4

I think the same argument could be made for instances in general, not just battlegrounds / warfronts / warzones / arenas.

  Interesting

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/08
Posts: 959

3/27/12 9:36:13 AM#5

Why dont we make a poll. I suggest these:

Instances

Inability to attack other players anywhere.

Auction Houses

Fast Travel

 

 

Each one of these hit a specific type of player, Achiever, Explorer, Killer, Socializer.

  WereLlama

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/13/12
Posts: 202

3/27/12 12:21:45 PM#6

I thought there was a growing popularity for instanced pvp battles.  Isee more and more games that allow people individually and in teams fight each other.

I imagine they represent a familiar area where players can learn strategies, and not just contingencies, as they battle other players.   

Besides, many games have tried open PvP and unless its an investment to engage someone, madmax-ish mobs of players quickly rule the land, and majority of players quit in droves. When they quit, the mobs end up quitting soon after.

True, open PvP is more realistic, but it requires a great deal of sandbox like defense building to create the temporary security that all players want.

Ask any vet, they dont want to fight every day.  They want to go somewhere, enage the enemy, then get the hell out of there to a safe location where they can celebrate, mourn their losses, and heal up.

Stress is only fun in short intervals.

-Blitz

  User Deleted
3/27/12 12:30:29 PM#7

I disagree. Cash shops and esport pvp are the most immersion breaking plagues to hit mmos.

  Wolvards

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/12
Posts: 674

3/27/12 12:42:42 PM#8

I disagree to a point, Instanced PvP i hate, and the one that really gave the the grudge was SW, but battle grounds i like, cause when i hear battlegrounds (or read) i think of DAoC battlegrounds, i know i refrence DAoC a lot but their PvP system is amazing, so every 5 levels you entered a new battleground, and i can think of 4 in general that were LOADED full of people, early lion's den, lvl 5-9, Thidranki, 20-24, Molvik, 35-39, and Leirvik, 40-44, now with these your character had new skills, new abilities, so it was really a way to test your toon, lion's den was just the basics, hey im a warrior, or healer, or stealther. Then Thid was more, ok, now i kinda get a REAL taste for my class, minus the Realm Ability stuff, get better stealth, Better Counter Styles, more suppression or Dps spells, more of a mix, Molvik took that a step further, BUT all the assasins could climb walls, so that changed the entire feel, and leirvik added in some REAL Realm Abilities (kill enemies, get realm points, rank up realm rank, spend points on realm abilities). I HATE instanced PvP, but a level based Battleground is AWESOME, it really allows you to test your toon. Think of it as WvWvW in GW2 but for certain levels, and one small keep in the center, so it's smaller, more action packed, but NOT instanced to where its this 8 vs that 8, over, and over, yes it's the same "map" but never the same "scenario"

The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/27/12 1:07:30 PM#9

The good in instances far outweigh the bad. Respawing mobs and static world are the most immersion breaking thing in MMOs imo.

EDIT: By static world I mean that you can save a damsel in distress and she'll be in trouble again the second you turn in the quest.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

3/27/12 1:47:00 PM#10
Originally posted by gainesvilleg
 

I have already decided I will never again play an instanced battleground in an MMO.  The reality is, instanced MMO battlegrounds are vastly inferior to FPS games, so why bother with the low-rent MMO version of them.  I've listed in another thread before the MANY areas that a modern FPS is vastly superior to the current implementation of MMO battlegrounds.  I won't rehash it here, but MMO battlegrounds are basically stepping back in time to a mid 1990's FPS.

I won't give any more lazy MMO developers who focus on battlegrounds any more money.  Open world PVP MMO is the only game I will buy moving forward in the MMO genre.  The modern FPS makes MMO battlegrounds look utterly pathetic.

Nah .. a lot of the FPS are just running and shooting. I would MUCH rather play a BG where i can use different class skills.

In fact, I will go queue a BG now.

  Rohn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3739

3/27/12 1:51:03 PM#11

I'll agree.  Instanced battlegrounds, and to a degree, instances in general damage the virtual world feel of a game, killing immersion.

I won't say that nothing in a game should be instanced, but because they take players out of the world (defeating the purpose of a massive world and playerbase), they should be used very judiciously, instead of being the focus of MMORPGs, which is what they have become in most themepark games.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  Xexv

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/11
Posts: 310

3/27/12 2:40:59 PM#12

Same as others, when I hear Battlegrounds I think of Thid & Molvik. Where did we go wrong?

