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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » what kind of people play pay2win games?

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95 posts found
  Sythion

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/11
Posts: 425

3/22/12 6:10:06 PM#61
Originally posted by RefMinor

 

If some guy trains 10 hrs a day at tennis compared to my 2hrs for whatever reason he deserves to win, if he trains 2 hrs and buys a bionic arm then fuck it, I am not playing the game.

I would argue that if a person trained smartly for 2hrs a day with a skilled, professional coach, whereas I just hit balls around the court for 10 hrs a day, a fair fight is definitely expected.

  comrademario

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/11
Posts: 98

3/23/12 6:26:17 AM#62
Originally posted by MMOarQQ
Originally posted by RefMinor
If some guy trains 10 hrs a day at tennis compared to my 2hrs for whatever reason he deserves to win, if he trains 2 hrs and buys a bionic arm then fuck it, I am not playing the game.

I've used this argument many times as well in the past. For some reason, it doesn't seem to hold too well.

In the manner that Professional Bodybuilding (juiced) will never be acknowledged by the Olympic commitee, P2W games will never be truly respected by gamers.

Was reading an article a few months ago about how by 2025 bionic limbs will be a big part of sports. A football player has a dodgy knee? Get him a better knee! Tennis player needs a better serve? Install a better arm!

Life is P2W, you're all fighting a battle that was lost many moons ago with this

  Bunks

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 987

3/23/12 6:34:35 AM#63
Originally posted by Pangentor

Can you name a pay to win game ?  Or are you making the assumption that all that are free to play games have some component in them that gives a significant playing advantage ?

 

 

edit:  needed a verb...

the worst one I ever encountered was BSG online. Bigpoint is famous for p2w

  Leethe

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/09
Posts: 876

3/23/12 6:39:36 AM#64
Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

 

 

So called "pay to win" games are played by a variety of people.

1. They tend not to inpulse buy and generally don't feel ripped off. The muppets who spend £100s or £1000 are near the edges of the bell curve. These are usually PvPers who are ultra-competative and will take any perceived advantage in any game they play. Most cash shop users buy a little here and there to ease their journey and are generally OK with not being as kitted out as the next guy. I would go so far to say that it's really those to have a handle on not being concerned about be competition and are happy to just enjoy the ride.

2. No. Most play these games because they are cheaper. Being responsible for their own actions and impulse control keep costs doen a great deal. it's always more about having fun that being the "best". Type A personalities need not apply.

There is NO miracle patch.

95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.

Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2937

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/23/12 8:16:40 PM#65

When my son was growing up, whenever we got a new game for the Nintendo the first thing he did was jump online and find the cheat codes sites. Without even trying the game first, he had the cheat codes. I finally broke him of that habit (I hope).

This is the type of person I envision "paying to win" in online games. The people who look for shortcuts, who copy answers on tests, who just do not understand the concept of achieving what they get. I guess some people who achieve in real life may feel they deserve to "pay to win" in their leisure time.

Truly, I don't know. These are just my perceptions of the people who "pay to win."

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  User Deleted
3/23/12 8:20:52 PM#66

SoE customers.

  Guler

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/05
Posts: 146

3/23/12 9:01:58 PM#67

The way I look at it people who have been playing WoW since launch have spent over $1000 on subscriptions alone, not to mention the cost of expansions, so it doesn't surprise me some people spend the same in free to play games. I wonder if Blizzard sees those long term customers as their whales.

I play quite a few games where they have unique features or items that can only be unlocked with real cash, a good example would be something like League of Legends, you can unlock new stuff faster if you pay real money, but you can also do it through normal in game grinding. I'd venture the average user doesn't spend more then 15 a month on it, but I could be wrong. I spend maybe $2-5 dollars a month on it when I see a skin on sale that I like, there is usually about one each month that catches my fancy, but $2-5 dollars a month isn't that bad for a game I enjoy. Also another advantage to a set up like this is I can take a few weeks break without feeling like I'm losing out on my subscription fee, since when I do spend money on the game it's for something I'll use right away.

My experince with games like Ragnarok Online have been similair, if there is something I really want, that can't be got through normal gameplay, I usually shell out for it, but the total per month almost never exceeds the 15 a month budget for a online game. However to be fair I don't go for +10 gear which people do spend boatloads of money on since upgrade attempts fail so often, and to not break the weapon it requires cash shop upgrade material. The advantage to the +10 gear is pretty marginal over the +7 gear that is well within the reach of a more casual player. For example the difference between a +10 weapon and a +7 weapon was 15 damage, but when you have around 500 base damage at max level that's only about a 3% advantage.

