Originally posted by Yizle

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Elsabolts

I would say alot of folks complained enough that some classes were op'ed and in come the nerf's. Happens every game some sooner then later.

Yes and it's a shame that devs don't stand their ground against the PVP whiners. That or make skills that are PVP specific so that the nerf hammer doesn't affect players who don't PVP.

Yes and it's a shame that devs don't stand their ground against the PVE whiners.  

PVE players aren't notorious for demanding nerfs. If devs ever caved in to PVE whiners there wouldn't be nerfs in the first place. So I'll take the PVE whiners any day over the whining PVPers who don't like to lose.

Trooper/BH and Sages/inq have been far ahead of other classes in every aspect (DPS and healing specs).

If you play endgame and look around you at other players you will see it. I play smuggler and troopers/sages friends in my guild see that they are OP. No one is denying it because they see how other classes perform in ops every week.

BW is doing the right thing here and could spend pages going through specifics that we see every week but cba :P

Originally posted by gtnbtfte

Trooper/BH and Sages/inq have been far ahead of other classes in every aspect (DPS and healing specs).

If you play endgame and look around you at other players you will see it. I play smuggler and troopers/sages friends in my guild see that they are OP. No one is denying it because they see how other classes perform in ops every week.

BW is doing the right thing here and could spend pages going through specifics that we see every week but cba :P

Using my class, trooper, as an example, 1.2 was a classic example of what not to do. Trooper needed changes, but only thanks to bioware own incompetence. They made the gunner tree revolve around grav shot and if they wanted to change that then they need to strip grav shot of some of its bonuses and put them on other abilities. But their design was to make the class a stationary turret with gunner, and this change goes against that which, is fine if they changed the whole tree to adapt to the change, but they just did a knee jerk change.

They needed to do the change properly and screwed it up, just like they did with operative, and for some reasonthe healing tree got the brunt of the damage. Poor decisions all round

Originally posted by darkehawke

Originally posted by gtnbtfte

Trooper/BH and Sages/inq have been far ahead of other classes in every aspect (DPS and healing specs).

If you play endgame and look around you at other players you will see it. I play smuggler and troopers/sages friends in my guild see that they are OP. No one is denying it because they see how other classes perform in ops every week.

BW is doing the right thing here and could spend pages going through specifics that we see every week but cba :P

Using my class, trooper, as an example, 1.2 was a classic example of what not to do. Trooper needed changes, but only thanks to bioware own incompetence. They made the gunner tree revolve around grav shot and if they wanted to change that then they need to strip grav shot of some of its bonuses and put them on other abilities. But their design was to make the class a stationary turret with gunner, and this change goes against that which, is fine if they changed the whole tree to adapt to the change, but they just did a knee jerk change.

They needed to do the change properly and screwed it up, just like they did with operative, and for some reasonthe healing tree got the brunt of the damage. Poor decisions all round

 

Yah, when they talked in guild summit about class changes to Merc/Commando it sounded like single skill spam is gone.

When i saw 1.2 patch notes i /facepalmed lol

Spells: incompetence to deal with problems in adequate way.

Originally posted by gtnbtfte

Trooper/BH and Sages/inq have been far ahead of other classes in every aspect (DPS and healing specs).

If you play endgame and look around you at other players you will see it. I play smuggler and troopers/sages friends in my guild see that they are OP. No one is denying it because they see how other classes perform in ops every week.

BW is doing the right thing here and could spend pages going through specifics that we see every week but cba :P

BS, my guild cleared NmM and we are one of top PvP guilds on the server, was one of the first to clear HM FPs....

We do have a bit of insight on such things im afraid. The GW2 topic started to pop more and more on guildchat/TS/guild forums. You see where this is going.

And just a note, Sorc/Sage healing was OP due to bugs, that, of course, havent been fixed in 3+ months. Our ops ran with 1 sage 1 commando healer and THAT was best combo for healing. Only smuggler wasnt on that level of healing, but still could heal if necessary (on rare occasions our regular healer/s werent available they performed adequatly)

Originally posted by mikahr

 

And just a note, Sorc/Sage healing was OP due to bugs, that, of course, havent been fixed in 3+ months. Our ops ran with 1 sage 1 commando healer and THAT was best combo for healing. Only smuggler wasnt on that level of healing, but still could heal if necessary (on rare occasions our regular healer/s werent available they performed adequatly)

I see this as the reason the healing changes were done the way they were. They dont want healing to be the savior of the raid team, they want the raid team to think and work on all classes. They want healing to be 'performed adequatly' as you stated with the scoundrel, so they are bringing the other two in line with them. Instead of bringing that one up to a level above what they are looking for, they are bringing the other two down to where they feel they should have been all along. 

