Originally posted by gu357u53r

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by gu357u53r

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

Unfortunately the best you get with that analogy is a 10million litre size glass that's not yet full being filled more than it leaks.

If your game is great, people will play.  If not they won't.  It happens all the time, things fail.  I would rather have a glass that didn't leak though.  The best you get with your analogy is a game that doesn't want players.  If it can't hold water, why should I play it?

 

The only way the glass doesn't leak is if the game is compulsory to play by law and strictly enforced, some will always be leaving because they tried and didn't like it, boredom after playing for so long etc.

When I say game I ultimately mean online multiplayer game.  Would you go buy Unreal Tournament 3 right now just to be able to play online?  You might, since you can still also play it you might not have players in the server, but you can try to find some with less of a hassle beyond just the price of the game.  There is no leaking here, when you add a subscription you have started the never ending leak.  Once you stop subscribing, you can no longer inhabit the world which is what makes online multiplayer games work.  So again I will say,  Without players, where is the game?

The op has only compared 2 servers. That does not make it fact. Also at a time of free trials for one of the most controversial mmos, just means those figures will be inflated. Measuring by new players is pointless if they all quit after a week. 

The property way to measure would be to see how many new players the game is retaining, and the only way to do that is to look at the mid level zones. That in itself is flawed. 

The op makes a good point that new players are the blood of a mmo, but his attempt to measure them is flawed.

Originally posted by RefMinor

 If the MMO is doing well and growing then if 10ml leaks out then it is replaced by another 10ml and more. Simple logic, no online game in the history of the world has ever or will ever have perfect retention.

It's not about perfect retention, it is about being an online multiplayer game.  Your number spewing is just that, numbers.  Of course they don't have perfect retention, but if they never deny you access to it then they don't have to worry about leaks from the get go.  It is probably why you are seeing all of the free to play games pop up left and right because they don't have to worry about trying to manipulate people into playing their game.  It is free, you never have to spend a single dime to be pretty or powerful.  In other words they don't have to worry about retention.

Originally posted by gu357u53r

Originally posted by RefMinor

 If the MMO is doing well and growing then if 10ml leaks out then it is replaced by another 10ml and more. Simple logic, no online game in the history of the world has ever or will ever have perfect retention.

It's not about perfect retention, it is about being an online multiplayer game.  Your number spewing is just that, numbers.  Of course they don't have perfect retention, but if they never deny you access to it then they don't have to worry about leaks from the get go.  It is probably why you are seeing all of the free to play games pop up left and right because they don't have to worry about trying to manipulate people into playing their game.  It is free, you never have to spend a single dime to be pretty or powerful.  In other words they don't have to worry about retention.

Originally posted by blackweb

If new characters is the measure of good design, SWTOR is clearly winning.

What would possibly make you think new characters was a measure of good design?

Again, I'm not negative on ToR like some of the posters here but you've drawn some completely bizarre conclusions.

Installs (new players) are almost entirely unrelated to game design.

Buy 2 Play games work like this: Build hype, generate box sales.  Subscription sales (players willing to continue paying and playing your game) are a vastly better measure of a game's design quality.  But the new installs themselves are almost completely detached from game design quality.

What are you doing OP?  You've posted the same message over here and on the SWTOR forums.. you got more replies over here than there.  I've got nothing against SWTOR yet it's clearly shown that it's loosing players.  I've been watching the server statuses since the start.  The truth needs no denfense.  AND also, I rolled on Ven Zallow and even a month ago when playing I noticed a decline in players from when I started in EGA. 

I'm not against comparing two games... I had to when choosing where to send money.  I could choose to expand on WoW or play SWTOR and I choose SWTOR.  Comparing is fine and all, yet having only two data points as two servers for your research, didn't we learn that in science class? That we need multiple data points to have a more accurate trend?

Torstatus has many more data points than your research. 

Someone on youtube said "Gamers arean't stupid, they know what they want".  I think it's a fair statement. 

And all the so called "trolls and QQ'ers" were part of the player base.  They have the same value as every other human being on this planet and discrediting them or "fanbois" respectively is erronous. 

"You're leaving the game?  Okai bai, can I has ur stuf?"  lol... That's not the best thing to say to your own community of players, imo.

Originally posted by MosesZD

Besides ineptly interpreted comments by incomptent game "journalists" (and I wince everytime I connect those terms) where is the evidence?    Or, in short, why are the trends so bad for SWTOR?   http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/trends

 

Do your trends.  Know they haven't added servers, besides the 3 Oceanic servers, since the 20th of December.  