  Drakxii

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 599

3/23/12 9:11:22 PM#68

There are also lot of cheapos, poeple that really want to play a coop/solo game with a chat box, and of course people that don't want believe that game X is P2W, play those games.  

I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  xprezxjfk

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 7

3/23/12 9:12:27 PM#69
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

When my son was growing up, whenever we got a new game for the Nintendo the first thing he did was jump online and find the cheat codes sites. Without even trying the game first, he had the cheat codes. I finally broke him of that habit (I hope).

This is the type of person I envision "paying to win" in online games. The people who look for shortcuts, who copy answers on tests, who just do not understand the concept of achieving what they get. I guess some people who achieve in real life may feel they deserve to "pay to win" in their leisure time.

Truly, I don't know. These are just my perceptions of the people who "pay to win."

This

  garretth

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 315

3/23/12 9:35:36 PM#70

I played EQ2 for years...had the max # of alts...even bought additional slots...had the mansion and all.   I had years of fun and good memories.

I just logged on to the 'free' EQ2 and choked!   Out of all my alts only 4 were available to me to play...all the others were 'locked' unless I paid for additional char slots.   heheh.   Nevermind, that as a previous subscriber I already paid for those slots. 

It was a great lesson to learn.   SOE is losing it's customer base and is now using all sorts of tricky tricks to pull in some cash.

I was affronted...but then laughed.   You want to play you gotta pay (some way, some how).

I did have fun for years...and that is that.  

  gu357u53r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/09/12
Posts: 117

3/23/12 10:02:30 PM#71
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

When my son was growing up, whenever we got a new game for the Nintendo the first thing he did was jump online and find the cheat codes sites. Without even trying the game first, he had the cheat codes. I finally broke him of that habit (I hope).

This is the type of person I envision "paying to win" in online games. The people who look for shortcuts, who copy answers on tests, who just do not understand the concept of achieving what they get. I guess some people who achieve in real life may feel they deserve to "pay to win" in their leisure time.

Truly, I don't know. These are just my perceptions of the people who "pay to win."

And it's only worse, accept a quest it points you in the right direction.  WoW use to not be like this I started my addiction when it went open beta that is why it was magical you had to take the time to unlock the magic.  And I still to this day don't know why the combat log is hidden, it should come out of the closet that shy window is an RPG's best asset it needs to be shown off. /sigh

 

This is why when someone mentions a town or area in WoW I could easily envision where it's located I wonder if a newer player to WoW would even be able to do this since they just follow arrows, buttons, and sparkles.

 

Is this the end of MMORPG's for me?

  gu357u53r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/09/12
Posts: 117

3/23/12 10:17:08 PM#72
Originally posted by Worstluck
Originally posted by Theocritus

     I met someone in Maple Story that said he/she had spent over 3,000 dollars in the first 2 months they played the game..... There were a couple of other games where I met players that had spent alot but  I dont remember the games offhand...... Generally speaking though there does seem to be a certain personality type that pays ridiculous money for some of these games......ITs probably no different than some people who spend thousands more on a car, a pair of shoes, a dinner, clothes, whatever.....Some people have zero sense of how to handle money and some will spend every dime they have to either try to impress others or try to be better than others.

 

It has less to do with the inability to handle money and more to do with the personality of the person IMO.  People that can't control their impulses, much like gamblers or even a drug addicts, are the ones who spend all that money.  If it wasn't in a video game, it would be somewhere else.  Many f2p publishers know this and they prey on those people.   F2p publishers have figured out that only a small percentage of people actually spend money on f2p games, and a very tiny percentage of people are the ones doing most of the spending, so some of them really take advantage of said people.  In the end, it doesn't really matter because it is their money.  As long as they aren't hurting the people around by spending the money it doesn't much matter.  It sucks that people support this predatory payment model, but IMO it will eventually die out.  The f2p market is oversaturareted and will hopefully thin itself out at some point...hopefully.