Right now as a sage I can heal circles around any damage hitting my team in HMs, on my soundrel it takes work by everyone on the team to survive them. My opinion, thats what they intended. No easy mode. 

Originally posted by Kaocan

I see this as the reason the healing changes were done the way they were. They dont want healing to be the savior of the raid team, they want the raid team to think and work on all classes. They want healing to be 'performed adequatly' as you stated with the scoundrel, so they are bringing the other two in line with them. Instead of bringing that one up to a level above what they are looking for, they are bringing the other two down to where they feel they should have been all along. 

 

Right now as a sage I can heal circles around any damage hitting my team in HMs, on my soundrel it takes work by everyone on the team to survive them. My opinion, thats what they intended. No easy mode. 

While its true that they want to make PvE content "harder" by nerfing overall healing, where does that leave PvP?

Nowhere. Sage/sorc healers will be unplayable in rated WZs because they 2,5s heal will be interrupted every time and they are most squishy and easiest to kill.

And how will merc/ops healers do in new healing regime is to be seen.

Nothing like reading selected parts of patch notes and then freaking out.

In 1.2, a lot of "under the hood" changes are also being made to the math behind the game; specifically how healing is done and how damage is calculated, both PvE and PvP. They're also taking a second pass at diminishing returns balancing for secondary stats.

Yes, endgame raiding will become harder which is exactly their stated purpose in making these changes. Well-geared, skilled Sages never ran out of Force. Likewise, Troopers and Ammo. They would like those resources to be limited, and this is their solution. Bioware is *not* the first game developer to make changes so that limited resources are actually limited.

The Public Test Server is up and available to all subscribers, so you could actually check out the changes and see what you thought, and possibly offer some informed feedback. I'd think that would be more satisfying than screaming about the sky falling...

Originally posted by Rollgunner

Nothing like reading selected parts of patch notes and then freaking out.

In 1.2, a lot of "under the hood" changes are also being made to the math behind the game; specifically how healing is done and how damage is calculated, both PvE and PvP. They're also taking a second pass at diminishing returns balancing for secondary stats.

Yes, endgame raiding will become harder which is exactly their stated purpose in making these changes. Well-geared, skilled Sages never ran out of Force. Likewise, Troopers and Ammo. They would like those resources to be limited, and this is their solution. Bioware is *not* the first game developer to make changes so that limited resources are actually limited.

The Public Test Server is up and available to all subscribers, so you could actually check out the changes and see what you thought, and possibly offer some informed feedback. I'd think that would be more satisfying than screaming about the sky falling...

 

Except people DO play on PTS:

a) Theres no "under the hood changes" or those are minimalistic like adjusting ratings for higher stats

or

b) everyone on PTS is a moron

AND

resurces are not limited and never were limited, my ammo/energy/heat/ammo....regens just fine at specified rate.

Play DDO to see what limied resources are.

Originally posted by mikahr

Except people DO play on PTS:

a) Theres no "under the hood changes" or those are minimalistic like adjusting ratings for higher stats

or

b) everyone on PTS is a moron

 

Well, either you can believe the developers or not...

Originally posted by nikoliath

I would say most of the data comes from metrics within the game rather than forum whining. As to the OP, it's their game and they know what they intended each class to do.

Juding by the state of the genre, I doubt any developer knows jack about their MMO

I actually do feel REALLY bad for smugglers.

First the new armor set, now a healing nerf? Ouch

Originally posted by eddieg50

Nerfs happen cause developer does research and feels one or more classes are either over powered or under- Nothing strange or unusual there. People get upset because they are used to their character being over powered and want to keep it that way

Ever notice people who complain that every time they pick a class it gets nerfed implying that they somehow always seem to be playing the OP classes.  lol.

