Pay to Win is any possible advantage that can be sold in a cash shop.  XP-potions, faction gain potions, travelling potions and so on.. If my goal is to have the first max level character on the server they certainly helps me win. Or if I hate grinding and/or want fastest possible character progress for other reasons.

Pay to win or not depends on your goals. On your playstyle. Its not a definition set in stone. But any and all advantages can feel like pay to win for some players. Of course if the advantages means nothing to you you may not think they are p2w. But try so see it from some other players point of view in that case. Time saving advantages are certainly p2w for some...

Advantages like health potions, resistance potions, damage potions or run speed potions are worse. Any stat boost in general is terrible. More so if they are temporary and last for one hour. In that case you spend money over and over. And if you use most or all of them all of the time it will normally become really expensive. But any enhancement that improves your character or items is bad for the same reason. Even if its a permanent one time buy. Very offensive p2w, IMO.

The real problem is that everything, content and mechanics, will be designed to make you feel that you need to use the cash shop. Typically they add more grind with every patch and at the same time add items to the shop that helps you avoid the grind.

Why? They are a company. Not a charity...They want profit. Thats why they want you to use the shop as often as possible. Of course, if the cash grab becomes to obvious they will lose players. So they will need to be careful not to cross that line. But some players will not be able to accept anything. For them any advantage will be more than they can stomach.

Some content could be designed and balanced so that you need to buy boosts in the shop to win. Or it is at least very difficult without help from the shop. If boosts can be used in PvP they are of course a must have if you want to compete.

Then it is very much a slippery slope. It may not be so bad at first when a new game is released. But when they feel they need more profit the solution will be to add more shop items. Typically things that some players never believed they would add when they game was new.

Originally posted by brody71

Originally posted by Cromica

Originally posted by brody71

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

And with GW2 not having a gear grind we already know this isn't going to be a problem.

but gw2 does a gear grind doesnt it?  the armor sets you can get to make your character look unique.  and if the cash shop sells karma boosts, it allows people to obtain that gear faster.  so the shop may not be pay to win in the traditional sense, but it is pay to get an advantage.

Looks do not equal an advantage

using a booster to get the look is.

P2W is a gameplay advantage, what you look like does not give any gameplay advantage at all.

I have played a few real pay to win korean grind games and in those games in a pvp fight if you didnt have items from the shop you stood ZERO chance to win. that to me is pay to win.

also levels made a big difference and the grind was horrible so paying for double xp items was a must, and if u didnt do it then it was going to take you YEARS to max level and i mean years of grinding not quest. to me that is pay to win.

if the shop has items that just look different or add a few stats that arnt game breaking, well i can care less. if the game isnt a horrible grind and its actually fun to level up and play then i could care less about xp items as well.  most games these days arnt hard to level up in anyways so i dont see this one being that much different.

the only real advantage for xp items will probably be for people who want to powerlevel up alts faster because they have already played most of the content and dont care to do it all over again.

untill the game comes out and we really see whats in the shop its all speculation, and we can only hope the beta test of these items can help them decide what should and shouldnt be in the shop.

Originally posted by Magnetia

I think ultimately it's a question of how far players will go in order to get ahead. Some players will be willing to spend money to lvl faster. Others choose to pour their time into the game instead.

Another question comes to mind is 'what is winning?'

Is winning getting to 80 first?

Is winning having the rarest gear?

Is winning having the BEST gear?

Is winning being able to win every single pvp match?

Is winning being the first person to have finished all the content?

Is winning being able to singlehandedly win W v W?

 

So far I feel the cash shop has no item that directly screams out  'A player with this will be more powerful than any without.'

One can only guess that res orbs and perfect repairs (I don't think armour gets broken in PVP, that seems silly) are not avilable for use in PVP.

Transmutation stones - I see what you did there Anet. So we've heard we can transfer armour stats easily but it seems like getting the weapon to look the way you want it to is going to cost money. 

Of course there is the ongoing debate as to whether the XP boosters are convenience or power. From other discussions here the conclusion seems to inevitably be - Over time the playerbase will always even out in terms of level. Gear disparity on the other hand is something we've yet to get solid answers on. 

There are a few money grabbing items like mystic keys and secret boxes but I feel those are simply gambling tools which we have all grown to love and hate at the same time. (I want to see what is in this box but I'm never buying that stupid key...maybe just one key.)