 

And now...   More than 80% of them spend at least 50% of their time in 'light' status, which is around 450 or fewer players.  (I know with 477 you'll get a "standard" population.)   The threads for server mergers are constantly spawning and constantly being shut down.   The 'official' server merger thread has gone over 1,000s of posts repeatedly...

 

And now we have the desperation huge marketing campaign that didn't work (sales keep dropping, game was at 58 last week, down from 53 the week before...   The free trials haven't helped.    It's a laugher.

 

And yet you're telling us SWTOR is kicking butt and taking names?    With Tera, GW2 and TSW coming out...  

 

SWTOR = Warhammer by summer's end...

THIS^

Originally posted by MosesZD

No servers have been added, save three Oceania servers, since 12/20/2011.   Server-hours are now over 50% LIGHT during weekend play.  That's peak play and a doubling of this negative measurement (25% to 50%).     Server hours are now just 3% heavy on weekends (during peak playtime), down from 30% heavy on January 8th.   That's 1/10th the 'heavy status' hours of January 8th.

 

So a doubling of time spent in light (under 450 players) and one-tenth the time spent in heavy...   And you're saying SWTOR growing?   Face the facts.   Just face 'em.   Make your peace with the upcoming server mergers and stop pretending this game is an unqualified success.   It's not.

 

The only thing SWTOR is better at is contracting.    It's crashing and burning at a  much faster rate than WoW...

THIS^

Originally posted by huntard

LOL! .. ok so has SWTOR taken some subscribers from WoW sure, will it EVER have the subscription base WoW currently has NO! .. about all it can do it continue on its path and hope its still around in a few years.

WoW is a phenomenon in the MMORPG world, the chances of another WoW EVER coming along are slim, and the chances of SWTOR becoming WoW just wont happen, at the end of the day .. if you like SWTOR play it, if you like WoW play that or both but really? Who cares!

Like it or not, WoW is still the 800lbs gorilla in the MMORPG industry a title that will not be taken any time soon.

as for me, i enjoy both games.

THIS^

Should end this pointless thread but for a side note

LOL OP reminds me of this one guy I met on AOC. We were arguing about who was better on global chat and he was coming up with storys with no proof but I on the other hand had my storys with proof (Pictures posted on forums). Then he goes off saying the dumbest thing......

"You may have the PROOF! but I know the FACTS!"        O.o? DERP!

What a load of drivel.

You can't just take a bad sample and derive a conclusion from that.

Are the TWO (out of how many) serves serving the time timezone in their population? The figures reported are so low, a single guild running a single alt levelling event could totally throw it.

The age of the two games means that in one game that has a proven longevity, people will have levelled all the alts they want and have little reason to do another since the story is the same for all.

The other game is still new, still desperately needs new blood to get even within 10% of the others player base (a mere 1 million) and has different story line for each class and each side. 

I have been playing SWTOR recently and the population on each planet can vary widely, it is far to small a sample to make any conclusions.

Look at the login screen for SWTOR sometime, you can see an occasional FULL server in the same timezone as light servers. How do you explain that?  Because the difference between the time can purely be accident been done by one server having a lot of fans of a sport that is playing at that time.

WoW is an old game but people are still playing it because they know it well and no other games have come along to give a similar deep social experience. It has a new massive expansion coming soon that in the past has been the key to getting a LOT of people to come back. Often more people come back to taste an expansion then other games have in their entire lifespan.

SWTOR is the new kid on the block but its reception has been far from smooth. It desperately needs patches and content addition and so far, this is slow in coming with Bioware unable to even tackle spam with the exact same message for month after month. It is not a good sign, sure, they are new but surely SOMEONE in all those years of development must have thought of a spam filter? Oops, guess not.

Some people claim that Bioware can make a comeback... that is NOT good talk, no MMO so far has ever made a comeback. You might think you are defending the game by saying that 1.2 and 1.3 and 999.999 will fix the game and make it attrack millions of subscribers... but historic evidence suggests this never happens.

Personally? I think WoW will continue for a lot longer as the most revined MMO that only suffers from its perceived childish community and the fact that people have played the game for far to long. SWTOR in the meantime will slowly die as Bioware is unable to justify developing new content a story MMO needs so desperately with subscribers saying "I seen the stories I wanted, unless you offer more, I won't pay". It will hang on for as long as EA is willing to risk new development with declining revenue. SOE has shown games can survive a long time like that but if you wanted a WoW killer, this is not.

