Perma Death = no subs, no income, unempolyment line for Devs.

Originally posted by Corehaven

Originally posted by rojo6934

i dont know much about this game other than its from CCP and it has vampires.

So.... permadeath.... that means i will ONLY play this game if its F2P. I have no interest in pay monthly to build a character to max lvl and epic stuff then bam!!!!! permadeath.

edit: it seems theres no levels so still, any kind of progression is broken with permadeath, not for me

Well if you played EvE you'd know there were several severe goofs you had to commit to dying permanently and while the game does have perma death, its rare and some what unlikely.  Usually perma death in that game happens like this.  Ship explodes but you have an escape pod at that point.  Very fast little pod.  If that gets blown up you die, but you should have a clone you've set up.  You are transferred to said clone and all is well (except for the loss of the ship).  Now that you are in your new clone body you need to make a NEW clone as a back up.  Forget to make a new clone at any point and you die again, you are gone forever. 

 

Sorry if you already had all that info in your noggin. 

 

Anyways I cant really imagine CCP just having a whack and you're dead forever mechanic here.  Id expect death to be a complex and really only attainable by severe player mistake.  At least with EvE there was an always an easy back up.  You just needed to remember to keep up with that and it was very easy to do. 

 

EDIT: At 30:55 the question on perma death was asked.  He says something like, " Regarding permadeath, the Prince of a city (which would be an actual player) calls for a blood hunt, then you can be killed permanently".  Just paraphrasing there.  So....respect the Prince I guess.  : P

Not sure that ever happened in eve, I know for the last 4 years at least there has been no such thing as perma-death in eve. Even if you lose a pod twice, and forget to get a new clone, all you lose is some skillpoints, not sure the exact ammount, I think it's your highest sp skill is wiped, but you don't by any means have to start over.

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

This seems to have become twisted and people are saying the Prince will be affected by Permadeath. That's not what was said. Watch the linked youtube file and it's very clear. The Prince can call a Blood Hunt on someone, probably for a major infraction of the Masquerade (that's my best guess), and that player can then be hunted down and killed. Nobody said that only Princes can be killed.

 

They clearly said that a Blood Hunt can result in permadeath, and only a Prince can call a Blood Hunt.

 

It's amazing how quickly a very simple statement can be twisted into something else.

 

My quote was from here.

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/24/world-of-darkness-presented-at-eve-fanfest-2012/

 

The two are not mutually exclusive, it is possible a prince may only call a blood hunt on another prince for example.

I disagree. A prince will call Blood Hunt on minions under his control for serious transgressions. It's a form of punishment.

A Prince wanting another Prince bumped off would be classed as an assassination. They're very different things and used in very different situations.

 

Edit: Having read the massively article, he's got it wrong. Go watch the youtube clip and listen to the founder of CCP. Right from the horses mouth, not some journo who obviously missed the point.

 

It doesn't say who it can be called on, he doesn't mention minions, he just says he can call it on you. The massively article put it in quotes so that usually means someone said those words. I guess we need more info from CCP to clarify the point.

Not really. If you're at all familiar with the IP then the use of the term "Blood Hunt" should be enough to explain it.

I watched the whole video just now and from what I gathered:

The game will have multiple cities all on one shard, each named after IRL cities, but fantasized versions of them.

Every city will have a Prince.

The Prince will be a player who was voted into that position by other players.

The Prince will be able to set in motion the series of events that will lead to a player being perma killed.

From the sound of it, this act will be a very big deal so it probably won't happen often.

In order for the Prince to kill you, you need to be kind of a big deal.  Or you need to do something that pisses alot of peope off.  So, if you keep your nose clean and respect the Prince, you won't get killed.  Think of it like maintaining a friendship, or staying on the good side of the MVP of the game.  Just don't piss him off and your character will be fine.

I think perma death will probably be as rare as Jedi's were in SWG, (pre Jedi Trial Grind).

