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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Honest question, fanbois and haters try and be objective

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104 posts found
  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7743

Logic be damned!

3/26/12 6:15:21 PM#41
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Cthulhu23

 But needing to buy a key to unlock random chests in the world?  AWFUL.  Not sure how accurate that is, or how common these chests are, but I can honestly say that this has to be one of  the worst ideas I've ever heard of for a cash shop.  

So, it's not P2W, but it's not as harmless as Arena Net has cracked it up to be, either.

Wouldn't that be 100% totally completely without any doubt ENTIRELY dependant on what is in the chests?

To me that's a smaller issue compared to how these boxes are implemented, and how often you loot things that you can't open without spending RL cash, or if it entails long grinds to do it the alternative way in game. Never been a fan of those types of item-shop practices.

Or you could say it's like buying a treasure map - then you have to go in game and find the treasure and that is your reward.

Like you said, it's all about how it is implemented.

I highly doubt Anet would place them on the loot tables of random mobs you'd kill in the world.

You are right, the "I'm sorry you can't get loot from the monster you just killed unles you pay 1.99$" would be a terrible idea, so terrible, in fact, no one would be stupid enough to do it.

 

Now Playing: Destiny

  Roybe

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/10
Posts: 424

3/26/12 6:16:58 PM#42
Originally posted by BlahTeeb

There are two main issues with the store right now. One is that the gems can and will be traded for in game gold. The second is that they are selling experience boosts.

 

The first problem, trading gems, goes both way. You can also buy gems with in-game gold. Therefore, someone who spent five dollars to buy gems may sell them for gold, which may only take a few hours to accumulate. We do not know and will not know the extact transaction rate until the game is matured. So this is purely speculation. So in this sense, they are actually giving you EVERYTHING in the cash shop for free as long as you can save up enough gold.

I disagree with this idea.  Completely.  This game has a chance to go the way of Diablo 2, and what I call the SoJ problem.  In D2, as we all remember gold became worthless and an in game item (Stone's of Jordan (SoJ)) became the de facto currency.  Something similar could occur here.  Since gems are tied to hard currency, in game gold runs the chance of becoming worthless.  For example you will be able to sell your found Uber Sword of Goodness for 500,000 gold...and you will find someone to buy it for that, however, if you are buying said Sword I'd bet you'd be hard put to find someone that would sell it to you for gold.  They'd want the most amount of the defacto currency they could get.  In GW1 it was Ecto's.  In GW2, it might be Cash Shop gems. 

Now, can someone explain to me how this WON'T happen?  Or is it only a matter of time before gold devalues and we have an item in the cash shop that will have to be bought to trade for any in game item?

 

  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7743

Logic be damned!

3/26/12 6:19:35 PM#43
Originally posted by Roybe
Originally posted by BlahTeeb

There are two main issues with the store right now. One is that the gems can and will be traded for in game gold. The second is that they are selling experience boosts.

The first problem, trading gems, goes both way. You can also buy gems with in-game gold. Therefore, someone who spent five dollars to buy gems may sell them for gold, which may only take a few hours to accumulate. We do not know and will not know the extact transaction rate until the game is matured. So this is purely speculation. So in this sense, they are actually giving you EVERYTHING in the cash shop for free as long as you can save up enough gold.

I disagree with this idea.  Completely.  This game has a chance to go the way of Diablo 2, and what I call the SoJ problem.  In D2, as we all remember gold became worthless and an in game item (Stone's of Jordan (SoJ)) became the de facto currency.  Something similar could occur here.  Since gems are tied to hard currency, in game gold runs the chance of becoming worthless.  For example you will be able to sell your found Uber Sword of Goodness for 500,000 gold...and you will find someone to buy it for that, however, if you are buying said Sword I'd bet you'd be hard put to find someone that would sell it to you for gold.  They'd want the most amount of the defacto currency they could get.  In GW1 it was Ecto's.  In GW2, it might be Cash Shop gems. 

Now, can someone explain to me how this WON'T happen?  Or is it only a matter of time before gold devalues and we have an item in the cash shop that will have to be bought to trade for any in game item?

Strict control over the rate in which currency is added into the world (gold/karma) versus sales figures for gems.

Now Playing: Destiny

  ComfyChair

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/10
Posts: 766

3/26/12 6:20:50 PM#44

Every MMO has a system where you can buy gold with real money, it's called chinese gold farming.

Difference is that in GW2 gold doesn't mean nearly as much as other MMO's.

Maybe i just know too much about the game to think it could ever be an issue (and i know too much about MMO's to think gold selling wont happen), but i didn't give the slightest damn when they announced the ability to 'buy gold' via trading useful diamonds to other players legally.

