Originally posted by Zillen

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Originally posted by Souldrainer

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Originally posted by crysent

As the title says, and mark my words.  While this game is doing fine now, and would survive the current market, the horizon for mmo gamers looks as bright as I can remember in the last decade or so.  A quick over-view of what will likely be released this year: Planetside 2, Guild Wars 2, and Archage (not to mention a few lesser knowns Dust and EverquestNext)  - Right now the genre is stale, but in the next year I have a feeling that these games will drain the population from most games currently on the market including ToR.
While there are some innovative features in ToR for the most part its lackluster.  ToR took the safe route of cliche mmo mechanics and its going to bite them down the road when some of the more innovative and promising games release.  Call me a naysayer, a dooms day kinda guy, whatever.
Of course the game won't shut down, that's not what I mean, but we all know that MMO's usually die long before the company actually shuts them down.
The bright side (and I'm stealing this from another poster) is that ToR might have been the game that breaks the 'wow clone' market of MMO's.  Companies might start pushing away from that market and that is a good thing.
 
You can feed me lines about 1.2 and the voice acting and such but there is little doubt that ToR for the most part played it safe and I think it will bite them.

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Can you read the future? It should be a requirement that any time you compare one game to another, both games must have survived their launch. Planetside 2? GW 2? Archage? Secret World? Let's see what they are like when they actually come out. Rumor has it that GW2 is going to be buy to win. Planetside and TSW are from devs on my perma-boycott list, so I could care less. For thr other two, things just remain to be seen.

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Correction, sir. Retards who don't read the blog shout pay-to-win from their corner. Planetside and TSW are from perfectly reasonable devs who don't bother the rest of us. Please, leave your personal hate at home.

I don't think SW:TOR will die by any means but with the mass of games coming out this year, well, it's not going to retain it's numbers, which have already fallen quite a lot.

GW2 and MoP will be the main hitters.

Even things like TERA and TSW will take a chunk, believe it or not I have a guild that fused with the guild I am a part of coming straight from SW:TOR to play TERA, nevermind the friends of mine who started the guild, came from TOR as well. Totally different aethestics of these two games still doesn't matter, MMO gamers love to game hop.

Yeah, I don't think the game has much of a future with all those interessting titles coming out. The server that I play on (Basilisk Droid) has 38 people online in imperial fleet right now and has light status. Quite a change from several hours of queues. I have my doubts that this improves anytime soon.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by mrw0lf

Not read the thread, needless to say I disagree with the op. Once the boomerang  on negative hype kicks in and people adjust their hype expectations for the game, added all the new content that will be added, It will continue to be a cash cow for many years to come.

The new games coming out will suffer from the same unrealistic hype resulting in a huge backlash, it's already started on gw2 and it's not even out yet. It's like sharing your hobby with a load of Mike Teavee's.

I agree that GW2 does not look to be any better in content than SWTOR, but it does look good, and is not P2P. People will only pay what they want. Having said that I doubt I will touch it, as no point starting something new when other existing MMOs are taking up my time.

If SWTOR was F2P, I would probably play it more, but nothing that they are dishing out, warrants my monthly fee.

"Better" is a matter od opinion.

GW2 is more focused on larger groups while TOR is focused on soloing and small groups. So the games are a bit different in focus groups, TOR is after all made to be a multiplayer version of KOTOR with more MMO styled mechanics.

GW2 is focusing on massive PvP and PvE even if there is small group content in it as well.

I think TOR will be around for many years, but i somehow don't believe EAs 2 million player target at the end of the year. I instead think it will stable on 500K players which is impressive enough.

And yes, TOR would have more players if it was B2P. To me it is too much of a regular game and too little MMO to really be worth a regular monthly fee payment. That does not mean I think the game is bad, just overpriced.

Originally posted by potbellyrhi

Originally posted by DaRoamer

Originally posted by potbellyrhi 

Originally posted by DaRoamer  

Originally posted by potbellyrhi   

 

Reading comprehension FTW.