It is not a bad game, just like any MMO, it ain't for everyone. The mass appeal that WoW somehow managed to generate is not to be found in SWTOR. To me, it is far more a single player RPG with grieving and spamming and monthly bills and lag and "can't see target" that I play because it is the closest thing to Kotor3 out there.

Anyway, drifting off point, in the end, trying to determine new players by people in low level areas on a single server is stupid. Basing a conclusion on that is moronic.

Originally posted by blackweb

Originally posted by killion81

I would imagine that the emphasis of one game on repeatedly rerolling versus the emphasis of the other game on maintaining playing a single or main max level character has no effect on this scientifically supported hypothesis.

Again, new characters are THE key measure of MMORPG viability.  As a guild leader, I can attest to that fact.

 If 10 times as many players quit than new players come in then you're not seeing a viable MMO. New characters are not THE key measure of MMORPG viability. It could be an important part of viability, but one day one one server isn't exactly any kind of conclusive indication for how well an MMO is doing. Numbers like population that used to be available on swtorarena have shown nothing but downwards trends. I'm not convinced TOR is doing a better job of surviving than WoW.

@OP

Forgive me for my bluntness, but this is your one and only post on MMORPG.com?

Doesn't look suspicious much.

Have your five minutes... BIOWARE had their's and it's all but over.

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

The numbers don't matter it's just a analogy, all you are saying within that analogy is that F2P have a much bigger tap filling the glass, I would also say they have a far bigger leak. I am not saying and have not said an MMO doesn't need players, just that you can have more new starters and losing a lot of your current player base and be in a worse position than having less new starters but losing less of your current player base. I am not sure which bit is crossing our wires.

There is no leak in a F2P scenario.  Anyone can access at any time.   If the game doesn't hold players, then they obviously don't care because it is F2P.  They just want gamers, they respect them up until competition comes into play then you find it is easy to bot since it is F2P and that is where the manipulation comes into play.  But that is all up to the player to decide, if they like the F2P game, and never want to spend a dime then play it.  You probably won't win, but most role playing games aren't always about winning or losing for that matter.  So it is sort of a buy to play competitive game in a roundabout way.  You pay enough to become powerful enough to experience the complete game with others who are spending, but one thing is for sure you also get to be around players since it is F2P.  I don't really like F2P so i am not saying it is  great.    It shouldn't be about who is spending the most that is why I am thinking of an idea to level this playing field of people who are willing to spend cash by letting both non subscribers, and subscribers play together in my other thread.  The bit that is crossing our wires is why would they want to lose players to begin with?  Take the WoW private servers for example wouldn't Blizzard be better off getting those gamers that are messing about in those back into the World?  Look past that they might be botters, or heck that they even pirated the game, or even if they aren't the friendliest gamer on earth.  It is ultimately players who make these games, a world has all types of players, but certain games don't want you in them so why stick around?

Originally posted by gu357u53r

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

The numbers don't matter it's just a analogy, all you are saying within that analogy is that F2P have a much bigger tap filling the glass, I would also say they have a far bigger leak. I am not saying and have not said an MMO doesn't need players, just that you can have more new starters and losing a lot of your current player base and be in a worse position than having less new starters but losing less of your current player base. I am not sure which bit is crossing our wires.

There is no leak in a F2P scenario.  Anyone can access at any time.   If the game doesn't hold players, then they obviously don't care because it is F2P.  They just want gamers, they respect them up until competition comes into play then you find it is easy to bot since it is F2P and that is where the manipulation comes into play.  But that is all up to the player to decide, if they like the F2P game, and never want to spend a dime then play it.  You probably won't win, but most role playing games aren't always about winning or losing for that matter.  So it is sort of a buy to play competitive game in a roundabout way.  You pay enough to become powerful enough to experience the complete game with others who are spending, but one thing is for sure you also get to be around players since it is F2P.  I don't really like F2P so i am not saying it is  great.    It shouldn't be about who is spending the most that is why I am thinking of an idea to level this playing field of people who are willing to spend cash by letting both non subscribers, and subscribers play together in my other thread.  The bit that is crossing our wires is why would they want to lose players to begin with?  Take the WoW private servers for example wouldn't Blizzard be better off getting those gamers that are messing about in those back into the World?  Look past that they might be botters, or heck that they even pirated the game, or even if they aren't the friendliest gamer on earth.  It is ultimately players who make these games, a world has all types of players, but certain games don't want you in them so why stick around?