It's actually quite suitable to lore, and could work mechanically, but it has to be *crazy hard* to die in the first place.

Vampires in WoD can experience a 'final death' in many ways, and it's just as easy to die as a werewolf from aggregated wounds made from silver, fire or spectral materials. Otherwise, it really is hard to take one down.

The issue would be in placing those options into the hands of other Players. A permadeath game works fine when it's not as easy as purchasing silver bullets and wasting an AFK player before he has a chance to even see he's permadead. In PvE, it adds a serious sense of "watch what the f**k you are doing". A horror setting where you *are* the horror element can retain scares by occasional sequences of 'futility'. By this, I mean the occasional invincible monster or swat team with silver bullets that you are *meant* to flee from. In these situations, it's the Players fault for thinking he is meant to overcome it, especially if prior knowledge is given that "some things you are not meant to handle alone, or ever". People had a serious hero/God complex in video games, and a good horror setting requires the complete opposite of the spectrum; weakness. Well, at least a strong character that is not impervious, or immortal.

Long story short - works fine in PvE, sucks balls in PvP.

Also, after reading the above post, it makes total sense that a Camarilla advocate could push a 'final death' clause on shithead players. In that case, it's theoretically a great anti-PK and political balancing measure, but won't stop it, as some Players will still act out in the hopes to avoid this punishment indefinitely. Which again, works.

Also there trully a prince could not call for a blood hunt whenever he/she desired, and normally a prince had a concil of vampiric/hkindred elders that would both comment on his actions, as well as advise them on events in the cites. Even city princes were not the heads of the vampiric culture overall except in their own city largely, add in that with this evading the city of a prince you had annoyed enouph would be pretty good method to stave off blood hunts, since other princes do not take kindly to blood hunts of another cities prince pursueing targets without permission. Both of these facts can be good measures to keep abuse of a perma-death system in check, since if you place semi-regid requirements for a prince to actually call a hunt you reinforce what that hunt means, and the same is true for having politics between city princes to make it possibe to evade/hide from blood hunts in rival cities. I really hope they flesh out the blood hunt system in how they can be called, where they can go, as well as how inter-city blood hunt mechanics such as politics.

Originally posted by RefMinor
I thought all Vampires were permanently dead.

I've never understood by what definition this is true. ‘They don't breathe or have a heartbeat’ is pretty weak. Obviously, they're just living without those things.

‘Well, they're not dead, they're undead.’

‘Un-dead... so, they were dead, but now they're alive. So, they're alive.’

‘No, just... living dead.’

‘Is that like “acting natural”?’

‘You know, dead but animated.’

‘What exactly is the difference between “dead but animated” and “alive”?’

‘Well, they don't have a soul.’

‘Meaning what, no mind? They're incapable of thought, just laying in a coma for eternity?’

‘Well, no...’

I think vampire mythology is long past due to dump its medieval definitions of life and death, but that's possibly just me.

Originally posted by Kazuhiro

Not sure that ever happened in eve, I know for the last 4 years at least there has been no such thing as perma-death in eve. Even if you lose a pod twice, and forget to get a new clone, all you lose is some skillpoints, not sure the exact ammount, I think it's your highest sp skill is wiped, but you don't by any means have to start over.

It's definitely possible. The amount of skillpoints you retain when you are podded is determined by your clone grade. If you have an alpha grade clone, you'll only retain 900,000 skillpoints no matter how many you have. For a 40 million skillpoint character, going back to 900 thousand is definitely starting over.

I'd definitely believe that this has never happened, because the likelihood of someone being out of hisec with nothing but an alpha grade clone waiting is infinitesimal, but I'm just saying it is possibe to get into that position with the approprate dose of derp.

Perma death is stupid.

For those that want it, just play your games "ironman" style. when your character dies, delete it.

Originally posted by jinxxed0

Perma death is stupid.

For those that want it, just play your games "ironman" style. when your character dies, delete it.