 I lvld 2 toons over 2 different 3 day weekends to 50 supporting my statement of lvling toons in 3 days.

 As far as 8 ppl 4/5 rakata there is its called 16 man raids, though that wasnt what i was saying either. I can gear up one toon (pending drops, yaay random loot) in 3 hours.

 And you really should learn to count.

Still not possible unless you didn't sleep.  At a bare minimum it'll take you 72 hours of game time to get to 50. 

You said "3hours total to get full BIS gear.", you're not going to get this in 1 raid.  How many items drop per boss in 16 man raids?  There are 5 bosses in EV.  Is everyone going to BIS gear in 1 raid? No, so why lie?

3 is still not half of 8, I know how to count.

Ok Trooper (1), Counselor (2), Knight (3) Sith Warrior (4) = 3?

8 loot pieces drop per 16man boss not including crafting crap and recipes/comms. 4 of those 8 are rakata pieces, 4 are exotech or pet loot. I've geared up about 14 apps now over the past month and a half between EV and KP in about a week. Maybe missing a BP or weapon but still atleast 4/5. At worst we had to wait 3 weeks for one sage while i geared our gunslingers akaavi's.

 And your reading comprehension is still shit. "Is everyone going to BIS gear in 1 raid?" I never wrote that did i? Sad part is we've geared some pretty retarded people for the sakes of filling a raid lately. We pugged a sentinel Sunday night through heroic KP and he got atleast a drop every boss plus his rakata weapon in a little under 2 hours.

At a bare minimum it takes 26 hours to lvl to 50 its been done a couple times by weirdos while getting plvld. W/o plvl i grinded my ass off those 3 days but i still slept atleast 7 hours, still had dinners and went out with the wife. Im sorry if you cant do it but i have a guy in guild who's leveled no alts up to now (so hes not familiar with the quests anymore) and is still managing to lvl his shadow in 5 or 6 days of 3-6 hour a night grind sessions. Hit 50 last night.

Oh, so now it's powerleveling?  Because what you said was "3 days to max lvl in SWTOR (listening to the story)".  Again, there is no way you listened to all the dialogue and got to 50 in a 3 day weekend.  I'm certainly not sorry I can't do it, who the hell wants to level that fast?  It took me 175 hours to get my first 50 because I actually tried to enjoy the game. 

Then you said it ""3hours total to get full BIS gear." except then you keep changing your story about what actually means.  No matter what you try to spin you cannot get FULL BIS gear in 3 hours. 

You're correct, I did miss that you listed 4 classes, it's hard to read your posts because of the awful spelling and punctuation. 

Sorry i just have to ask, what was worth 175 hours of your time enjoying? 13 year old combat? Hands off crafting system? Repetetive (yet voiced over) group quests? The story quests are maybe... an hour or two if you add up all the conversations? PVP might take some time but you would have lvld quicker. Hmm putting on your wizard hat and rubbing one out to twilek dancers? Listening to every conversation in every flashpoint and planet and doing the perscribed quests doesnt equal 175 hours of content. Just curious where those 175 hours of life that were enjoying SWTOR went? Honestly. 

And while i think later SWTOR might have some promise if the dev's remove Baulders Gate from their ass Superniceguy (IMO) is 100% on point.

    Looking back at your posts here I see, if not outright lies, then at the very least many extraordinary over exxagerations.  That is until you get called on them and then you like to go back and edit just enough truth in to make your posts more plausible.  Unfortunately, I read the original posts.

    It is so hard to have a "discussion" with someone like this.  I don't care if you like the game or not.  I don't care if you find faults with it, I certainly have and I do like the game.  But what you are doing is to the point now that I have to wonder if you are being paid to bash this game.  Signing off since the discussion isn't worth the time anymore.

I can accept (and partially agree) with those who say, we love the stories and the setting. However, how long does that last? After 2-3 stories completely seen, how long can you stay just grinding hardmode dungeons and warzones? That is where I have my doubts on the long term appeal of SWTOR.