Xexv Xfire Miniprofile
  Dragonantis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/16/10
Posts: 970

3/27/12 2:44:29 PM#13

I miss looking over my shoulder every few mins to see if im about to be ganked, World PvP isnt the same in any game anymore, but I must say its very much alive in DCUO, people drop outta the sky to kill you XD

As for BG's I do agree, but they are the only real source of fast PvP we can get :(.

  Wolvards

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/12
Posts: 674

3/27/12 2:47:49 PM#14

IMO it's Warhammer, WoW, and SW:TOR for a few examples of where we went wrong :) i'm fine with a que'd battle ground of a max of 12v12 or 8v8 or whatever # as a max, BUT let the players that want a more "open world" feeling, an instanced area with no cap to it, no ending to it, just, killing eachother with a center objective, i know it isnt actualy "open world" but it's not a set number. and of course it would be instanced, but everyone should be able to get into that ONE instance.

The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.

  Cthulhu23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/11
Posts: 1027

3/27/12 2:49:00 PM#15

Let's put it this way:  Anything that involves waiting in a queue and then being teleported to an instance is immersion-breaking. This goes for battlegrounds AND the LFG tool.  Both have their reasons for existing, but both are HORRIBLE for immersion and community-bulding.  

 

 

  Banquetto

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1026

3/27/12 3:00:21 PM#16


Originally posted by BlitzVF
I thought there was a growing popularity for instanced pvp battles.

There is. It's because a lot more people want to be entertained by their Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing GAME than want to be "immersed in a virtual world". And don't the virtual world minority hate that fact!?

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

3/27/12 3:02:51 PM#17

I'm with you.  Unfortunately the trend isn't going to change any time soon.

Look at upcoming games like TERA where the whole political system revolves around the arena and open world PvP will mean nothing.

The only game out there that I consider truely "massive" is Eve.  One server, no instances, no arenas / battlegrounds and you're not completely safe unless you're docked.

 

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

3/27/12 3:05:29 PM#18
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by BlitzVF
I thought there was a growing popularity for instanced pvp battles.


There is. It's because a lot more people want to be entertained by their Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing GAME than want to be "immersed in a virtual world". And don't the virtual world minority hate that fact!?

 

I don't want to be "immersed in a virtual world" either.  I want large scale wars that are not in a sterile predictable environment with predetermined sides and an arbitrary objective that has no meaning outside the battlegrounds.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

3/27/12 3:05:40 PM#19

Agreed & amen.

Single worse mmorpg pvp aspect ever (together with Arenas and similar pvp in a can scenarios).

Devs can easily build insta-pvp solutions on a more natural, open and massive scale like WvWvW in gw2 or what Illum was supposed to bring in Swtor, sadly both games (and most others) still feel the need to fulfill that "battleground obligation" in addition.

edit: WAR was a tragic example: a world full of RVR areas and still adding a range of battlegrounds with great rewards to soak up half of the pvp' ing player base ... how silly was that? :- /

I guess they are all convinced that us players really expect them. V_V

Problem with BG's? If they aren't rewarding enough noone will play them so they will always be very worthwhile and subsequently locking up a big chunk of the player base in repetitive, instanced pvp. Players will then cry for more and more rewards to justify their mindnumbing grind.

It's a cheap, repetitive, unimmersive and unnatural form of pvp for mmorpgs and I would welcome the day when developers finally get that.

In regards to Swtor I wish Bioware would have developed Ilum before they went and put resources and time into battlegrounds instead of what they did; adding the massive, more open kind of pvp as an afterthought ... (and failing badly at it).

edit: one of the great aspects of EVE: it doesn't have BG's, thank god. (Except for the yearly alliance tournament that is).

 

 

  Ankur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/12
Posts: 340

3/27/12 3:08:23 PM#20
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by BlitzVF
I thought there was a growing popularity for instanced pvp battles.


There is. It's because a lot more people want to be entertained by their Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing GAME than want to be "immersed in a virtual world". And don't the virtual world minority hate that fact!?

 

yeah i also get a feeling from playing various MMOS that players enjoy battlegrounds, i myself enjoy them on ocassion. Even though i am mostly  PVE guy. Battlegrounds are popular and i don't see them going anywhere in future.

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