Originally posted by 8nf8n8ty

What are you doing OP?  You've posted the same message over here and on the SWTOR forums.. you got more replies over here than there.  I've got nothing against SWTOR yet it's clearly shown that it's loosing players.  I've been watching the server statuses since the start.  The truth needs no denfense.  AND also, I rolled on Ven Zallow and even a month ago when playing I noticed a decline in players from when I started in EGA. 

I'm not against comparing two games... I had to when choosing where to send money.  I could choose to expand on WoW or play SWTOR and I choose SWTOR.  Comparing is fine and all, yet having only two data points as two servers for your research, didn't we learn that in science class? That we need multiple data points to have a more accurate trend?

Torstatus has many more data points than your research. 

Someone on youtube said "Gamers arean't stupid, they know what they want".  I think it's a fair statement. 

And all the so called "trolls and QQ'ers" were part of the player base.  They have the same value as every other human being on this planet and discrediting them or "fanbois" respectively is erronous. 

"You're leaving the game?  Okai bai, can I has ur stuf?"  lol... That's not the best thing to say to your own community of players, imo.

He even spammed my blog with this drivel.   LOL!

Originally posted by jacklo

@OP

Forgive me for my bluntness, but this is your one and only post on MMORPG.com?

Doesn't look suspicious much.

Have your five minutes... BIOWARE had their's and it's all but over.

Yeah it's not even worth discussing this anymore with the bioware defense force. Cognitive dissonance is a ugly thing to see unfold in real time.

The one gripe I have with these posters are they actually hastened the demise of this game faster than the poor implementation of it. By attacking their own community members who don't share their veil of delusion, they only drove people who actually liked the game away in larger numbers. Those of us in beta who didnt claim the game was perfect were name called to no end.

For example, if I were one of those poor slobs who are now on a dead server, being told by the Biodrones, to quit QQing and reroll, I would want to piss down their eyesockets if they said that to my face. Instead of backing their community, they attack those who still want to play the game, just to avoid admitting BW can do no wrong.

Talk about a crap community. If I were a lucky player on a full server, I would still stand with those on dead servers, and demand EA stop trying to protect its image and merge the servers for these people. But such is the mindset of a biodrone.

Originally posted by Bunks

Originally posted by jacklo

@OP

Forgive me for my bluntness, but this is your one and only post on MMORPG.com?

Doesn't look suspicious much.

Have your five minutes... BIOWARE had their's and it's all but over.

Yeah it's not even worth discussing this anymore with the bioware defense force. Cognitive dissonance is a ugly thing to see unfold in real time.

 

The one gripe I have with these posters are they actually hastened the demise of this game faster than the poor implementation of it. By attacking their own community members who don't share their veil of delusion, they only drove people who actually liked the game away in larger numbers.

 

For example, if I were one of those poor slobs who are now on a dead server, being told by the Biodrones, to quit QQing and reroll, I would want to piss down their eyesockets if they said that to my face. Instead of backing their community, they attack those who still want to play the game, just to avoid admitting BW can do no wrong.

Talk about a crap community. If I were a lucky player on a full server, I would still stand with those on dead servers, and demand EA stop trying to protect its image and merge the servers for these people. But such is the mindset of a biodrone.

This is truth.

But the BDF will dismiss you as a hater

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

If a player stops playing then that is a leak, in a F2P it reducing the chance of them buying something in the shop to zero so the publisher obviously want to keep as many players as possible to increase the chance of gaining revenue, I think that is undeniable. All games have a leak of retiring customers, I have never said games want to lose any customer but it a fact of life that it will happen.

The game is still running and accessible, where is the leak?  You either have a cup with no holes, F2P game, or a smashed cup because the F2P game has closed its doors.  That is not a leak.

Originally posted by gu357u53r

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

If a player stops playing then that is a leak, in a F2P it reducing the chance of them buying something in the shop to zero so the publisher obviously want to keep as many players as possible to increase the chance of gaining revenue, I think that is undeniable. All games have a leak of retiring customers, I have never said games want to lose any customer but it a fact of life that it will happen.

