First thing, you need to know what a Kickstarter is to repply to this thread.

So I will briefly explain it to you: Kickstarter is a new continent on the internet, that is growing rapidly. The premise of it is that it allows people to ask other people money to fund their ideas. They post their idea the best way they can and inform how much money do they need to fund the project and other people come and decide if they like it and if they want to help them, and how much money they want to donate.  That is basically it. This bypass the need for other intermediaries, such as publishers, wich allows the developers (guy with the project) to remain independent.

So far 2 games have received overwhelming support.

Two single player games, Wastelander 2 acquired 1.5 million dollars in 9 days of public funding, while Double Fine's Adventure game raised over 3.3 million dollars within a month.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure

If there is demand for a sandbox MMORPGs, but game companies, publishers and investors are not willing to "take the risk". would kickstarter projects make Sandbox MMORPGs make our dreams come true and show us the actual demand for this MMORPG design philosophy? (to settle the long debate, do sandbox never get made because there is no demand, or there is no demand because they never got made right?)

Would kickstarter projects for Sandbox MMORPGs be a genial idea? (obvious rethoric question, bait) What would a Sandbox MMORPG project be able to raise? (rethoric question)

What company would have the best chances at it? What setting and theme? When will we start seing the first attempts? More importantly, how it would change the industry?

It's an interesting idea. But honestly, I doubt whether Kickstarter can generate the quantities of cash to really create a quality game. That said, I think it is an excellent idea for supplementary funding, but I dont think the user/donation base exists on Kickstarter to fully fund a video game.

There is one online game being funded through Kickstarter that I donated to: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1763206385/astronaut-moon-mars-and-beyond-the-nasa-mmo-online-0 and I would use it as an example of my point: even this game, which had a very successful funding campaign, is stil receiving enormous outside financial support.

the problem i see with a MMO compared to a off-line SP game is that you need a much higher budget for operation of the game A SP game you can pretty much do adn be done with, a MMO takes a lot of development even after it is "done" but why not try it. After all as i understand there is a minimal risk invoived with a kickstarter project.

Ofc nothing could get me in to the gaming biz... i value my sanity and ulcer free innards way to much.

Originally posted by Interesting

-snip-

If there is demand for a sandbox MMORPGs, but game companies, publishers and investors are not willing to "take the risk". would kickstarter projects make Sandbox MMORPGs make our dreams come true and show us the actual demand for this MMORPG design philosophy? (to settle the long debate, do sandbox never get made because there is no demand, or there is no demand because they never got made right?)

Would kickstarter projects for Sandbox MMORPGs be a genial idea? (obvious rethoric question, bait) What would a Sandbox MMORPG project be able to raise? (rethoric question)

What company would have the best chances at it? What setting and theme? When will we start seing the first attempts? More importantly, how it would change the industry?

Kickstarter imo works best for specific, small projects for a specific small audience (initial). That way unusual games can find their core audience asap as well as that core audience feedback more into the development for peanut sized contributions. This is a promising model.

I'm less enthusiastic about the larger projects with more people asking for more from more people: Seems like a good way to get money off people upfront instead of a publisher? As said also, it may also only be partial subsidy even after a cool million of crowd-funding? And the technical expertise of the developers still needs to be stellar for these larger projects. Then with mmorpgs there's so many interpretations of these games that lead to lots of differences in player preferences.

On a smaller scale, it would be interesting, but there would need to be a really innovative feature behind it imo. IE Smaller scale of project -> more innovative design = more suitable KS project imo. : )

This blog on MARKET SEGMENTATION is fascinating and sorta makes the point I'm trying to make a lot better!

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TL;DR: "Make smaller games for fewer people who reeeeeally DIG that 1 game."

If the projects are started by experienced teams with previous titles to their names, then it can be an effective route for indies to go. If they are started by nobodies with no experience and little more than a dude wandering in the map they made in the latest engine they downloaded, then it's a waste of everyone's time and actually makes it harder for the legitimate indie teams to get funding. 