... glad you thought this through.

It's not that anyone wants to lose their character, or to have other lose their characters, but that some would appreciate having the threat there, because of how cheap and empty a feeling it is for a game to pretend it threatens your character when it obviously doesn't.

It also defeats the point on another level to do this in a game designed to kill PCs frequently. You're thinking about it in a vacuum, divorced from game design. ‘Oh, you wanna have death? Hur dur delete.’ It's such a tired and shortsighted retort.

Game design isn't a bunch of independent modules of closed systems you tack together which never interact. It comes together into a big picture, and the threat of death and all the game design that would take that into account is what the desire to make death somehow possible in a game is about.

The goal is to not lose your character, and preferably for the game to make it difficult to lose your character, whilst having the game enriched by the knowledge that you are not indestructible.

Which is a message that could not be more important to the game of Vampire, and the World of Darkness in general.

Originally posted by stormseekaz

I watched the whole video just now and from what I gathered:

The game will have multiple cities all on one shard, each named after IRL cities, but fantasized versions of them.

Every city will have a Prince.

The Prince will be a player who was voted into that position by other players.

The Prince will be able to set in motion the series of events that will lead to a player being perma killed.

From the sound of it, this act will be a very big deal so it probably won't happen often.

In order for the Prince to kill you, you need to be kind of a big deal.  Or you need to do something that pisses alot of peope off.  So, if you keep your nose clean and respect the Prince, you won't get killed.  Think of it like maintaining a friendship, or staying on the good side of the MVP of the game.  Just don't piss him off and your character will be fine.

I think perma death will probably be as rare as Jedi's were in SWG, (pre Jedi Trial Grind).

 

Yes this is it exactly. You need to be guilty of a major clusterfuck for the Prince to call a blood hunt on you. Follow the rules and observe the Masquerade (the term used for keeping vampires a secret) and you're fine. Run around picking up cars and throwing them around in front of mortals and you're gonna find yourself hunted down and staked out waiting for sunrise.

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

Originally posted by stormseekaz

I watched the whole video just now and from what I gathered:

The game will have multiple cities all on one shard, each named after IRL cities, but fantasized versions of them.

Every city will have a Prince.

The Prince will be a player who was voted into that position by other players.

The Prince will be able to set in motion the series of events that will lead to a player being perma killed.

From the sound of it, this act will be a very big deal so it probably won't happen often.

In order for the Prince to kill you, you need to be kind of a big deal.  Or you need to do something that pisses alot of peope off.  So, if you keep your nose clean and respect the Prince, you won't get killed.  Think of it like maintaining a friendship, or staying on the good side of the MVP of the game.  Just don't piss him off and your character will be fine.

I think perma death will probably be as rare as Jedi's were in SWG, (pre Jedi Trial Grind).

 

Yes this is it exactly. You need to be guilty of a major clusterfuck for the Prince to call a blood hunt on you. Follow the rules and observe the Masquerade (the term used for keeping vampires a secret) and you're fine. Run around picking up cars and throwing them around in front of mortals and you're gonna find yourself hunted down and staked out waiting for sunrise.

So stoked about this game..sandbox with permadeath...hot

Originally posted by jinxxed0

Perma death is stupid.

For those that want it, just play your games "ironman" style. when your character dies, delete it.

The fact of weither perma-death is stupid or dumb is rather too much of a personal opinion to be able to state that it is either dumb or great across the board. In a game like the WOD setting where the permenent death f a character or figure in the game actually did play into the setting quite abit, yet also was a way of creating a sense of tension when a player would act against thimgs in the setting thaat were quite powerful or far reaching. Also add in that in the setting you dealt with death being more of downed type of state, and also give that feeling that even immortal beings like vampires had fear about death even placing alot of stigma upon those that would actually cause it to another vampire. I would only say that perma-death systems that have been placed into other games in mmos are relatively weak in how they function, but the idea of using the permenent death as well as removal of a character as a driving factor to create tension for players is not a bad idea at all.

