Originally posted by Gameloading

Using the term pay2win for mmos is utterly ridiculous.

mmorpgs are not a competition. You´re not winning anything by advancing in the game. Also, I don´t know of any game where you can actually advance in levels or buy equipment. that would defeat the point of an mmorpg.

Atlantica online, they don't sell items directly but they sell enchant stone which makes your weapon stronger, and the difference between enchanted and unehcnated item is up to 4 times as strong. 

You can also use gold to buy random box which drop exp book.  So as long as you keep buying cash shop item and trade them for in game gold, you can level up by clicking exp book.

That's one game, I'm sure you can find many f2p games with cash shop selling enchant stone.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Using the term pay2win for mmos is utterly ridiculous.

mmorpgs are not a competition. You´re not winning anything by advancing in the game. Also, I don´t know of any game where you can actually advance in levels or buy equipment. that would defeat the point of an mmorpg.

Can I assume this is sarcasm?  Buying gear and advancement is the core concept of pay to win.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Gameloading

Using the term pay2win for mmos is utterly ridiculous.

mmorpgs are not a competition. You´re not winning anything by advancing in the game. Also, I don´t know of any game where you can actually advance in levels or buy equipment. that would defeat the point of an mmorpg.

Atlantica online, they don't sell items directly but they sell enchant stone which makes your weapon stronger, and the difference between enchanted and unehcnated item is up to 4 times as strong. 

You can also use gold to buy random box which drop exp book.  So as long as you keep buying cash shop item and trade them for in game gold, you can level up by clicking exp book.

That's one game, I'm sure you can find many f2p games with cash shop selling enchant stone.

Most games that come with enhance stones/whatever usually have them drop in game too just cash shop makes them less likely to break/damage the item.

Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

 

 

 people who have the money and want to win at any costs. I do notice a lot of browser games are very pay 2 win

Originally posted by Sakeraso

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Gameloading

Using the term pay2win for mmos is utterly ridiculous.

mmorpgs are not a competition. You´re not winning anything by advancing in the game. Also, I don´t know of any game where you can actually advance in levels or buy equipment. that would defeat the point of an mmorpg.

Atlantica online, they don't sell items directly but they sell enchant stone which makes your weapon stronger, and the difference between enchanted and unehcnated item is up to 4 times as strong. 

You can also use gold to buy random box which drop exp book.  So as long as you keep buying cash shop item and trade them for in game gold, you can level up by clicking exp book.

That's one game, I'm sure you can find many f2p games with cash shop selling enchant stone.

Most games that come with enhance stones/whatever usually have them drop in game too just cash shop makes them less likely to break/damage the item.

That's the same thing right? Going back to the example in Atlantica online.  If I want to enchant a sword to +10, on average I need to break 1024 sword for a chance to get 1 sword to +10.  But if I just use the cash shop stone I pretty much automatically get a +10 sword.  That to me is selling weapon directly.

Casuals who play maybe 20 hours a week because they work or whatever it is they do. So to catch up they wil pay for items, boosters and whatever they can to keep up with everyone else.

Sometimes good games end up with pay 2 win in them, through the fault of the localizer.

Originally posted by stormseekaz

Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

 

 

 I played Eden Eternal for a good 6 months, and I'd consider it a Pay2Win game.  It is one of the Online RPG's where you "enhance" or "buff" your equipment from 0 up to 10.  With each step having a failure chance and the failure chance increasing as it goes up.  Failure causes the weapon to break or reset, so you have to use cash shop items to prevent the failure from destroying the progress.  Several other free2play korean games have this kind of item upgrade model (Scions of Fate, and Nostale, from what I've played)  I think Cabal Online might have it too.

So, I played the game for 6 months and never spent a single penny.  However, I did play the game all the time, and craft/trade intelligently, as well as farm for rare items and gold.

I had several heated debates in guild chats where I was using the anti-cash shop argument, and pro-cash shop argument people were voicing their reasons.  In the end, I just pissed alot of Pay2Win addicts off by telling them how wasteful they were being.

So here are four different personality/role types I experienced when playing Eden Eternal, each of these types I had alot of interaction with on ventrilo as well as guild chat, and all of these player types made purchases.

The stay at home wife - she was the guild leader of the guild I spent most of my gaming term in.  Her husband was the original founder of the guild but he had a full time job and had his wife take over the guild for him.  He was a very smart guy with a good job and made good money.  Every week when new items would come out in the cash shop, the guildmates would then joke about how our guild leader was going to beg her husband for some cash shop items once he gets home from work.  The wife was not allowed to make purchases without the permission of her husband, since he was the one with the job.  They were a couple in their late twenties.  The wife was willing to pay money for the cash shop items, and the husband was not really thrilled about it, but he would appease his wife.