It should be a pretty big massive 'wait a second' sign if people who've been following the game for years and years see the cash shop and don't even blink, yet people who jumped on the hype train in February are freaking out.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15639

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/26/12 6:21:18 PM#45
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Cthulhu23

 But needing to buy a key to unlock random chests in the world?  AWFUL.  Not sure how accurate that is, or how common these chests are, but I can honestly say that this has to be one of  the worst ideas I've ever heard of for a cash shop.  

So, it's not P2W, but it's not as harmless as Arena Net has cracked it up to be, either.

Wouldn't that be 100% totally completely without any doubt ENTIRELY dependant on what is in the chests?

To me that's a smaller issue compared to how these boxes are implemented, and how often you loot things that you can't open without spending RL cash, or if it entails long grinds to do it the alternative way in game. Never been a fan of those types of item-shop practices.

Or you could say it's like buying a treasure map - then you have to go in game and find the treasure and that is your reward.

Like you said, it's all about how it is implemented.

I highly doubt Anet would place them on the loot tables of random mobs you'd kill in the world.

You are right, the "I'm sorry you can't get loot from the monster you just killed unles you pay 1.99$" would be a terrible idea, so terrible, in fact, no one would be stupid enough to do it.

 

 Cryptic basically did. But you're right I'm not saying they will be like that just hoping they're not :).

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Banisco

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/11
Posts: 241

I like to play with trolls.

3/26/12 6:22:56 PM#46
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Roybe
Originally posted by BlahTeeb

There are two main issues with the store right now. One is that the gems can and will be traded for in game gold. The second is that they are selling experience boosts.

The first problem, trading gems, goes both way. You can also buy gems with in-game gold. Therefore, someone who spent five dollars to buy gems may sell them for gold, which may only take a few hours to accumulate. We do not know and will not know the extact transaction rate until the game is matured. So this is purely speculation. So in this sense, they are actually giving you EVERYTHING in the cash shop for free as long as you can save up enough gold.

I disagree with this idea.  Completely.  This game has a chance to go the way of Diablo 2, and what I call the SoJ problem.  In D2, as we all remember gold became worthless and an in game item (Stone's of Jordan (SoJ)) became the de facto currency.  Something similar could occur here.  Since gems are tied to hard currency, in game gold runs the chance of becoming worthless.  For example you will be able to sell your found Uber Sword of Goodness for 500,000 gold...and you will find someone to buy it for that, however, if you are buying said Sword I'd bet you'd be hard put to find someone that would sell it to you for gold.  They'd want the most amount of the defacto currency they could get.  In GW1 it was Ecto's.  In GW2, it might be Cash Shop gems. 

Now, can someone explain to me how this WON'T happen?  Or is it only a matter of time before gold devalues and we have an item in the cash shop that will have to be bought to trade for any in game item?

Strict control over the rate in which currency is added into the world (gold/karma) versus sales figures for gems.

Also gems can only be purchased with gold, much like Spiral Knigths energy. There is no direct trade for gems<---->items

  ComfyChair

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/10
Posts: 766

3/26/12 6:23:31 PM#47

The mystic chests are essentially the same as the ones in TF2. If you get one you just trade it for something.

 

I get the feeling they'll be removed though. I just don't see them selling well.

 

  AvatarBlade

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/11/06
Posts: 773

3/26/12 6:25:18 PM#48
Originally posted by Requiamer
Originally posted by RizelStar
Originally posted by cali59

It's B2P because you buy the box and then never have to buy anything else.

While I understand skepticism about a cash shop, the nature of the game itself keeps it in check (no vertical progression, totally balanced structured PVP, autoscaling down in PVE, etc)

This is a very good video for explaining why this cash shop really isn't a big issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Kx7o7CRoDXc

Nuff said.

Are you guys really thinking the reason excuse given to explain the relation gem/mist castle buff is even remotely appropriate in this video?  Should i list them?

- "If you don't want to get the buff avoid the castle" is kind of scary isn't it?

- " Buff are on timer", no really aren't all buff on timer anyway?

- "They work only at the vascinity" Don't you usually use a buff when a fight start anyway? The guy seam to think its a good deal because you won't be able to upkeep your buff all the time during 2 week, it seam to cost too much, wtf?... I mean seriously. I don't want to raise a panic, but how can those "excuse" be even used?

- Ho ye, the last one must win the competition of the scariest excuse, "the mist is not supposed to be balnced", so let us make it even less balanced with the cash shop? No really are you guys serious?