The question, though, is what examples do we have of existing professional developers* wanting to make a sandbox MMO but not being able to because they can't get funding? Identifying why those devs had trouble with funding (inexpeirenced, overamitious, poor planning, etc) would help identify whether kickstarter may or may not be a good approach for future devs. If the gameplan sucks, then the gameplay sucks, and no change in funding channel will fix that.

*real devs, not some dude in his basement with scribble of elves and a 'features for a REAL MMO' list

I started similar topic week ago.

The comments and interest was pretty crap.

You see , what i gather is that MMO players are special type of gamers: The worst one.

I dont know if the online gaming encourages this, or its natural tendency of antisocial people to seek socialising in anonymous online games...

But forget it. All what you can gather here is hate. No wish to support nothing and no wish for something new.

If ever a kickstarter MMO gets initiated, the funding will not come from this community

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I started similar topic week ago.

The comments and interest was pretty crap.

You see , what i gather is that MMO players are special type of gamers: The worst one.

I dont know if the online gaming encourages this, or its natural tendency of antisocial people to seek socialising in anonymous online games...

But forget it. All what you can gather here is hate. No wish to support nothing and no wish for something new.

If ever a kickstarter MMO gets initiated, the funding will not come from this community

 Lack of interest in jumping onboard with half-baked or ill-conceived ideas is not an indication of some universal level of hatred or apathy on the communitiy's part.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I started similar topic week ago.

The comments and interest was pretty crap.

You see , what i gather is that MMO players are special type of gamers: The worst one.

 

I dont know if the online gaming encourages this, or its natural tendency of antisocial people to seek socialising in anonymous online games...

 

But forget it. All what you can gather here is hate. No wish to support nothing and no wish for something new.

 

If ever a kickstarter MMO gets initiated, the funding will not come from this community

 

Hmm i think your overstating your particular opinion on MMO gamers, but its your opinion and well you kinda lump yourself into it.

I did take some time and posted on Raph Koster;s blog suggesting he do this exact thing, but i did not get a reply from him. 

The real question here is how much does a real serious MMO cost to make. Streamline it down to the most basic parts, figure out what the other indie sandbox mmos have failed and suceeded in and then go from there. Maybe getting some budget numbers from the guys behind Xsyon, DarkFall, or even Mortal Online. I really doubt that they would tell any of us this though.

I am sure there atre alot of free engines one could use Milk3d comes to mind and several others that give you the liscense for free upfront but takes royalties from release. I dunno i think there are alot of ways to save cash but it really comes down to the developers and how serious they can be when it comes to making it.

It would seem we should be expecting to see The Repopulation up on Kickstarter soon to try and gather some funds.  Hoping it does well as I really want to see that game make it to release!

Originally posted by Obraik

It would seem we should be expecting to see The Repopulation up on Kickstarter soon to try and gather some funds.  Hoping it does well as I really want to see that game make it to release!

Anxious for that one, too. They seem to have the talent to back up their ambition, which goes a long way toward helping a group achieve its vision.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I started similar topic week ago.

The comments and interest was pretty crap.

You see , what i gather is that MMO players are special type of gamers: The worst one.

 

I dont know if the online gaming encourages this, or its natural tendency of antisocial people to seek socialising in anonymous online games...

 

But forget it. All what you can gather here is hate. No wish to support nothing and no wish for something new.

 

If ever a kickstarter MMO gets initiated, the funding will not come from this community

 

I saw your threads.

This thread is about kickstarter possibility of settling a long history of dispute regarding Sandbox design philosophy having huge demand and/or being viable or not. This has always been a recurring theme, top 20 subjects. Kickstarter flashes a new light on it, some people are hopefull.

A very niche crappy game got near a hundred thousand backers. A mmorpg with the concept of Archeage would get atleast 5 times that if they tried. If kickstarter existed back when Darkfall was in the making, it wouldnt have failed. If it existed back when Flagship was making Hellgate London, it wouldnt have failed. Basically, Kickstarter is so kickass that if it existed a few years ago it would have the power to change the course of history. Now, we have something like it and it will cause huge effects such as allowing the development of games whose concept people dream about for years.