I still think, given to the money involved and the years of development and the many people working on it, SWTOR is a huge letdown compared to what it could and should have been. This wasn't some small company 10 million dollar project! And that is what I just don't get, how after all these years and all that money THIS is all. That is just not right, no matter how you turn it. That is just a very, very poor result.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by mrw0lf

Not read the thread, needless to say I disagree with the op. Once the boomerang  on negative hype kicks in and people adjust their hype expectations for the game, added all the new content that will be added, It will continue to be a cash cow for many years to come.

The new games coming out will suffer from the same unrealistic hype resulting in a huge backlash, it's already started on gw2 and it's not even out yet. It's like sharing your hobby with a load of Mike Teavee's.

I agree that GW2 does not look to be any better in content than SWTOR, but it does look good, and is not P2P. People will only pay what they want. Having said that I doubt I will touch it, as no point starting something new when other existing MMOs are taking up my time.

If SWTOR was F2P, I would probably play it more, but nothing that they are dishing out, warrants my monthly fee.

"Better" is a matter od opinion.

GW2 is more focused on larger groups while TOR is focused on soloing and small groups. So the games are a bit different in focus groups, TOR is after all made to be a multiplayer version of KOTOR with more MMO styled mechanics.

GW2 is focusing on massive PvP and PvE even if there is small group content in it as well.

I think TOR will be around for many years, but i somehow don't believe EAs 2 million player target at the end of the year. I instead think it will stable on 500K players which is impressive enough.

And yes, TOR would have more players if it was B2P. To me it is too much of a regular game and too little MMO to really be worth a regular monthly fee payment. That does not mean I think the game is bad, just overpriced.

Trying to think of a B2P mmo, I don't know the complete details say for minecraft but there's a lot of dlc for that too I think, but for this aaa production B2P is just a hidden cost venture. I know we will not agree, that's fine but GW2 is not B2P imo, they will be picking up the sub money for the people they have playing, wether that's through yourself buying items or someone else buying your share doesn't really matter. (Incidentally it's odd that no-one ever seems to use these shops but they seem to make so much money from them).

TOR might have hard time releasing new expansions. Say 10 levels on new story line for 8 classes, and everything in VO.That's expensive.They could wrap it up and make it 2 story lines for each of factions tho.

Also I think will TOR will suffer from "looking old" too quickly because of the damn Hero Engine they use.

And competition this year gonna be hard, not only for TOR.

Most the voice cast are signed on for a good 7 solid years so vo's wont be too abd since they have been paid for the game is still sporting a solid ass playerbase and a ton of loyal ones at that plenty of full zones good 20-50 people per zone im sad you naysayers and doomsayers dont enjoy the game but that dont mean its gonna die anytime soon.

I'm gonna go ahead and pretty much say all these new games will fail. the only one that could be worth spit is made by asians even though it's a themish sandbox.

If any of them want to do anything to change the genre they need to move so far away from standard MMO template it would be scary to many many of these new generation MMO players.

Innovation is dead my friends. go get a degree at full sail university  if you wanna try to change the genre.

Start your own indie company and pray to god the mayans weren't right.

Go outside and enjoy the summer and remember when developers tried to create instead of re-create.

Originally posted by RPGForever

20% off? bad signal, most games do that after 1+ years after launch. Desperation? I think it will be free to play in a few months, so just have to wait till then.

The game would need a lot of technical revamping to go F2P - it's not like they can just flip a switch. They'll exhaust all other scenarios before going F2P - look at Warhammer; that game is dead in the water and it still has a monthly fee. Same for DAOC. EA will cling to a monthly fee despite themselves. What they will probably end up doing is make the first 20 levels free (like WoW does) and then charge if you want to take your character beyond level 20. That they can do without fundamentally changing how the game is monetized.

Originally posted by rammur65

Most the voice cast are signed on for a good 7 solid years so vo's wont be too abd since they have been paid for the game is still sporting a solid ass playerbase and a ton of loyal ones at that plenty of full zones good 20-50 people per zone im sad you naysayers and doomsayers dont enjoy the game but that dont mean its gonna die anytime soon.