 

Isn't it exactly those kind of stuff not only the cash shop but the entire GW2 design supposed to avoid? did i miss something?

 

Really, why is everyone ignoring what this guy is saying? Is it wrong or do people just not want to acknowledge that this might be a problem?

  Monorojo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/08
Posts: 422

3/26/12 6:25:24 PM#49

Currenly GW2 is a pay to win game. There are several elements in the cash shop that give players willing to spend money significant time advantages. People will level to 80 faster if they pay than if they do ot. In WvWvW, where gear and progression will matter, anyone who does not pay for the time savers will be significantly behind those that do.

 

I plead to you TC to avoid this game like the plague, unless you plan on spending several 100s of dollars on the cash shop. I do not want you to waste your time.

  Monorojo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/08
Posts: 422

3/26/12 6:26:53 PM#50
Originally posted by AvatarBlade
Originally posted by Requiamer
Originally posted by RizelStar
Originally posted by cali59

It's B2P because you buy the box and then never have to buy anything else.

While I understand skepticism about a cash shop, the nature of the game itself keeps it in check (no vertical progression, totally balanced structured PVP, autoscaling down in PVE, etc)

This is a very good video for explaining why this cash shop really isn't a big issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Kx7o7CRoDXc

Nuff said.

Are you guys really thinking the reason excuse given to explain the relation gem/mist castle buff is even remotely appropriate in this video?  Should i list them?

- "If you don't want to get the buff avoid the castle" is kind of scary isn't it?

- " Buff are on timer", no really aren't all buff on timer anyway?

- "They work only at the vascinity" Don't you usually use a buff when a fight start anyway? The guy seam to think its a good deal because you won't be able to upkeep your buff all the time during 2 week, it seam to cost too much, wtf?... I mean seriously. I don't want to raise a panic, but how can those "excuse" be even used?

- Ho ye, the last one must win the competition of the scariest excuse, "the mist is not supposed to be balnced", so let us make it even less balanced with the cash shop? No really are you guys serious?

 

Isn't it exactly those kind of stuff not only the cash shop but the entire GW2 design supposed to avoid? did i miss something?

 

Really, why is everyone ignoring what this guy is saying? Is it wrong or do people just not want to acknowledge that this might be a problem?

He is 100% correct and there are serious issues with this cash shop that the majority of fans are choosing to ignore. It is really a sad state of affairs.

  ComfyChair

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/10
Posts: 766

3/26/12 6:27:48 PM#51
Originally posted by Monorojo

Currenly GW2 is a pay to win game. There are several elements in the cash shop that give players willing to spend money significant time advantages. People will level to 80 faster if they pay than if they do ot. In WvWvW, where gear and progression will matter, anyone who does not pay for the time savers will be significantly behind those that do.

Lol. You'll always be behind someone. If they spent £100 or so to get exp boosts until they hit 80, let them do it until their heart's content. I doesn't make any difference to me. In WvW i don't even know their name.

Also, when you're also level 80, they have no advantage over you. Therefore, not pay 2 win.

However, it's abundant that people certainly don't have to Pay 2 derp about pay 2 win.

 

  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7743

Logic be damned!

3/26/12 6:29:22 PM#52

It's like all these people who keep saying "Oh Pay2WIN cause it's a little faster" don't realize that there is a ceiling and it's going to be pretty easy to catch up and hit that ceiling...

Unlike some games where you cannot ever catch up no matter what you do and have elements of pay to win.

Now Playing: Destiny

  ComfyChair

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/10
Posts: 766

3/26/12 6:30:20 PM#53
Originally posted by BadSpock

It's like all these people who keep saying "Oh Pay2WIN cause it's a little faster" don't realize that there is a ceiling and it's going to be pretty easy to catch up and hit that ceiling...

Unlike some games where you cannot ever catch up no matter what you do and have elements of pay to win.

It also shows the underlying, pathetic truth:

Standard MMO's value time, not player skill.

It's only 'play 2 win' because the pathetic MMO genre thinks time = skill.

 

To the whiners: go on, spend £2k in the cash shop. Buy up all the 1 hour exp boosts you can, I'll meet you in PvP and crush you regardless ;)

  KingGator

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 474

 
OP  3/26/12 6:34:26 PM#54
Originally posted by ComfyChair
Originally posted by BadSpock

It's like all these people who keep saying "Oh Pay2WIN cause it's a little faster" don't realize that there is a ceiling and it's going to be pretty easy to catch up and hit that ceiling...

Unlike some games where you cannot ever catch up no matter what you do and have elements of pay to win.

It also shows the underlying, pathetic truth:

Standard MMO's value time, not player skill.