Its only a matter of time until we get our tripple A Sandbox via kickstarter.

Your threads were just brainstorming the use of kickstarter to fund mmorpgs, not specifically sandbox. In one you posted a specific concept of a zombie inspired mmo, there isnt much to discuss. Another one was about the community making its own mmorpg... To be honest with you, this place is just a human resource spot, its value is it community, the whole administration and their agenda, its brand, I dont want anything with it, neither would I help promote anything for them. Most people couldnt care less either, so anything under the brand name will fail because we dont hold the flag of this place, we just gather here to harvest human resources. Its like the forgotten area of this forum were people are supposed to discuss developing mmorpgs ideas, that people spend a lot of time writting well thought out concepts that nobody reads, nobody cares. My thread kicks the buckets on half of the people that feel strongly against sandbox, the people who think its design does not have demand, and it would not viable, while under the guise of a novel premise, wich is public funding. It will happen, the question is when. Its a good bait, therefore it will get more repplies. You cant start a thread that is hermetic and self contained, or a thread topic that pretty much reads like "lets make a wiki, you start", its like posting a picture and expecting any meaningfull repply. You just wait a few months and you will read somewhere on any gaming forum about this "kickstarter mmo" that looks promissing, then you will go there and see that there are thousands of coments and over a hundred thousand backers and things like that and then you will see the "interest".

Its like those online petitions for Diablo Art, or for Dark Souls for PC, but this time people will vote with their wallets and make things happen by themselfs.

Tim Schafer of Double Fine is a perfect candidate for Kickstarter because he is a video game legend.

So, if Tim Schafer uses Kickstarter to make a quirky platformer with a 1-2 year development schedule then everyone that donated will be pleased.

However, that wont happen with an MMORPG, especially a sandbox MMORPG.

A Kickstarter program wont draw the $20+ million a modern MMO would need for funding and its also unlikely that funding would continue throughout the 6-7 year development schedule that a sandbox MMO would take.

So, everyone involved would go in expecting their vision of the next Ultima Online and what the project would actually produce is the next Mortal Online.

Kickstarter is an interesting new way for video games to be made but not MMORPGs.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I started similar topic week ago.

The comments and interest was pretty crap.

You see , what i gather is that MMO players are special type of gamers: The worst one.

I dont know if the online gaming encourages this, or its natural tendency of antisocial people to seek socialising in anonymous online games...

But forget it. All what you can gather here is hate. No wish to support nothing and no wish for something new.

If ever a kickstarter MMO gets initiated, the funding will not come from this community

 Lack of interest in jumping onboard with half-baked or ill-conceived ideas is not an indication of some universal level of hatred or apathy on the communitiy's part.

This above is exactly what i was talking about

0% of creativity , but gives 200% to dig trough old posts , just so he can insult another person.

This are the people you are looking to help you.

I posted a topic similar to yours.

But some lame asses didnt even bother to read the fact , that i do not wish to develop the game, neither do i have any ambition. It was only theoretical musing "can we as community come up with perfect MMO" (and what would it be if its community created and founded)

What i got was bile and insults - like the one from Loktofeit.

Anyway. Good luck to you.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I started similar topic week ago.

The comments and interest was pretty crap.

You see , what i gather is that MMO players are special type of gamers: The worst one.

 

I dont know if the online gaming encourages this, or its natural tendency of antisocial people to seek socialising in anonymous online games...

But forget it. All what you can gather here is hate. No wish to support nothing and no wish for something new.