The lonely teenage girl - There was a girl who was in my guild for a while.  She wasn't the most intelligent person in the world, and I'm saying that nicely.  She did not make cash shop purchases often, she rarely did it.  But when she would make them, it was on almost purely cosmetic stuff, like pets etc.  She would use her own hard worked money.  The majority of the time she would buy an item and then give it to someone else in the game as a gift to earn their friendship or affection.  She only had a part time job and so she did not have a very high income.  Whenever she would tell me about a purchase she made or I'd hear about it, I'd get upset with her, because I knew she was wasting her money and how little IRL money she had.  She would shrug off my warnings and say stuff like "oh well I'll just work a few more hours this week".  I was wanting a in-game pet that gives a significant tanking buff, since I did alot of tanking.  I would mention it here and there but I couldn't afford it because I didn't have enough in game gold to buy one off a player.  So the teenage girl gave it to me as a gift.  I took it, but later regretted it, because I didn't like that she wasted her money on other people.  So I mailed her back an equivalent amount of gold once I had earned it.

The rich loser - there were a handful of males in the game who would get ALL of their items to the maximum power level, +10 as soon as they would get the item, and as soon as it would be released from the cash shop.  Basically these guys had max'ed out stuff as soon as possible and spent whatever amount of IRL cash was required.  These guys were very elitist and arrogant.  They also had striking personality flaws.  Basically you only had to be in ventrillo with them for a good hour or two to realize how big of a massive tool they were IRL.  So basically these guys had bad social skills, bad enough to hinder their success in real life, so they would make up for this, or attempt to, by being the biggest "winners" in-game.  These guys who dumped literally thousands on the game would often talk about their IRL financial status, in a bragging manner.  So basically they were rich guys in corvettes compensating for something, but it was an in-game corvette.

The average joe addict The last type I can think of is one of the officers of my guild.  He was a very intelligent guy, he had a decent job, it was nothing super special but he had spare income to play with, but he wasn't wealthy/rich IRL.  He would spend maybe about 100-400 dollars on the game per month.  I remember him once having deposited 200 bucks into his account and complaining about how much money he just dumped, regretting it.  He was a nice guy, easy to get along with, he seemed very normal.  But he was an addict to the game.  He liked to be decently powerful, like bargain powerful.  He'd get his stuff powerful enough to get stuff done and to handle business in PVP, but he wouldnt just dump tons of cash like the rich loser would.  So I can only say that this is the average addicted Pay2Win player.  They know they are addicted, they know they are dumping their money away, but they are having fun in the game so they feel its justified.

The rare spender / cheapskate (Me) - This guy has way too much free time on his hands.  He has no girlfriend, and no significant hobby besides gaming.  His IRL / local friends are also gamers, so maintaining the friendships while still gaming a ton is easy.  He thinks pay2win and cash shop games are a rip off, except for the subscription'esque type items that some games offer.  (Some games call it "premium" or "gold" status.  Basically the most bang for your buck in cash shop games)  This player is very content with themselves as a person, both in-game and IRL, so doesn't need to feed their ego by being the best in the pay2win games.  The player has enough time to devote to gaming that they can experience almost all of what the pay2win games have to offer without spending any money.  They can compete with the cash shop spenders because of how many more hours they put into the game as compared to the spenders.  The player is perfectly fine with being mediocre and enjoy the game for the gameplay itself and not the items/power status symbols.  The player is in-game economy savvy and knows a good cash shop deal when it comes along.  This type of player plays most Free2Play games for free for the entire duration, or spends at most 30 dollars per month for subscription/exp boost type purchases.  A good example of this type of player would be to say they were able to unlock almost all the champions in League of Legends and all of the runes they needed for every possible build they wanted, without paying a single penny to Riot Games, because of the sheer volume of matches the person played and exp was gained.

Oops, I listed 5 types instead of 4.  Well the last one is kind of the non-spender, but they still deserve a description I think.

Everything in this post is 100% accurate and true.  I have played many many Free2Play as well as subscription games, and I've played the piss out of them, and these are my experiences with F2P spenders.

 LOL nice post, made me laugh and very true

Originally posted by stormseekaz

Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

 

 

 I played Eden Eternal for a good 6 months, and I'd consider it a Pay2Win game.  It is one of the Online RPG's where you "enhance" or "buff" your equipment from 0 up to 10.  With each step having a failure chance and the failure chance increasing as it goes up.  Failure causes the weapon to break or reset, so you have to use cash shop items to prevent the failure from destroying the progress.  Several other free2play korean games have this kind of item upgrade model (Scions of Fate, and Nostale, from what I've played)  I think Cabal Online might have it too.

So, I played the game for 6 months and never spent a single penny.  However, I did play the game all the time, and craft/trade intelligently, as well as farm for rare items and gold.

