This looks like a shitty facebook game. This just tells me that people who like permadeath like shitty games.

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

So what about a game that had an equal reward for the risk of permadeath, what would most people want then?.

 Eve's death penalty is for immersion, there no reward, so there must be a way to avoid it.

So permadeath is the death of your char, his family, his possesions, his land, everything vanishes if your char dies permantly, and no trace of you exists in the game world anymore. Otherwise its not real permadeath, its fake permadeath like real life is?

Character progression is the only real progression. If all your poseesions and land ect stayed and just your char died (like RL) it's not real permadeath?

I assume unless you take wow and add permadeath as the death penalty, then its not real permadeath or it's not a real MMO. 

Most players dislike permadeath because it erases progress.  No amount of risk vs. reward is going to matter to those players.  And besides, "risk" vs. reward is never really what it should be about.  Challenge vs. reward is a vastly superior game structure.  Do something really challenging: get rewarded.

Also these types of permadeath are nothing like real life.  In real life you don't reincarnate and come back to use your possessions.  You die and your possessions are meaningless.

Whereas in a game like Haven & Hearth, losing your character doesn't wipe away your entire "presence" in the game.  It only wipes away the character.  In H&H the character is only worth about half the value of your overall time investment in the game (obviously as a game lets you retain more of your overall value between deaths, the popularity of that type of death system increases.)

Any game which completely wipes character progression has true permadeath.  This should be obvious.

But like I said, if players are investing 8+ hours into these characters and having it completely wiped you're left with an extremely small audience interested in that sort of thing (not worth doing at all unless you can do it as a very cheap and optional game feature.)

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

 

Most players dislike permadeath because it erases progress.  No amount of risk vs. reward is going to matter to those players.  And besides, "risk" vs. reward is never really what it should be about.  Challenge vs. reward is a vastly superior game structure.  Do something really challenging: get rewarded.

 

 On a side note I mainly disagree with the statement about risk vrs reward and challenge vrs reward. In my opinion there is no challenge without risk. The greater the risk the greater the potential challenge.

While risk is not in and of itself challenge I think the two go hand in hand. 

On to the more relative topic at hand on permadeath. If a game is to have permadeath the game must be built from the ground up with all of the strutures of the game built around that concept. Permadeath in a modern day typical MMO simply will not work. A permadeath game can work, however, if the game is built properly with the permadeath idea as a  key structure to the game from the initial design phase. I would also go more for a limited set of lives in a permadeath game over a simple one death and your character is over sort of thing.

In a general concept I would shoot for a completely open pvp environment with a limted set of lives in which a starting character has enough power to at least challenge an established character to one degree or another. Any abuse by one character or group of characters would be simple to overcome by simply getting the rest of the server to concentrate on wiping the bad people out. You could have a few safe zones to respawn in to prevent people from spawn camping etc.

While I do agree that the general concept of permadeath is primarily a niche game, I think a well constructed permadeath game could draw in as big numbers as any other triple A MMO. Unfortunately the current state of development seems to be very uncreative at the moment so we are not likely to see anything like that come out anytime in the near future.

Originally posted by jinxxed0

This looks like a shitty facebook game. This just tells me that people who like permadeath like shitty games.

Damn that was harsh lol.

Originally posted by Maelkor

 On a side note I mainly disagree with the statement about risk vrs reward and challenge vrs reward. In my opinion there is no challenge without risk. The greater the risk the greater the potential challenge.

While risk is not in and of itself challenge I think the two go hand in hand. 

In IWBTG, death is an instant reset which costs you 2-120 seconds.  But you will only advance through near-flawless play.  No risk.  Insane challenge.

So risk has absolutely nothing to do with challenge.  You just like risk.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

So what about a game that had an equal reward for the risk of permadeath, what would most people want then?.

 Eve's death penalty is for immersion, there no reward, so there must be a way to avoid it.

So permadeath is the death of your char, his family, his possesions, his land, everything vanishes if your char dies permantly, and no trace of you exists in the game world anymore. Otherwise its not real permadeath, its fake permadeath like real life is?

Character progression is the only real progression. If all your poseesions and land ect stayed and just your char died (like RL) it's not real permadeath?

I assume unless you take wow and add permadeath as the death penalty, then its not real permadeath or it's not a real MMO. 

Most players dislike permadeath because it erases progress.  No amount of risk vs. reward is going to matter to those players.  And besides, "risk" vs. reward is never really what it should be about.  Challenge vs. reward is a vastly superior game structure.  Do something really challenging: get rewarded.

Also these types of permadeath are nothing like real life.  In real life you don't reincarnate and come back to use your possessions.  You die and your possessions are meaningless.

Whereas in a game like Haven & Hearth, losing your character doesn't wipe away your entire "presence" in the game.  It only wipes away the character.  In H&H the character is only worth about half the value of your overall time investment in the game (obviously as a game lets you retain more of your overall value between deaths, the popularity of that type of death system increases.)