If ever a kickstarter MMO gets initiated, the funding will not come from this community

I thought that thread^ had a lot more potential than it found. I think ppl must have seen the "mmorpg + kickstarter + zombie-genre" and picked holes in it/full of disbelief, more gnashing of teeth at the impossibility of good sandbox mmorpgs! : )

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But it's feedback nonetheless: I think the options for a sandbox mmorpg:

1. Smaller more "do-able" project with lower target funding (matches niche) + innovative features: Lowers Risk/USP

2. Big Name backer/developer: Eg Lord British is rolling out the KS carpet: TALENT/Track-Record increases chances of success/fundng uptake.

3. An already pre-existing solid project that's already got most bases covered and is USING KS as further publicity for the target audience Eg: Pathfinder Online, Infinity: The Quest For Earth could supplement themselves with KS and gain intial pre-buy-in to the project: Which is often been one of the killers of sandbox is initial low population and low polish before GRADUALLY building from the core early adopters.

I agree in principle with the OP's ascertion that there are players/market for this type of game and different funding opportunities/collective will, could intiate sandbox mmorpg development.

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TL;DR: "I think Kickstarter could be an AID to filling up the cart behind the horse with more sand."

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

TL;DR: "I think Kickstarter could be an AID to filling up the cart behind the horse with more sand."

Definitely. When an indie project by those new to the industry hits a realisticalpha or better level of completion (not a default dude with default animation in a 'cool' map in the engine's test project) it becomes a viable enough project for investors to research and possibly get behind. Hopping onto kickstarter with a workable base game, a team that has proven it can stay for the long haul and a long term gameplan instill a good amount of confidence as it's leaps and bounds ahead of where the majority of projects will ever be. 

The Repopulation and Gods and Idols are examples of indie sandbox-style MMOs that are at a level where Kickstarter could be a viable option if they chose to go that route.

One of the misunderstandings of kickstarter is that people think any moron with an idea can get funding.  You pretty much have to have already built a name for yourself in the field, OR have a very simple and easy to execute project taht people can understand in 3 paragraphs

MMOs are not that.   Could RG go to kickstarter and get 30M to make a new sandbox?  sure.   

Also..  sandbox mmo´s in particular are not well defined.   If you want to develop one.. a lot of people here will shout for joy.. but as you start implementing details.. gradually you will lose support.  There are  lots of  binary decisions you MUST make that will immediately cause you to lose 50% of possible supporters.  The biggest is FFA pvp..   You take a poll here of people who say they ´love sandbox´.. and half of them will not play depending on the choice you make for FFA pvp.  There are other less definitive choices you will have to make, stuff like the importance of gear,  levels or open skills? etc etc ..  As you continue to make decisions..  those people who cried for joy in the beginning will either just leave, or will be less and less enthusiastic.

Originally posted by Azrile

One of the misunderstandings of kickstarter is that people think any moron with an idea can get funding.  You pretty much have to have already built a name for yourself in the field, OR have a very simple and easy to execute project taht people can understand in 3 paragraphs

MMOs are not that.   Could RG go to kickstarter and get 30M to make a new sandbox?  sure.   

Also..  sandbox mmo´s in particular are not well defined.   If you want to develop one.. a lot of people here will shout for joy.. but as you start implementing details.. gradually you will lose support.  There are  lots of  binary decisions you MUST make that will immediately cause you to lose 50% of possible supporters.  The biggest is FFA pvp..   You take a poll here of people who say they ´love sandbox´.. and half of them will not play depending on the choice you make for FFA pvp.  There are other less definitive choices you will have to make, stuff like the importance of gear,  levels or open skills? etc etc ..  As you continue to make decisions..  those people who cried for joy in the beginning will either just leave, or will be less and less enthusiastic.

 

This.

Kickstarter is just an avenue for someone to get funding.  It's not an endless money pot.  The vast majority of projects on Kickstarter do not get full funding.

Thinking of how little Minecraft started with I think it's safe to say, never say never. But MMO's are a very crowded market so it would have to be something VERY special or unique.

Maybe, as we've seen even a 200 million dollar budget can't make a good MMO (SWTOR). I've seen some indie games that have really good sandbox ideas, they just need a little funding to implement them correctly/timely fashion.