 By zone do you mean planets? Also how exactly is 20-50 people a lot, in my opinion that is VERY little.

I like Bioware but they needed to stay away from the so called WoW clone design but unfortunately they chose the quick and eas route which we all know leads to the path of the dark side, destruction. Failure is now inevitable, it is just a matter of time. With the like of GW2, Planetside 2 and even The Secret World people will flock to those games because they bring something new and interesting to the mmo genre.

Originally posted by Mephster

I like Bioware but they needed to stay away from the so called WoW clone design but unfortunately they chose the quick and eas route which we all know leads to the path of the dark side, destruction. Failure is now inevitable, it is just a matter of time. With the like of GW2, Planetside 2 and even The Secret World people will flock to those games because they bring something new and interesting to the mmo genre.

My friend, GW2 is also a mix of rift, wow, gw1, warhammer and it have the same system that you will find in swtor or any other MMO before, there is nothing new or innovative on gw2 dont know why people keep talking about that. TSW is more innovative than gw2 by far far away, they even have a freeform pregression system, like gw2 where is ur weapon who defines what skill u will be using in ur skill bar, exactly like gw2, but since TSW is coming early than gw2, Funcon did it 1st. Planetside is a FPS MMO, and f2p. and even when TSW could be great, it wont be a competition for swtor.

I agree with the OP....sad to say server pops are dropping and Bioware keeps commiting cardinal sin after cardinal sin with the patches and updates.

One of the posters above said it best about Bioware leaving EA.

Bioware has never been the same since the EA merge/assimilation.

All that money spent (millions) just to make a WoW clone...why bother?

Originally posted by crysent

While there are some innovative features in ToR for the most part its lackluster. 

I'm sorry wha? Exactly what was innovative again? Would love to know. 

Originally posted by sonicbrew

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by crysent

No - I don't think it can unfortunatly, the fundamentals of the game are too themeparkish to the extreme.  There isn't much room to change.  Perhaps it could happen, anything is possible and my opinions only worth a cent, but I will stick by my prediction.

So, if it's the "themeparkishness" of the game that will kill it, then I suspect LotRO and many other "doin' just fine" games will just collapse into oblivion.  Even WoW...

I don't think so.  Those games will be fine, and so will TOR, at least based on that prediction.  The only real threat is GW2, and it's B2P. 

If TOR fails, it won't be because of the "themeparkishness".  Lots of players like that about the game.  When people do claim to like this game, it's generally BECAUSE of these aspects.  TOR's main problem is the brick wall at 50.  If they don't fix it, it will be the game's downfall, IMO.

Man no offense but could you please stop with the blinding retna burning colors in all your posts seriously? I would also agree with both of you to a certain extent, however, comparing this game to LOTRO is laughable at best. Have you even played LOTRO?

Dude, I've been subbed to LotRO for almost 3 years.  And no, I'm not comparing it to LotRO directly.  They are both themeparks, so for Crysent to say that TOR will die because it is themepark you'd have to assume that all themepark based games will suffer a similar fate.  And yes, LotRO is most certainly a themepark game.

And nope.  Not changing my font color.  If it's killing your retinae, you might consider adjusting your monitor, or seeing a neurologist.  Cuz, that's not normal.

Originally posted by ignore_me

There's a brick wall at 50 because the theme park content ends at 50. So do you make more quests that the locusts will burn through in a week (and are right back to peeps being pissed), or do you open the game up to other activities that are more easily sustained by the players themselves.

That's a false choice.  All you need is to create other activities that people who enjoy the story content will also enjoy, that can keep them occupied indefinitely.

For one, they could fix crafting and make it better appeal to those people.

They could improve on alternate advancement.  Legacy is but one step in that effort.

They could create more dynamic scenarios that are easy to get into and take maybe 5-15 minutes to complete.  All they need to do is recycle what they've already built, make it more dynamic, and provide incentives to do it through alternative advancement.

Allow for you to revisit previously completed content.  CoX did this to great effect.  LotRO caught on, and now provides scalable instances and raids even outside their skirmish system.