This game is utter fail , I tried to become a fanboy but it is just bad I cant justify staying for another month. Im super bored but watching tv seems more fun than playing this game .

What game developers fail to realise is that POWER = FUN .  NERF = CANCELLED ACCOUNTS.

when I level up or gain a skill I want that skill to give me the feeling of power . If something does too much damage,  increase defense or hitpoints . Dont reduce ,   increase!

Originally posted by Rollgunner

Originally posted by mikahr

Except people DO play on PTS:

a) Theres no "under the hood changes" or those are minimalistic like adjusting ratings for higher stats

or

b) everyone on PTS is a moron

 

Well, either you can believe the developers or not...

 

"Let me also say that there's significant under the hood changes to stats, diminishing returns, itemization stat budget, a new tier of gear with different stats and more diverse mods, changes to PvE and PvP math, etc. That means that it is not possible to assess impact of class changes in regards to power gain or loss from the patch notes alone, people will have to go on PTS and actually play to get the full picture.” -Georg Zoeller

 

Or i can believe actual numbers and stuff on PTS and put aside PR talk.

The changes are far from class breaking. BW seem to at least research and test changes before applying them, unlike blizzard who constantly over-nerf/buff with every other patch.  Certain classes/specs were clearly better, now they are trying to fix that.

Originally posted by NasherUK

The changes are far from class breaking. BW seem to at least research and test changes before applying them, unlike blizzard who constantly over-nerf/buff with every other patch.  Certain classes/specs were clearly better, now they are trying to fix that.

If by fixing you mean;

make good class/specs better and bad class/specs worse

they you are completely right.

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Originally posted by mikahr

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Originally posted by NasherUK
The changes are far from class breaking. BW seem to at least research and test changes before applying them, unlike blizzard who constantly over-nerf/buff with every other patch.  Certain classes/specs were clearly better, now they are trying to fix that.

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If by fixing you mean;
make good class/specs better and bad class/specs worse
they you are completely right.

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Also tank assassin/shadows are severely flawed and I have no idea why Bioware doesn't see this since they haven't touched the class with 1.2.

Another thing, why are they making it that you can only use a stimpack once per fight? It's hard to get out of combat in pvp (stealthers gets an advantage) and this'll be a problem in Eterny Vault and Karraga's Palace.

Originally posted by sookster54

 

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^ lol that's exactly what BW did with classes in 1.2, made already good and powerful marauder better and made the least played operatives worse, and pyrotech/assault tree in BH/trooper- it's meant to be bursty and deadly provided you have heat/ammo to spare otherwise in 1.2 it's a waiting game on railshot/HIB procs and why nerf power shot on merc?.

Most likely some overly sensititve force sensitives who suck at PVP couldn't stand the fact they were getting their clocks cleaned by these classes. There was nothing wrong with Mercs. Their best abilities require them to stand in one place while firing off, which makes them very vulnerable to mobile classes. Any knight,agent, or similiar class can beat a Merc one on one.

 

Also tank assassin/shadows are severely flawed and I have no idea why Bioware doesn't see this since they haven't touched the class with 1.2.

I agree with you here. Tanks classes could use an increase.

Another thing, why are they making it that you can only use a stimpack once per fight? It's hard to get out of combat in pvp (stealthers gets an advantage) and this'll be a problem in Eterny Vault and Karraga's Palace.

Because one stim should be more than enough. Allowing too many turns the contest winner into whomever has the most stims;/buffs. Skill takes a back seat in those situations. The current level is fine.

Stealth players can pop out of sight, but troopers and bounty hunters can pop them back in.  It's not as bad as other games where Stealth classes can just pop in and out at will with no chance stop them.

There is a reason everyone plays a Sorcerer, you can lay on the hyperbole a mile thick but ballance is needed, rage quit, puke and die or ease down off the ledge and actually play the game.

1.2 the begining of the next wave of fps players moving on to something else, I hope.

Originally posted by rdrpappy

There is a reason everyone plays a Sorcerer, you can lay on the hyperbole a mile thick but ballance is needed, rage quit, puke and die or ease down off the ledge and actually play the game.

1.2 the begining of the next wave of fps players moving on to something else, I hope.

Uh yes, people quitting and FOTMs/bigger class imbalances will make the game better, i see it now, thanks for clarification.