I had several heated debates in guild chats where I was using the anti-cash shop argument, and pro-cash shop argument people were voicing their reasons.  In the end, I just pissed alot of Pay2Win addicts off by telling them how wasteful they were being.

So here are four different personality/role types I experienced when playing Eden Eternal, each of these types I had alot of interaction with on ventrilo as well as guild chat, and all of these player types made purchases.

The stay at home wife - she was the guild leader of the guild I spent most of my gaming term in.  Her husband was the original founder of the guild but he had a full time job and had his wife take over the guild for him.  He was a very smart guy with a good job and made good money.  Every week when new items would come out in the cash shop, the guildmates would then joke about how our guild leader was going to beg her husband for some cash shop items once he gets home from work.  The wife was not allowed to make purchases without the permission of her husband, since he was the one with the job.  They were a couple in their late twenties.  The wife was willing to pay money for the cash shop items, and the husband was not really thrilled about it, but he would appease his wife.

The lonely teenage girl - There was a girl who was in my guild for a while.  She wasn't the most intelligent person in the world, and I'm saying that nicely.  She did not make cash shop purchases often, she rarely did it.  But when she would make them, it was on almost purely cosmetic stuff, like pets etc.  She would use her own hard worked money.  The majority of the time she would buy an item and then give it to someone else in the game as a gift to earn their friendship or affection.  She only had a part time job and so she did not have a very high income.  Whenever she would tell me about a purchase she made or I'd hear about it, I'd get upset with her, because I knew she was wasting her money and how little IRL money she had.  She would shrug off my warnings and say stuff like "oh well I'll just work a few more hours this week".  I was wanting a in-game pet that gives a significant tanking buff, since I did alot of tanking.  I would mention it here and there but I couldn't afford it because I didn't have enough in game gold to buy one off a player.  So the teenage girl gave it to me as a gift.  I took it, but later regretted it, because I didn't like that she wasted her money on other people.  So I mailed her back an equivalent amount of gold once I had earned it.

The rich loser - there were a handful of males in the game who would get ALL of their items to the maximum power level, +10 as soon as they would get the item, and as soon as it would be released from the cash shop.  Basically these guys had max'ed out stuff as soon as possible and spent whatever amount of IRL cash was required.  These guys were very elitist and arrogant.  They also had striking personality flaws.  Basically you only had to be in ventrillo with them for a good hour or two to realize how big of a massive tool they were IRL.  So basically these guys had bad social skills, bad enough to hinder their success in real life, so they would make up for this, or attempt to, by being the biggest "winners" in-game.  These guys who dumped literally thousands on the game would often talk about their IRL financial status, in a bragging manner.  So basically they were rich guys in corvettes compensating for something, but it was an in-game corvette.

The average joe addict The last type I can think of is one of the officers of my guild.  He was a very intelligent guy, he had a decent job, it was nothing super special but he had spare income to play with, but he wasn't wealthy/rich IRL.  He would spend maybe about 100-400 dollars on the game per month.  I remember him once having deposited 200 bucks into his account and complaining about how much money he just dumped, regretting it.  He was a nice guy, easy to get along with, he seemed very normal.  But he was an addict to the game.  He liked to be decently powerful, like bargain powerful.  He'd get his stuff powerful enough to get stuff done and to handle business in PVP, but he wouldnt just dump tons of cash like the rich loser would.  So I can only say that this is the average addicted Pay2Win player.  They know they are addicted, they know they are dumping their money away, but they are having fun in the game so they feel its justified.

The rare spender / cheapskate (Me) - This guy has way too much free time on his hands.  He has no girlfriend, and no significant hobby besides gaming.  His IRL / local friends are also gamers, so maintaining the friendships while still gaming a ton is easy.  He thinks pay2win and cash shop games are a rip off, except for the subscription'esque type items that some games offer.  (Some games call it "premium" or "gold" status.  Basically the most bang for your buck in cash shop games)  This player is very content with themselves as a person, both in-game and IRL, so doesn't need to feed their ego by being the best in the pay2win games.  The player has enough time to devote to gaming that they can experience almost all of what the pay2win games have to offer without spending any money.  They can compete with the cash shop spenders because of how many more hours they put into the game as compared to the spenders.  The player is perfectly fine with being mediocre and enjoy the game for the gameplay itself and not the items/power status symbols.  The player is in-game economy savvy and knows a good cash shop deal when it comes along.  This type of player plays most Free2Play games for free for the entire duration, or spends at most 30 dollars per month for subscription/exp boost type purchases.  A good example of this type of player would be to say they were able to unlock almost all the champions in League of Legends and all of the runes they needed for every possible build they wanted, without paying a single penny to Riot Games, because of the sheer volume of matches the person played and exp was gained.

Oops, I listed 5 types instead of 4.  Well the last one is kind of the non-spender, but they still deserve a description I think.