If you believe whats on redit the boxes contain boosts and whatnot from the cash shop or crafting mats. Your paying 125 gems(key cost) for a chance at a 150 gem cash shop item or some mats. 

My biggest concern with those boxes is they'll be like how they were in STO and when I say that I don't mean the Galor class ship. I mean how it was almost like spam in there frequency in how they drop and they fill up your inventory its like a constant in game add in a ever so subtle way. 

Originally posted by Cromica

Originally posted by brody71

Originally posted by Cromica

Originally posted by brody71

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

And with GW2 not having a gear grind we already know this isn't going to be a problem.

but gw2 does a gear grind doesnt it?  the armor sets you can get to make your character look unique.  and if the cash shop sells karma boosts, it allows people to obtain that gear faster.  so the shop may not be pay to win in the traditional sense, but it is pay to get an advantage.

Looks do not equal an advantage

using a booster to get the look is.

P2W is a gameplay advantage, what you look like does not give any gameplay advantage at all.

Exactly my point. Who gives a shit if you look different? As long as we're playing on a level playing field stat wise I don't care if you look different to me. The only unfair advantage would be if you had gear that gave you more health or allowed you to deal more damage than I can, all other things being equal.

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

 

Exactly my point. Who gives a shit if you look different? As long as we're playing on a level playing field stat wise I don't care if you look different to me. The only unfair advantage would be if you had gear that gave you more health or allowed you to deal more damage than I can, all other things being equal.

You might not care but a lot of GW1 players do.

Esp those who played GW1 for that 'unique' looking gear. For a lot of people that was their 'endgame' in GW1.

I can see why they might be upset about the Cash-shop.

Their playing style was valid in GW1 and not-so-valid in GW2.

You might think 'only stats matter' (I do as well) but there are others who don't. Both are equally valid playstyles.

I didn't find their 'find uniqually visual gear' endgame fun but that doesn't mean I can't understand where they are coming from.

Originally posted by evicton

Originally posted by Magnetia

I think ultimately it's a question of how far players will go in order to get ahead. Some players will be willing to spend money to lvl faster. Others choose to pour their time into the game instead.

Another question comes to mind is 'what is winning?'

Is winning getting to 80 first?

Is winning having the rarest gear?

Is winning having the BEST gear?

Is winning being able to win every single pvp match?

Is winning being the first person to have finished all the content?

Is winning being able to singlehandedly win W v W?

 

So far I feel the cash shop has no item that directly screams out  'A player with this will be more powerful than any without.'

One can only guess that res orbs and perfect repairs (I don't think armour gets broken in PVP, that seems silly) are not avilable for use in PVP.

Transmutation stones - I see what you did there Anet. So we've heard we can transfer armour stats easily but it seems like getting the weapon to look the way you want it to is going to cost money. 

Of course there is the ongoing debate as to whether the XP boosters are convenience or power. From other discussions here the conclusion seems to inevitably be - Over time the playerbase will always even out in terms of level. Gear disparity on the other hand is something we've yet to get solid answers on. 

There are a few money grabbing items like mystic keys and secret boxes but I feel those are simply gambling tools which we have all grown to love and hate at the same time. (I want to see what is in this box but I'm never buying that stupid key...maybe just one key.)

If you believe whats on redit the boxes contain boosts and whatnot from the cash shop or crafting mats. Your paying 125 gems(key cost) for a chance at a 150 gem cash shop item or some mats. 

My biggest concern with those boxes is they'll be like how they were in STO and when I say that I don't mean the Galor class ship. I mean how it was almost like spam in there frequency in how they drop and they fill up your inventory its like a constant in game add in a ever so subtle way. 

This is also something that concerns me. My guess is that at the end of a secret area there will be two chests. A normal one and a mystic one. You'll always get a normal chest prize and the option to get extra loot from it. Here's hoping XD

The loot bag and the mystic keys are the biggest question I think. Just what kind of loot comes from those things? There isn't enough solid information out there to determine if they have walked down the path of pay-2-win. I personally believe they are going to expand the cash shop as much as possible while adhering to their original statements about not selling power.

Originally posted by jpnz

You might not care but a lot of GW1 players do.

Esp those who played GW1 for that 'unique' looking gear. For a lot of people that was their 'endgame' in GW1.