Any game which completely wipes character progression has true permadeath.  This should be obvious.

But like I said, if players are investing 8+ hours into these characters and having it completely wiped you're left with an extremely small audience interested in that sort of thing (not worth doing at all unless you can do it as a very cheap and optional game feature.)

Well, if complete wipes as a death penalty is the only true permadeath to you, then i guess there's not much else to learn from you atm. All your points seem to stuck there.

When you reroll in a permadeath game are you reincarnating? In real life you dont as you said. So wouldnt the only true permadeath be you cant even play anymore?

Like I said if you'll only take the worst implementaion as being 'true', then that's all I need to know i guess. thanks for the reasonable response though.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Maelkor

 On a side note I mainly disagree with the statement about risk vrs reward and challenge vrs reward. In my opinion there is no challenge without risk. The greater the risk the greater the potential challenge.

While risk is not in and of itself challenge I think the two go hand in hand. 

In IWBTG, death is an instant reset which costs you 2-120 seconds.  But you will only advance through near-flawless play.  No risk.  Insane challenge.

So risk has absolutely nothing to do with challenge.  You just like risk.

When you add rewards you add risk automatically dont you?

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

Well, if complete wipes as a death penalty is the only true permadeath to you, then i guess there's not much else to learn from you atm. All your points seem to stuck there.

When you reroll in a permadeath game are you reincarnating? In real life you dont as you said. So wouldnt the only true permadeath be you cant even play anymore?

Like I said if you'll only take the worst implementaion as being 'true', then that's all I need to know i guess. thanks for the reasonable response though. 

Re-rolling in a true permadeath game is just re-rolling.  You're not effectively "reincarnating" since you'll have zero claim on anything you did in the former life.

If you did, it wouldn't be permadeath (just like it wouldn't IRL if that sort of thing were possible.)

Locking players out of the game completely would also be true permadeath, but it's enough if players simply lose everything when they re-roll.

But why talk about the worst types of permadeath that nobody really wants?

Just because some types of permadeath aren't "true" permadeath doesn't make them bad.  Entirely the opposite, actually.  The less "true", the better!

Sorry no offense but that game looks like a 1990's retro nintendo console game.  I know graphics isnt everything but that looks bad.

Ohh and FFA PvP and Perma Death will always be niche, doesnt make it bad just not mainstream.

@OP

So Permadeath isn't niche because like 5000 people donated money?

Do you know what niche means?

Originally posted by Gajari

@OP

So Permadeath isn't niche because like 5000 people donated money?

Do you know what niche means?

Not to mention they might donate to themself.  You know how people are.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

Well, if complete wipes as a death penalty is the only true permadeath to you, then i guess there's not much else to learn from you atm. All your points seem to stuck there.

When you reroll in a permadeath game are you reincarnating? In real life you dont as you said. So wouldnt the only true permadeath be you cant even play anymore?

Like I said if you'll only take the worst implementaion as being 'true', then that's all I need to know i guess. thanks for the reasonable response though. 

Re-rolling in a true permadeath game is just re-rolling.  You're not effectively "reincarnating" since you'll have zero claim on anything you did in the former life.

If you did, it wouldn't be permadeath (just like it wouldn't IRL if that sort of thing were possible.)

Locking players out of the game completely would also be true permadeath, but it's enough if players simply lose everything when they re-roll.

But why talk about the worst types of permadeath that nobody really wants?

Just because some types of permadeath aren't "true" permadeath doesn't make them bad.  Entirely the opposite, actually.  The less "true", the better!

You cant talk about the lesser implementations. Everyone seems to think you mean wow with permadeath. Anyways.

In real life you arent spawned at a spawn point your born into a family, who have claim to the posession their family left them and so on. So you dont start off with zero claim to anything either. It can work both ways.

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

When you add rewards you add risk automatically dont you?

Doesn't seem like it's risk unless it's something "bet" beforehand that you can lose.  Such as flying any EVE ship into any battle.

Both a "bet" and failure to earn a reward are penalties for failure, but it doesn't seem like the reward part is "risk" because you haven't actually risked anything.

Not that I mind.  For me the failure to earn the reward is penalty enough for failing the encounter.  It encourages me to rise to the challenge, and the game becomes the challenges (which are hopefully interesting enough to keep me playing.)

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Sorry no offense but that game looks like a 1990's retro nintendo console game.  I know graphics isnt everything but that looks bad.

 

 

Ohh and FFA PvP and Perma Death will always be niche, doesnt make it bad just not mainstream.

Do you know what FFA PvP is?  Are you confusing it that with full loot?  You do realize that if not for factions, WoW would be FFA PvP right?  You do realize that AoC(Age of Conan) is FFA PvP right?  FFA PvP is not niche at all.  Most games just offer faction PvP because it gives players a common enemy.