The game is still running and accessible, where is the leak?  You either have a cup with no holes, F2P game, or a smashed cup because the F2P game has closed its doors.  That is not a leak.

I wouldnt realy recommend setting up WoW up as you bar.

Just because in one case SWToR might look not as bad as WoW in another.

doesnt neccessarily make it fine, good or even great.

You dont know if you picked a representative example.

You cant just compare medium of one game to another as those are subjectively decided by the developer.

You dont know how the distribution of lowlevel vs highlevel player turns out to be the same in either games due to gamedesign.

You cant even say better than WoWs state means good.

It just makes SWTOR look relatively better than a tanking game in a single randomly choosen case out of hundreds potential.

Thats not a very strong point to make even if it really was better off than WoW.

Originally posted by sfc1971

What a load of drivel.

You can't just take a bad sample and derive a conclusion from that.

Are the TWO (out of how many) serves serving the time timezone in their population? The figures reported are so low, a single guild running a single alt levelling event could totally throw it.

The age of the two games means that in one game that has a proven longevity, people will have levelled all the alts they want and have little reason to do another since the story is the same for all.

The other game is still new, still desperately needs new blood to get even within 10% of the others player base (a mere 1 million) and has different story line for each class and each side. 

I have been playing SWTOR recently and the population on each planet can vary widely, it is far to small a sample to make any conclusions.

Look at the login screen for SWTOR sometime, you can see an occasional FULL server in the same timezone as light servers. How do you explain that?  Because the difference between the time can purely be accident been done by one server having a lot of fans of a sport that is playing at that time.

WoW is an old game but people are still playing it because they know it well and no other games have come along to give a similar deep social experience. It has a new massive expansion coming soon that in the past has been the key to getting a LOT of people to come back. Often more people come back to taste an expansion then other games have in their entire lifespan.

SWTOR is the new kid on the block but its reception has been far from smooth. It desperately needs patches and content addition and so far, this is slow in coming with Bioware unable to even tackle spam with the exact same message for month after month. It is not a good sign, sure, they are new but surely SOMEONE in all those years of development must have thought of a spam filter? Oops, guess not.

Some people claim that Bioware can make a comeback... that is NOT good talk, no MMO so far has ever made a comeback. You might think you are defending the game by saying that 1.2 and 1.3 and 999.999 will fix the game and make it attrack millions of subscribers... but historic evidence suggests this never happens.

Personally? I think WoW will continue for a lot longer as the most revined MMO that only suffers from its perceived childish community and the fact that people have played the game for far to long. SWTOR in the meantime will slowly die as Bioware is unable to justify developing new content a story MMO needs so desperately with subscribers saying "I seen the stories I wanted, unless you offer more, I won't pay". It will hang on for as long as EA is willing to risk new development with declining revenue. SOE has shown games can survive a long time like that but if you wanted a WoW killer, this is not.

It is not a bad game, just like any MMO, it ain't for everyone. The mass appeal that WoW somehow managed to generate is not to be found in SWTOR. To me, it is far more a single player RPG with grieving and spamming and monthly bills and lag and "can't see target" that I play because it is the closest thing to Kotor3 out there.

Anyway, drifting off point, in the end, trying to determine new players by people in low level areas on a single server is stupid. Basing a conclusion on that is moronic.

This was an interesting informative post to someone (me) considering the game.

The OP and guestuser are clearly trolls - the rest of you have been playing games long enough to recogonize them.  Don't feed them..  "Do heals crit?"

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by gu357u53r

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

If a player stops playing then that is a leak, in a F2P it reducing the chance of them buying something in the shop to zero so the publisher obviously want to keep as many players as possible to increase the chance of gaining revenue, I think that is undeniable. All games have a leak of retiring customers, I have never said games want to lose any customer but it a fact of life that it will happen.

The game is still running and accessible, where is the leak?  You either have a cup with no holes, F2P game, or a smashed cup because the F2P game has closed its doors.  That is not a leak.

 

Then we disagree about an analogy of mine, I guess I can live with myself.

When you make it about online multiplayer only with the option of not being accessible until you pay to play the leak will start after you lose one subscriber.  F2P games you always have access until the game closes its doors, there is no leak in terms of losing or gaining players.  People will try it simply because it looks like something that interests them.  They have nothing to lose since it is F2P, no leaks. Buy to play pay to access has leaks, don't pay then get out.  Stipulations to being accesible is the reason for the leak.