I can see why they might be upset about the Cash-shop.

Their playing style was valid in GW1 and not-so-valid in GW2.

 

You might think 'only stats matter' (I do as well) but there are others who don't. Both are equally valid playstyles.

I didn't find their 'find uniqually visual gear' endgame fun but that doesn't mean I can't understand where they are coming from.

I can see where you're coming from but does that constitute pay to win? What are they winning? The fashion stakes? At the end of the day it's not really about playstyle, but about buying an unfair advantage. I think that has to define pay to win. I don't see how buying a cosmetic item, a change of appearance, results in an unfair advantage.

I really don't see why anyone would be upset by that. I'm sorry I just don't get it. Aion did it. They regularly had limited offer outfits you could buy and it was a skin that you applied to your armour. You kept your stats but changed the look. Loads of people bought them but I never saw anyone complain about it. Now, admittedly most of them were female avatars running around in bikinis. Wierd? Yeah, very. Game breaking? Hardly.

lets say it like this..if you have 1000000000000000000000000000 gold at GW2....you  still dont mean anything...you want  good gear?  BoP from instances or from PvP..

saying alot of gold buys you things like skills and gear is not true, unless you mean no skills and something equal to green general vendor gear in wow? then ur right

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

 

I can see where you're coming from but does that constitute pay to win? What are they winning? The fashion stakes? At the end of the day it's not really about playstyle, but about buying an unfair advantage. I think that has to define pay to win. I don't see how buying a cosmetic item, a change of appearance, results in an unfair advantage.

 

I really don't see why anyone would be upset by that. I'm sorry I just don't get it. Aion did it. They regularly had limited offer outfits you could buy and it was a skin that you applied to your armour. You kept your stats but changed the look. Loads of people bought them but I never saw anyone complain about it. Now, admittedly most of them were female avatars running around in bikinis. Wierd? Yeah, very. Game breaking? Hardly.

I think it is about playstyle. Whether anyone think you should play that way is another issue.

Unlike Aion; GW1 was about 'visually' attractive gear at endgame for a lot of people. They will be upset and since they are the ones who played GW1 the longest (generally) they will have a bigger voice in the GW1 community; hence the backlash right now.

I'm sure NCSOFT did the numbers and the backlash/boycott shenanigans will happen (they are all buying GW2 anyway, who are they kidding! :P) and ANet will make more money. THE END.

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

 

Now, let's define what "Pay-To-Win" means real quick so we're all on the same page. Universaly, "Pay-To-Win" from my gaming "career" is as follows:

 

Pay-To-Win: Is a method of premium content delivered primarily through a "Cash Shop" that allows transactions to occur using REAL world money for virtual goods available in an online product such as, but not limited to, MMORPGs, FPS, RPGs, and SIM products. The difference between a non-PayToWin cash shop & a P2W cash shop is that the P2W cash shop allows drastic statistic, or otherwise, "advantages" to be gained by the purchaser over other players whom don't/can't use the cash shop otherwise.

 

People need to realize this

Because I dont see anyone bitching about buying Expansion packs in P2P games such as WoW (premium content AND gameplay advantages). Because that is P2W in my opinion if I start to apply that twisted logic people use here to create the worst GW2 scenarios

Originally posted by timeraider

lets say it like this..if you have 1000000000000000000000000000 gold at GW2....you  still dont mean anything...you want  good gear?  BoP from instances or from PvP..

saying alot of gold buys you things like skills and gear is not true, unless you mean no skills and something equal to green general vendor gear in wow? then ur right

Except it doesn't work this way at all, crafted gear will be equal to the best gear in the game. No Better No worse.. So gold will allow you to obtain the best gear in game from a statistical point.

In this game BoP from instances are not better then green vendor gear. Nor will anything you can buy with glory give you better gear stat wise.

Now from my perspective that doesn't make it P2W... But thats something you should be aware of going into this game.

Once you buy your green vendor gear there isn't any better gear to get.

Originally posted by Pigozz

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

 

Now, let's define what "Pay-To-Win" means real quick so we're all on the same page. Universaly, "Pay-To-Win" from my gaming "career" is as follows:

 

Pay-To-Win: Is a method of premium content delivered primarily through a "Cash Shop" that allows transactions to occur using REAL world money for virtual goods available in an online product such as, but not limited to, MMORPGs, FPS, RPGs, and SIM products. The difference between a non-PayToWin cash shop & a P2W cash shop is that the P2W cash shop allows drastic statistic, or otherwise, "advantages" to be gained by the purchaser over other players whom don't/can't use the cash shop otherwise.