To me any method of causing a kindred/vampire to enter into the final death/perma-die should have alot of stigma placed upon it by the whole of vampire culture, since really for a race of immrtal beings that have largely cheated or evaded death that idea of oblivion or trully dieing would be a tramatic thought. Things like the blood hunts that a prince could call up, the act of oDiablerie (or the act of blood draining a kindred, and then devouring thier soul) is another act that can bring final death, and both of these have uses as well as allure to using them in the setting. WIth one the blood hunt used to both punish those that over step the rules of a prince while also once more re-affirming the prince's power too; Yet with Diablerie has the allure of actually being able to both learn new powers as well as lower one's onw generation standing also.  In the culture of vampires Diablerie was seen like cannabilism is for humanity, and so those that partake in it are dealt with in very guarded ways, as well as being also sometimes hunted for their actions too in the setting.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

This seems to have become twisted and people are saying the Prince will be affected by Permadeath. That's not what was said. Watch the linked youtube file and it's very clear. The Prince can call a Blood Hunt on someone, probably for a major infraction of the Masquerade (that's my best guess), and that player can then be hunted down and killed. Nobody said that only Princes can be killed.

 

They clearly said that a Blood Hunt can result in permadeath, and only a Prince can call a Blood Hunt.

 

It's amazing how quickly a very simple statement can be twisted into something else.

 

My quote was from here.

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/24/world-of-darkness-presented-at-eve-fanfest-2012/

 

The two are not mutually exclusive, it is possible a prince may only call a blood hunt on another prince for example.

I dont think so.  Really.  Another Prince would be in an entirely different city.  A bloodhunt called by a Prince is very likely to target underlings. 

I wouldnt be surprised in Prince's were NOT in a position for perma death to occur.  Otherwise there's going to be constant assasinations and chaos. 

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

Originally posted by stormseekaz

I watched the whole video just now and from what I gathered:

The game will have multiple cities all on one shard, each named after IRL cities, but fantasized versions of them.

Every city will have a Prince.

The Prince will be a player who was voted into that position by other players.

The Prince will be able to set in motion the series of events that will lead to a player being perma killed.

From the sound of it, this act will be a very big deal so it probably won't happen often.

In order for the Prince to kill you, you need to be kind of a big deal.  Or you need to do something that pisses alot of peope off.  So, if you keep your nose clean and respect the Prince, you won't get killed.  Think of it like maintaining a friendship, or staying on the good side of the MVP of the game.  Just don't piss him off and your character will be fine.

I think perma death will probably be as rare as Jedi's were in SWG, (pre Jedi Trial Grind).

 

Yes this is it exactly. You need to be guilty of a major clusterfuck for the Prince to call a blood hunt on you. Follow the rules and observe the Masquerade (the term used for keeping vampires a secret) and you're fine. Run around picking up cars and throwing them around in front of mortals and you're gonna find yourself hunted down and staked out waiting for sunrise.

For my two cents this is pretty much what I got out of it too. 

Originally posted by stormseekaz

I watched the whole video just now and from what I gathered:

The game will have multiple cities all on one shard, each named after IRL cities, but fantasized versions of them.

Every city will have a Prince.

The Prince will be a player who was voted into that position by other players.

The Prince will be able to set in motion the series of events that will lead to a player being perma killed.

From the sound of it, this act will be a very big deal so it probably won't happen often.

In order for the Prince to kill you, you need to be kind of a big deal.  Or you need to do something that pisses alot of peope off.  So, if you keep your nose clean and respect the Prince, you won't get killed.  Think of it like maintaining a friendship, or staying on the good side of the MVP of the game.  Just don't piss him off and your character will be fine.

I think perma death will probably be as rare as Jedi's were in SWG, (pre Jedi Trial Grind).

 

Sorry, too much power to be giving one player in a game.