But yeah, perma-death will always be niche.  It doesn't matter how you implement it.  So, blah blah blah about everything else in this thread.  Ultimately, it's niche.  Oh well?

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Gajari

@OP

So Permadeath isn't niche because like 5000 people donated money?

Do you know what niche means?

Not to mention they might donate to themself.  You know how people are.

True, so go do the same for a themepark game and see how many you get. Probably around the same number. It means nothing except there are people who would like a different experience.

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

You cant talk about the lesser implementations. Everyone seems to think you mean wow with permadeath. Anyways.

Er, but the traits I've described of acceptable permadeath systems are the opposite of the way WOW is built.

• Shallow progression (characters live less than 4 hours)
• Character death only kills the character, but most of the progression exists apart from the character.

Why would you think I'm talking about WOW?

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

When you add rewards you add risk automatically dont you?

Doesn't seem like it's risk unless it's something "bet" beforehand that you can lose.  Such as flying any EVE ship into any battle.

Both a "bet" and failure to earn a reward are penalties for failure, but it doesn't seem like the reward part is "risk" because you haven't actually risked anything.

Not that I mind.  For me the failure to earn the reward is penalty enough for failing the encounter.  It encourages me to rise to the challenge, and the game becomes the challenges (which are hopefully interesting enough to keep me playing.)

Ya i agree. but if you fail to get the reward you've wasted your time, or you'll have to devote more. Less to devote to another area,  Will you waste your time night after night to complete the challange? No reward except personal satisfaction out of game.  time is money right? If it was fun i would, but i end up leveling slower due to that. Most wouldnt i assume.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by troublmaker

Permanent death is a relic that stayed with us from the coin popping arcade days.  The idea was death was going to get us to spend more quarters and maximize profits of the arcade owner.  It is by no means a fun game concept.  You can make games that make you feel as shitty about dying without resorting to permanent death.

So many people want permanent death until they die.  Then suddenly they are punching in walls

Uhm, no. Permadeath is from most pen and paper RPGs.

It work very well there since during a year of P&P you never get into that many fights while you more or less combat all the time in MMOs. You also don't crash during play there, one bluescreen and you would be down in a MMO.

Permadeath works in MMOs, CCP will prove it in WoDO. There the player who is the prince of the region can call a bloodhunt, which is p0ermadeath during certain circumstances. That is not something that will happen because windows crashes or you have bad luck.

But permadeath al'a Salem will never get that many players, you just put in too much work and if something stupid happens that will make many players to quit the game.

Permadeath would also work in a game with very little combat  or in none combat game where only accidents kill players. But there are few MMOs like that. If EA ever tries a new Sims online it would work there for example.

I thought you "crashed" if someone slipped ya a Mickey, then proceeded to RP your character as some cross dressing homdicidal maniac, just waiting to take over all your possessions.

Not that it ever happened to me or anything.

OK I only ever played PnP once, but with my friends in HS, some wild shit could of occured. Saw one of my friends do an "elevator ride" once, when he dropped to the ground, he got a rug burn on his forehead from stretching out on the carpet while out of it. We razzed his ass for nearly a yr over that incident.

Man,  young folks can be mean. Being tagged with the nickname "fo-head" probably wasnt so cool when you are on the receiving end. Anywho.......

Seriously though you pretty much nailed it Loke....too much shit can happen in online games. Perma death is a mechanic just screaming out "Let the bitching begin". I couldnt even imagine what it would be like in an online game after the person has several years invested. You can bet they would be suing the company.

The one thing about FFA is players get to keep their toon, and folks still lose their minds. I gotta say though, it would make for some epic flames if a company was to make a MMO with this mechanic.

i have trouble believing 5 people donated to that sack of shit, but 7000?  ...damn

As has been said there are gradation of permadeath:

1. You die, lose everything and are perma-banned from the game: 1 shot, 1 Life!
2. You die, lose everything and have to create a new character again.
3. You die, lose everything that was at risk at the time of death or potentially can be ransacked and so lose xp/progress/belongings ie you have to salvage your corpse to avoid loosing even more.
4. You die, lose a token value of something to add some sting to the experience and port back to a rez site.
5. You die, and just have a debuff or timer to remind you you died and should not try to replicate the experience!
6. You die, but rez back instantly ad infinitum.

etc...

FTL = Roguelike:

• Short games
• "Open world" exploration
• Random chance
• Perma-death
• Repeat systems with depth to reactions/choices in emerging circumstances that allow you to increase the judgement of your choices to "hi-score further"/level boss/xp up more
• Frenetic gameplay mixed with thrilling escape from death, mixed with balancing your resources for different types of enemy/dangers you are trying to anticipate/avoid/defeat.

Many Shades of Grief