 

People need to realize this

Because I dont see anyone bitching about buying Expansion packs in P2P games such as WoW (premium content AND gameplay advantages). Because that is P2W in my opinion if I start to apply that twisted logic people use here to create the worst GW2 scenarios

The biggest 'issue' is that GW1 endgame was about the visually appealing gear for a lot of people.

ANet has changed that for GW2.

I don't have any issue with CS or GW2 but that doesn't mean I can't see why those people would be upset.

Paytowin mean nothing, it is made up by players and internet communities to counter the false advertising behind the free2play claim all the game companies use to "sell" their games. All freetoplay games use some kind of pay to win mechanism, so use that aspect more than others.
 
All cash shop want you to spend money in them, no matter how they are built. You can stretch and say that selling cosmetic is a version of winning, for a lot of people looking super cool is a form of winning a game, because clearly developers are used to make end game item look better than the low level. Being rich was definitely a winning aspect in some old school mmo like UO or Eve and many others, so yes buying gem and getting millions of ingame gold, can also definitely be seen as winning a game, for people that have richness as a goal for their character, and a lot of people have such goal when they play mmo. In fact i personally think good mmo are those that let you reach all those goals that are not just max level/max stat, but give you a wide choice of goals.
 
So really this discussion is very much subject to personal opinions. The only thing that is a fact is that players began to call p2w games that are advertised as f2p, to make people understand they aren't as much free as they claim they are.

Originally posted by Requiamer

Paytowin mean nothing, it is made up by players and internet communities to counter the false advertising behind the free2play claim all the game companies use to "sell" their games. All freetoplay games use some kind of pay to win mechanism, so use that aspect more than others.
 
All cash shop want you to spend money in them, no matter how they are built. You can stretch and say that selling cosmetic is a version of winning, for a lot of people looking super cool is a form of winning a game, because clearly developers are used to make end game item look better than the low level. Being rich was definitely a winning aspect in some old school mmo like UO or Eve and many others, so yes buying gem and getting millions of ingame gold, can also definitely be seen as winning a game, for people that have richness as a goal for their character, and a lot of people have such goal when they play mmo. In fact i personally think good mmo are those that let you reach all those goals that are not just max level/max stat, but give you a wide choice of goals.
 
So really this discussion is very much subject to personal opinions. The only thing that is a fact is that players began to call p2w games that are advertised as f2p, to make people understand they aren't as much free as they claim they are.

You're correct to a point. However, at that point is where people really get up-in-arms about certain items. Such as "stat boosters", "skill boosters", "hp boosters", etc etc that give you a straight statistical advantage over your opponent when you opponent cannot spend the same $50 in a week in the cash shop.

However, I wanted to clarify that I do NOT consider "Cosmetic" items Pay-To-Win. I merely despise companies that make you pay for content (ie: subscription) only to force you to pay for cosmetic items AGAIN after you've already paid for them via a $15/month sub.

If ArenaNet wants to be so drastic & innovative with their gameplay they REALLY need to be innovative with how they handle their Cash Shop. People will be able to tell right away if the game is P2W once beta & release comes about.

If it enhances your stats in ANY WAY such as

Crafting stones / items that give your weapon + (Insert number) or significantly increase the likelihood of success in crafting then it is P2W in my opinion. 

Exclusive cash shop armors / weapons = P2W

Exclusive Cash shop pets that have significant utility in PvP OR PvE content = P2W

Anything at all that changes a numerical value that has any significant effect in the competitiveness or ability to progress through the game  = P2W in my opinion. 

This includes EXP boosts and Drop rate increase items. 

Which likely means I will not be buying GW2. 

What is not P2W in my opinion?

Costumes that are purely cosmetic

Hair styles 

Character re modeling

Additional Character slots

Cosmetic pets 

Name changes

Mini Content packs ( things like a mini DLC adventure etc.)

Is GW2 Pay to win? That depends on who you ask and who's opinion it is. Pay 2 win is  a very subjective ideology and every individual has his or her own definition of what it is.