Everything in this post is 100% accurate and true.  I have played many many Free2Play as well as subscription games, and I've played the piss out of them, and these are my experiences with F2P spenders.

This post represent my experience as well.

Ive met these kind of people before. There is another type though, wich is unknown to most and often neglected:

The people who control the economy. The metagame player. These players are not in the game because of the game the developers made, they are in the game because of the game metagame all games provide, the economy being the most prevalent example. They dont derive any satisfaction from spending real life money in games, despite the fact they could "win it". These players often multiaccount, multibox, camp auction houses, study the game to find exploits, and whatever knowledge about the game and whatever rumour or scent of "something going on" they can benefit from before the "matrix gets fixed". Everything except real life money, wich for them, defeats the whole point. If there are hacks, bots, or cheats, this type of player quits, because the game's integrity has been busted and there is no point "playing it", at wich point they journey seek another healthy host. Their sense of satisfaction derives from knowing deep within themselfs they are doing the most efficient thing and that they are pulling the strings and able to affect other players or the world at their will. Many games get destroyed from inside out and the whole mmorpg service enters a downward spiral and the developers have no clue about what happened "everything was going so well...", neither the majority of its player base, except for the few "people who control the economy", they often go from new game to new game finding holes in the matrix and gaining control over it, working as a social virus.

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by Gameloading

Using the term pay2win for mmos is utterly ridiculous.

mmorpgs are not a competition. You´re not winning anything by advancing in the game. Also, I don´t know of any game where you can actually advance in levels or buy equipment. that would defeat the point of an mmorpg.

 

Can I assume this is sarcasm?  Buying gear and advancement is the core concept of pay to win.

Then you don't understand how the business model works.

An MMORPG developer wants to keep its player base playing as long as possible. The reason to play an mmorpg is to advance in levels and gear. If a developer offers gear in the item shop store, it would defeat the whole point of playing mmorpgs. Its for this reason that you can buy XP boosters, but you can't buy level ups for your character. It's why you can buy items that help you upgrade your weapons and armor, but you can't buy the actual armor yourself.

Clearly you saying that buying gear and advancement is the core concept of "pay to win" shows that you have not as much as even looked at an item shop.

Oh and Stomseekaz? Buying XP boosters is not paying for XP. You still have to actually PLAY the game, defeating your whole argument.

Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

 

 

3. People that play yet never pay for a thing.

Considering that the term Pay 2 Win is being twisted to fit anyones argument, it might as well be any game that gives you an option to spend money would be P2W.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by Gameloading

Using the term pay2win for mmos is utterly ridiculous.

mmorpgs are not a competition. You´re not winning anything by advancing in the game. Also, I don´t know of any game where you can actually advance in levels or buy equipment. that would defeat the point of an mmorpg.

 

Can I assume this is sarcasm?  Buying gear and advancement is the core concept of pay to win.

Then you don't understand how the business model works.

An MMORPG developer wants to keep its player base playing as long as possible. The reason to play an mmorpg is to advance in levels and gear. If a developer offers gear in the item shop store, it would defeat the whole point of playing mmorpgs. Its for this reason that you can buy XP boosters, but you can't buy level ups for your character. It's why you can buy items that help you upgrade your weapons and armor, but you can't buy the actual armor yourself.

Clearly you saying that buying gear and advancement is the core concept of "pay to win" shows that you have not as much as even looked at an item shop.

Oh and Stomseekaz? Buying XP boosters is not paying for XP. You still have to actually PLAY the game, defeating your whole argument.

I dont' know, but I think many f2p you can buy gears easily.  Basically you trade real life cash for ingame cash, for example buy cash shop item and sell those on market.  And you can easily buy gear on the market.

There are many hybrid games on the market.  Those games are not pay 2 win. And making them pay 2 win is probably a bad idea, because those that pay monthly subscription will be pissed too much and quit.  But as far as I can tell most pay 2 wins games, they are basically about buying gear and advancement.  Since a +0 weapon probably cost like 100 gold, but a +10 weapon cost maybe 10,000 gold. 

You know the enhanced, enchantment stone that people buy from cash shop can be sold right? And why do you call it pay 2 win if you can't buy gear or advancement. 

A lot of people play pay2win games but I think only very few play them and pay to be the best.

I think people reach a point where they get so obsessed with a game that won't mind spending a lot of money to impress others and reach a point when they think I'm really amazing look at my character, look at my itemsm they look awesome! but even in mmo's stuff isn't permanent because even online games die eventually because they can't make profit.

People must try to understand if they are playing because they are enjoying the game or if they're just playing because they like the next unique item they can buy with real money. If it's the second than they should quit the game but a lot of them don't and that's how pay2win/free mmo's survive, since only a small portion of the playerbase supports the game.