I'm all for permadeath in mmos, but such systems are clearly very, very niche within this genre.

The interesting thing is that with the way mmos are going now, permadeath is actually far "less of an issue" in modern mmos than it was in "tradtional" ones. The main objection to PD in an mmorpg as opposed to say in an instant action game, is that it takes game time to progress your character in the former. If you die then all of that is lost.

Yet clearly these days mmorpgs are leaning towards less emphasis on time investment and are far more instant action orientated. With that being the case (and with it looking likely to continue) PD should not be anywhere near as much of an issue. But then PD seems pretty pointless in a game in which "getting back from scratch" takes zero time/effort.

I see a lot of talk about risk/reward etc. Regardless of the carrot and/or stick approach, it would take a pretty brave (read: foolish) person to deny that risk/thrill seeking is not an inherent part of human nature. Not everyone needs to have a risk element in an activity, but some clearly will derive added enjoyment from it.

Personally the challenge is the primary factor for me, but then added risk is the icing on the cake that improves the entertainment (more often than not).

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

prove me wrong.

I agree with the OP. MMOs are a niche (with the exception of WoW), which would make permadeath a super-niche.

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

FACE!

Feelings are mututal. There are millions of players world wide and consiering the amount of votes it is still in minority. So back at'cha buddy.

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.

BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

Originally posted by troublmaker

Permanent death is a relic that stayed with us from the coin popping arcade days.  The idea was death was going to get us to spend more quarters and maximize profits of the arcade owner.  It is by no means a fun game concept.  You can make games that make you feel as shitty about dying without resorting to permanent death.

So many people want permanent death until they die.  Then suddenly they are punching in walls

What game with permadeath did people die and start punching the walls?  How does that game compare to this one and why would they end with people punching walls?

 

What previous MMOs had permadeath, because people keep talking about them but I don't know any to compare things to.

I know, right. I wonder if we'll get an answer? Someone had mentioned playing one, maybe they'll tell us. Heaven and Earth?

NWN on AOL (the Stormfront studios version, not Bioware's.). The Triboar arena to be specific.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.

BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.

if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 

That's rubbish, because the actions of others are not driven by the same motivation as you in that case, so for example 2 equal looking people meeting where one has no death penalty will result in a fight because to one it won't matter, if both faced permadeath few would jump into a fight lightly.

you dont seem to be saying anything, no matter how many times i read your post.

your post certainly doesent comment on the points i made above.

Originally posted by MortisRex

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

Originally posted by troublmaker

Permanent death is a relic that stayed with us from the coin popping arcade days.  The idea was death was going to get us to spend more quarters and maximize profits of the arcade owner.  It is by no means a fun game concept.  You can make games that make you feel as shitty about dying without resorting to permanent death.

So many people want permanent death until they die.  Then suddenly they are punching in walls

What game with permadeath did people die and start punching the walls?  How does that game compare to this one and why would they end with people punching walls?

 

What previous MMOs had permadeath, because people keep talking about them but I don't know any to compare things to.

I know, right. I wonder if we'll get an answer? Someone had mentioned playing one, maybe they'll tell us. Heaven and Earth?

NWN on AOL (the Stormfront studios version, not Bioware's.). The Triboar arena to be specific.

 Diablo and Diablo 2 has "hardcore" permadeath modes both single player and multiplayer. And yes people did punch walls. Most of them did it at home when no one was looking but some did come to the forums to whine how the completely optional mechanic was somehow unfair in their particular case. It's a strange world.

Originally posted by Cruoris

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.

BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.

if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson

Originally posted by Cruoris

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 

That's rubbish, because the actions of others are not driven by the same motivation as you in that case, so for example 2 equal looking people meeting where one has no death penalty will result in a fight because to one it won't matter, if both faced permadeath few would jump into a fight lightly.

you dont seem to be saying anything, no matter how many times i read your post.

 

your post certainly doesent comment on the points i made above.

Originally posted by Cruoris

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.

BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.

if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson

 You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.  

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Cruoris

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.

BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.

if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson

 

The point is the mechanics are equal, in a permadeath game choosing to fight is a serious matter, if it is not for the other inhabitants then the mechanics are screwed, I am not sure how you can't see that because it is a blindingly obvious fact.

why are you speaking as tho PvP in a permadeath can only happen among equals?   the lions share of dead would be characters many times weaker than their killers.

in your idealized scenario, of two perfectly equal and consenting combatants, deleting their toons after death would serve a perfectly equal purpose.  whatever purpose that is, is a mystery to me, perhaps due to my blinding obvious lack of general comprehension.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.

BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.

if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson

 You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.  

death IS arbitrary and meaningless.  to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

I always find it humorous when I see permadeath threads around here, because an overwhelming amount of people in this community will hate, attack, and violently brutalize any thread, idea, or post even partially involving permadeath.

Not gonna take the time to wade through the crap because I know my opinion on this is flamebait.

Most gamers today are to much gaming wimps to enjoy a game that actually puts a challenge on them. If they can die a few times and continue like nothing happened they count themselves great gamers because they could reach the end fast. They call themselves hardcore becuase they play none stop, sure they die a few hundred times but they win they got to the end first.

What they do not seem to understand is that play style is wimpish with no real skill required. Show me someone that is level 30 in a game with out any need to respawn other than a game glitch and then I will be impressed. In EVE I have a character that has played for almost 3 years and still never lost a ship. In Reckoning my character on hard has not once been defeated, in Skyrim I now on my 3rd character ude to the others dying but have reached level 35 with this one and no death.

People do not want challenge in their games any more, they complain about it not being fun. They want everything handed to them, hold theier hand as they walk through the game. They min/max game stats and act more like accountants than gamers. They will play the game system, but ignore the actual game and claim they are hardcore of l33t.

REAL hardcore gamers like the challenge, like the fact that death has meaning and thus our play has meaning. So let they little wimps flame the hardcore, let them cry about it being to hard and how it is not fun. Let them pat each other on the back and talk about how cool they are becuase they finished the game in 3 days. In the en they are just little kids that hack their way to the end thinking they deserve some credit or praise when they are in fact wimps that could not handle a real challenge if they ever faced it.

The above is purely my opinion with no minicing of words, if it offends someone then I am sorry for that but my advice is to listen to the Eagles song, "find your inner child and kick it's little ass".

GET OVER IT!

Originally posted by Mopar63

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

I always find it humorous when I see permadeath threads around here, because an overwhelming amount of people in this community will hate, attack, and violently brutalize any thread, idea, or post even partially involving permadeath.

Not gonna take the time to wade through the crap because I know my opinion on this is flamebait.

Most gamers today are to much gaming wimps to enjoy a game that actually puts a challenge on them. If they can die a few times and continue like nothing happened they count themselves great gamers because they could reach the end fast. They call themselves hardcore becuase they play none stop, sure they die a few hundred times but they win they got to the end first.

What they do not seem to understand is that play style is wimpish with no real skill required. Show me someone that is level 30 in a game with out any need to respawn other than a game glitch and then I will be impressed. In EVE I have a character that has played for almost 3 years and still never lost a ship. In Reckoning my character on hard has not once been defeated, in Skyrim I now on my 3rd character ude to the others dying but have reached level 35 with this one and no death.

People do not want challenge in their games any more, they complain about it not being fun. They want everything handed to them, hold theier hand as they walk through the game. They min/max game stats and act more like accountants than gamers. They will play the game system, but ignore the actual game and claim they are hardcore of l33t.

REAL hardcore gamers like the challenge, like the fact that death has meaning and thus our play has meaning. So let they little wimps flame the hardcore, let them cry about it being to hard and how it is not fun. Let them pat each other on the back and talk about how cool they are becuase they finished the game in 3 days. In the en they are just little kids that hack their way to the end thinking they deserve some credit or praise when they are in fact wimps that could not handle a real challenge if they ever faced it.

The above is purely my opinion with no minicing of words, if it offends someone then I am sorry for that but my advice is to listen to the Eagles song, "find your inner child and kick it's little ass".

GET OVER IT!

 

 

 

 

 

run away alot, do you?

Originally posted by Cruoris

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.

BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.

if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson

 You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.  

death IS arbitrary and meaningless.  to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.

 Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable and meaningful.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Cruoris

Every MMO in history has a  perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.

 

just delete your character when you die.  if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.

 

since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.

 

prove me wrong.

 The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.

BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.

if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson

 You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.  

death IS arbitrary and meaningless.  to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.

 Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.

so, we are talking about competiton then?  chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way.  there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it. 

is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be designed to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game.  never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.

  stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and if level or individual power is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate. permadeath games, at their heart, can be only about serving up the thrill of waiting out the clock.

unless we are talking about some bizzarro non pvp perma death.