It's only 'play 2 win' because the pathetic MMO genre thinks time = skill.

 

To the whiners: go on, spend £2k in the cash shop. Buy up all the 1 hour exp boosts you can, I'll meet you in PvP and crush you regardless ;)

But how pissed will you be when you don't? Because like all cash shops what is in it at the start isn't what's going to be there several months after release, its the nature of these things. How pissed are you going to be when the sword of a thousand truths is on the cash shop for 200 and some rich boy with more money than sense that never could beat you before gets it and starts 3 shotting you? 

  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7743

Logic be damned!

3/26/12 6:35:48 PM#55
Originally posted by KingGator
Originally posted by ComfyChair
Originally posted by BadSpock

It's like all these people who keep saying "Oh Pay2WIN cause it's a little faster" don't realize that there is a ceiling and it's going to be pretty easy to catch up and hit that ceiling...

Unlike some games where you cannot ever catch up no matter what you do and have elements of pay to win.

It also shows the underlying, pathetic truth:

Standard MMO's value time, not player skill.

It's only 'play 2 win' because the pathetic MMO genre thinks time = skill.

To the whiners: go on, spend £2k in the cash shop. Buy up all the 1 hour exp boosts you can, I'll meet you in PvP and crush you regardless ;)

But how pissed will you be when you don't? Because like all cash shops what is in it at the start isn't what's going to be there several months after release, its the nature of these things. How pissed are you going to be when the sword of a thousand truths is on the cash shop for 200 and some rich boy with more money than sense that never could beat you before gets it and starts 3 shotting you? 

Never happened in Guild Wars 1.

What makes you think it will happen in Guild Wars 2?

 

Now Playing: Destiny

  Roybe

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/10
Posts: 424

3/26/12 6:36:25 PM#56
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Roybe
Originally posted by BlahTeeb

There are two main issues with the store right now. One is that the gems can and will be traded for in game gold. The second is that they are selling experience boosts.

The first problem, trading gems, goes both way. You can also buy gems with in-game gold. Therefore, someone who spent five dollars to buy gems may sell them for gold, which may only take a few hours to accumulate. We do not know and will not know the extact transaction rate until the game is matured. So this is purely speculation. So in this sense, they are actually giving you EVERYTHING in the cash shop for free as long as you can save up enough gold.

I disagree with this idea.  Completely.  This game has a chance to go the way of Diablo 2, and what I call the SoJ problem.  In D2, as we all remember gold became worthless and an in game item (Stone's of Jordan (SoJ)) became the de facto currency.  Something similar could occur here.  Since gems are tied to hard currency, in game gold runs the chance of becoming worthless.  For example you will be able to sell your found Uber Sword of Goodness for 500,000 gold...and you will find someone to buy it for that, however, if you are buying said Sword I'd bet you'd be hard put to find someone that would sell it to you for gold.  They'd want the most amount of the defacto currency they could get.  In GW1 it was Ecto's.  In GW2, it might be Cash Shop gems. 

Now, can someone explain to me how this WON'T happen?  Or is it only a matter of time before gold devalues and we have an item in the cash shop that will have to be bought to trade for any in game item?

Strict control over the rate in which currency is added into the world (gold/karma) versus sales figures for gems.

Although I stated the problem as valuation, it isn't really about valuation per se (although it's related). It's about the perception of what the 'real' currency is.  People that want to sell something MIGHT want 'RL money' (or its equivalent) rather than in game gold.  This is the problem I'm thinking about.  If the seller refuses gold and only accepts gems, gold is worthless to them.  IF this happens broadly in the game, the economy is only run by those spending in the cash shop.

 

 

  Monorojo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/08
Posts: 422

3/26/12 6:36:40 PM#57
Originally posted by KingGator
Originally posted by ComfyChair
Originally posted by BadSpock

It's like all these people who keep saying "Oh Pay2WIN cause it's a little faster" don't realize that there is a ceiling and it's going to be pretty easy to catch up and hit that ceiling...

Unlike some games where you cannot ever catch up no matter what you do and have elements of pay to win.

It also shows the underlying, pathetic truth:

Standard MMO's value time, not player skill.

It's only 'play 2 win' because the pathetic MMO genre thinks time = skill.

 

To the whiners: go on, spend £2k in the cash shop. Buy up all the 1 hour exp boosts you can, I'll meet you in PvP and crush you regardless ;)

But how pissed will you be when you don't? Because like all cash shops what is in it at the start isn't what's going to be there several months after release, its the nature of these things. How pissed are you going to be when the sword of a thousand truths is on the cash shop for 200 and some rich boy with more money than sense that never could beat you before gets it and starts 3 shotting you? 