You may not keep everybody, but it keeps some people happy til' you put out brand spankin' new content.

If you were to ask most "locusts", I'd bet you'd hear that once they got to 50, not only were they not interested in raiding over and over and over again, but that there's little reason to do it when it's all for gear, and there's little advancement otherwise.  Most will probably still consider Legacy to be too weak for them to raid for.  But if you give them everything they had, scalable, make flashpoints scaleable, make heroic areas rewarding for longer(I found that quest rewards were inferior to what I already had by the time I ran them),  Make crafted items and components more interesting(more armor/DPS and higher End/prime stat bonus with maybe a secondary bonus is BO-RING).  Make components that enhance specific abilities...

...all while adding new content, then sub turnover would improve greatly.

 

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

Plus if SWTOR cost 200m you have to assume VO scenes are extremely expensive to produce, they will not create more, certainly not class specific, or even faction.

More expensive than standard content?  Yes.  That's why they set their "survival" subscriber point so much higher than most games.  But that IS the point; to be able to create more VO/interactive cinematic content.

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

It's financial year end at the end of March, that's why they have all the free trials and now the 20% off.

 

As Yoda would say

 

Numbers falling, fear have the suits.

Yes... just like Rift, which was down TO about 15-20 bucks at about the same point in its life.  But ah, I forgot... it's a complete failure, too. 

Originally posted by Elikal

I can accept (and partially agree) with those who say, we love the stories and the setting. However, how long does that last? After 2-3 stories completely seen, how long can you stay just grinding hardmode dungeons and warzones? That is where I have my doubts on the long term appeal of SWTOR.

I still think, given to the money involved and the years of development and the many people working on it, SWTOR is a huge letdown compared to what it could and should have been. This wasn't some small company 10 million dollar project! And that is what I just don't get, how after all these years and all that money THIS is all. That is just not right, no matter how you turn it. That is just a very, very poor result.

They didn't leave room for you to feel like you were having your own story as well. They put all their eggs in one basket, and then all too quickly as a player you are simply out of eggs. It is a fatal design flaw in my opinion, but it could be fixed. Question is will they do it? 

There's a brick wall at 50 because the theme park content ends at 50. So do you make more quests that the locusts will burn through in a week (and are right back to peeps being pissed), or do you open the game up to other activities that are more easily sustained by the players themselves.

That's a false choice. All you need is to create other activities that people who enjoy the story content will also enjoy, that can keep them occupied indefinitely.

For one, they could fix crafting and make it better appeal to those people.

They could improve on alternate advancement. Legacy is but one step in that effort.

They could create more dynamic scenarios that are easy to get into and take maybe 5-15 minutes to complete. All they need to do is recycle what they've already built, make it more dynamic, and provide incentives to do it through alternative advancement.

Allow for you to revisit previously completed content. CoX did this to great effect. LotRO caught on, and now provides scalable instances and raids even outside their skirmish system.

You may not keep everybody, but it keeps some people happy til' you put out brand spankin' new content.

If you were to ask most "locusts", I'd bet you'd hear that once they got to 50, not only were they not interested in raiding over and over and over again, but that there's little reason to do it when it's all for gear, and there's little advancement otherwise. Most will probably still consider Legacy to be too weak for them to raid for. But if you give them everything they had, scalable, make flashpoints scaleable, make heroic areas rewarding for longer(I found that quest rewards were inferior to what I already had by the time I ran them), Make crafted items and components more interesting(more armor/DPS and higher End/prime stat bonus with maybe a secondary bonus is BO-RING). Make components that enhance specific abilities...

...all while adding new content, then sub turnover would improve greatly.

 I don't think we actually disagree other than in the terminology I used. It basically boils down to other activities at 50 than they utilized. You have your choices, and while I agree with yours, I probably would like some other elements added that maybe you wouldn't enjoy as much. I assumed that the same sub-50 content would be replicated in future updates for endgame, and I was saying that this has a predictable outcome based on what happened the last time the content ended and people were forced to start the gear grind or PvP.