Originally posted by eyeswideopen

Sorry, too much power to be giving one player in a game.

Presumably, the Prince isn't indestructible, either. I can't imagine a Prince that calls erroneous Blood Hunts being in power long. The idea should be for both parties to fear each other, really.

Plus, when the kinslay-happy despot is removed from power, you can imagine the next Prince calling a Blood Hunt of their own, if you want retribution...

Also, if you are or have ever been an EVE player, think back to EVE. A CEO has tremendous power: namely access to everything in the corporation wallets and hangars. A CEO could wreak havoc on the whole of the corporation, like in no other game, really, but it doesn't happen. Because the effort it takes to get into a CEO position in a powerful corporation isn't worth squandering like that.

Likewise, I can't imagine a player that has worked themselves into being the Prince of a city will ever consider it worthwhile to take out their personal grudges with Blood Hunts. That's a tremendous amount of effort to go through just to kill a couple of people and then probably have a coup on your hands.

Originally posted by Saerain

Originally posted by eyeswideopen

Sorry, too much power to be giving one player in a game.

Presumably, the Prince isn't indestructible, either. I can't imagine a Prince that calls erroneous Blood Hunts being in power long. The idea should be for both parties to fear each other, really.

Plus, when the kinslay-happy despot is removed from power, you can imagine the next Prince calling a Blood Hunt of their own, if you want retribution...

Originally posted by RefMinor
If as people are saying, the price calls the blood hunt for a particular transgression of the lore then it can't be done on a whim. The prince may show mercy to allies and call the bloodhunt on rivals, but it will need the player to transgress the lore rules first. As it is a sandbox it also gives the rivals a reason to topple the prince from power.

Right, and I'm actually betting that the action of calling a blood hunt will not be as simple as clicking a button on just anyone's name and waiting for the news. Under my backseat designer hat, I suspect that it will differ from EVE's bounty system, in which you can place a bounty on anyone for any reason, in that a blood hunt will be an option offered to a Prince only when the game recognizes that they've performed kin-slaying, diablerie, or wide-scale breaches of the Masquerade—probably though something analagous to a security rating. Such that it should be less like the bounty system and more like a player's right to fire on another in hisec. That, but with the Prince as an arbiter as to whether the game's accusation is justified.

TL;DR: the Prince can't call a blood hunt off-the-cuff, but can either authorize it when the game suggests it, or pardon the offender.

Just my suspicion, though.

Originally posted by Deathenger

There was a question about death which was answered by confirming there will be permadeath unless I misunderstood. I'm really interested in how this will work in the end and how much of an impact it will really have on the game. It's about 30 min into the video, I tried to link best I could to the exact moment of the question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Cf_xGH0v93U#t=1846s

 

Just watched again and I believe the answer to permadeath was "You can be permanently killed and your character removed to the game" Inderesting indeed and I'm looking forward to more info on this in the future.

 

i think ccp have something exciting up their sleeve. if you follow white wolf's games, you can see with their card game version of VtM, that you don't play a vampire as such. you play an uber vampire who's pretty much controlling vampires as though they're puppets. i think that's how ccp will play it which is why, in the end, permadeath won't matter as much because as they said, you AS A PLAYER don't die. i think though you will be playing a vampire, you'll probably be encouraged to have alts and these alts will be your powerbase. lose one and it's pretty meh if you've built it up.

there's a moment in the big presentation where they're talking about permadeath and you can almost see them trying to say that, but they don't want to let the cat out of the proverbial bag too early.

i reckon your vampires won't be as meaningful but will work similar to ships in eve. you simply pilot the vampires. which also explains why they're avoiding generations and levelling of characters as such.

if that's the way they go - i think this will be very very fun.

While this sounds too good to be true, I consider all games to be smoke and mirrors until I can actually see the combat.

If it's another hotkey fest, I think I'll have to pass, regardless of how good the other features are.