Oh he is going to rage soooo hard! lol

A lot of people defending the current items in the cash shop are incredibly short sighted. They do not understand how far Anet will push this (as much as possible). This is just the beginning and the situation is going to get worse fast.

  KingGator

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 474

 
OP  3/26/12 6:37:39 PM#58
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by KingGator
Originally posted by ComfyChair
Originally posted by BadSpock

It's like all these people who keep saying "Oh Pay2WIN cause it's a little faster" don't realize that there is a ceiling and it's going to be pretty easy to catch up and hit that ceiling...

Unlike some games where you cannot ever catch up no matter what you do and have elements of pay to win.

It also shows the underlying, pathetic truth:

Standard MMO's value time, not player skill.

It's only 'play 2 win' because the pathetic MMO genre thinks time = skill.

To the whiners: go on, spend £2k in the cash shop. Buy up all the 1 hour exp boosts you can, I'll meet you in PvP and crush you regardless ;)

But how pissed will you be when you don't? Because like all cash shops what is in it at the start isn't what's going to be there several months after release, its the nature of these things. How pissed are you going to be when the sword of a thousand truths is on the cash shop for 200 and some rich boy with more money than sense that never could beat you before gets it and starts 3 shotting you? 

Never happened in Guild Wars 1.

What makes you think it will happen in Guild Wars 2?

 

Human nature, and this was a much more expensive production than Guild Wars 1, they're going to be looking to get their money out, which I have no problem with, just generally don't like p2w. And I repeat, i don't know that's what its going to be, i fear it is all. :)

  KingGator

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 474

 
OP  3/26/12 6:39:55 PM#59
Originally posted by Monorojo
Originally posted by KingGator
Originally posted by ComfyChair
Originally posted by BadSpock

It's like all these people who keep saying "Oh Pay2WIN cause it's a little faster" don't realize that there is a ceiling and it's going to be pretty easy to catch up and hit that ceiling...

Unlike some games where you cannot ever catch up no matter what you do and have elements of pay to win.

It also shows the underlying, pathetic truth:

Standard MMO's value time, not player skill.

It's only 'play 2 win' because the pathetic MMO genre thinks time = skill.

 

To the whiners: go on, spend £2k in the cash shop. Buy up all the 1 hour exp boosts you can, I'll meet you in PvP and crush you regardless ;)

But how pissed will you be when you don't? Because like all cash shops what is in it at the start isn't what's going to be there several months after release, its the nature of these things. How pissed are you going to be when the sword of a thousand truths is on the cash shop for 200 and some rich boy with more money than sense that never could beat you before gets it and starts 3 shotting you? 

Oh he is going to rage soooo hard! lol

A lot of people defending the current items in the cash shop are incredibly short sighted. They do not understand how far Anet will push this (as much as possible). This is just the beginning and the situation is going to get worse fast.

 

Yeap, but whatever, I am a game hopper anyways, when this comes out I'll dump swtor(which sucks)and play it until copernicus gets released, so I only need it to stay sane for about 6 months. :)

  Monorojo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/08
Posts: 422

3/26/12 6:42:43 PM#60
Originally posted by KingGator
Originally posted by Monorojo
Originally posted by KingGator
Originally posted by ComfyChair
Originally posted by BadSpock

It's like all these people who keep saying "Oh Pay2WIN cause it's a little faster" don't realize that there is a ceiling and it's going to be pretty easy to catch up and hit that ceiling...

Unlike some games where you cannot ever catch up no matter what you do and have elements of pay to win.

It also shows the underlying, pathetic truth:

Standard MMO's value time, not player skill.

It's only 'play 2 win' because the pathetic MMO genre thinks time = skill.

 

To the whiners: go on, spend £2k in the cash shop. Buy up all the 1 hour exp boosts you can, I'll meet you in PvP and crush you regardless ;)

But how pissed will you be when you don't? Because like all cash shops what is in it at the start isn't what's going to be there several months after release, its the nature of these things. How pissed are you going to be when the sword of a thousand truths is on the cash shop for 200 and some rich boy with more money than sense that never could beat you before gets it and starts 3 shotting you? 

Oh he is going to rage soooo hard! lol

A lot of people defending the current items in the cash shop are incredibly short sighted. They do not understand how far Anet will push this (as much as possible). This is just the beginning and the situation is going to get worse fast.

 

Yeap, but whatever, I am a game hopper anyways, when this comes out I'll dump swtor(which sucks)and play it until copernicus gets released, so I only need it to stay sane for about 6 months. :)

True, but atleast that game you mentioned isn't Pay to Win.

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