It's not just the F2P gaming market that is oversaturated.  Have you taken a look at Steam lately?  It didn't have near that many games back when WoW first came out.  We are in an awesome time right now so many choices.  That is why the F2P & Subscription based models will eventually die.  Simply because there are so many online multiplayer games to choose from there is no way for an MMO to keep itself massive since the gaming community is spread across hundreds of games.  This will force everything back to the buy to play market which is the way it needs to be.

  kalinis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1444

3/23/12 10:26:10 PM#73

Id like to point out that everyones buy to play game , the great the inventive, the transcendent gw2 while buy to play will have a cash shop just like free 2 play titles like rom

Oh not all free 2 play games sell buy 2 win items. Rom tried to stay away from that. I havent been in there cash shop in a while but they pretty much steared away from pay to 2 win type items , 

So while gw 2 will only have fluff items , they are still gonna have a cash shop, if anything free 2 play wont die, sub wont die either for the top aa titles

Its kinda naive to actually believe this. I for one like the sub model, so much better then any model with a cash shop , pay 2 win or not . I dont mind paying a sub for a game that gives me updates regularly . Hell ive subbed to wow since 2005 so id ont even need patches every month

That said buy 2 play is never gonna take over mmo's for alot of reason. One being mmo's cost more then cosnole games or computer single player games to make. So they have to have other streams of revenue

Dont think so everyones fav dev, the altuistic anet who would give u there games for free if nasty ncsoft would let the, Is gonna have a cash shop/

  Gameloading

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/04
Posts: 14173

3/24/12 4:16:38 AM#74

Using the term pay2win for mmos is utterly ridiculous.

mmorpgs are not a competition. You´re not winning anything by advancing in the game. Also, I don´t know of any game where you can actually advance in levels or buy equipment. that would defeat the point of an mmorpg.

  stormseekaz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/08
Posts: 169

3/24/12 5:08:07 AM#75
Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

 

 

 I played Eden Eternal for a good 6 months, and I'd consider it a Pay2Win game.  It is one of the Online RPG's where you "enhance" or "buff" your equipment from 0 up to 10.  With each step having a failure chance and the failure chance increasing as it goes up.  Failure causes the weapon to break or reset, so you have to use cash shop items to prevent the failure from destroying the progress.  Several other free2play korean games have this kind of item upgrade model (Scions of Fate, and Nostale, from what I've played)  I think Cabal Online might have it too.

So, I played the game for 6 months and never spent a single penny.  However, I did play the game all the time, and craft/trade intelligently, as well as farm for rare items and gold.

I had several heated debates in guild chats where I was using the anti-cash shop argument, and pro-cash shop argument people were voicing their reasons.  In the end, I just pissed alot of Pay2Win addicts off by telling them how wasteful they were being.

So here are four different personality/role types I experienced when playing Eden Eternal, each of these types I had alot of interaction with on ventrilo as well as guild chat, and all of these player types made purchases.

The stay at home wife - she was the guild leader of the guild I spent most of my gaming term in.  Her husband was the original founder of the guild but he had a full time job and had his wife take over the guild for him.  He was a very smart guy with a good job and made good money.  Every week when new items would come out in the cash shop, the guildmates would then joke about how our guild leader was going to beg her husband for some cash shop items once he gets home from work.  The wife was not allowed to make purchases without the permission of her husband, since he was the one with the job.  They were a couple in their late twenties.  The wife was willing to pay money for the cash shop items, and the husband was not really thrilled about it, but he would appease his wife.

The lonely teenage girl - There was a girl who was in my guild for a while.  She wasn't the most intelligent person in the world, and I'm saying that nicely.  She did not make cash shop purchases often, she rarely did it.  But when she would make them, it was on almost purely cosmetic stuff, like pets etc.  She would use her own hard worked money.  The majority of the time she would buy an item and then give it to someone else in the game as a gift to earn their friendship or affection.  She only had a part time job and so she did not have a very high income.  Whenever she would tell me about a purchase she made or I'd hear about it, I'd get upset with her, because I knew she was wasting her money and how little IRL money she had.  She would shrug off my warnings and say stuff like "oh well I'll just work a few more hours this week".  I was wanting a in-game pet that gives a significant tanking buff, since I did alot of tanking.  I would mention it here and there but I couldn't afford it because I didn't have enough in game gold to buy one off a player.  So the teenage girl gave it to me as a gift.  I took it, but later regretted it, because I didn't like that she wasted her money on other people.  So I mailed her back an equivalent amount of gold once I had earned it.

The rich loser - there were a handful of males in the game who would get ALL of their items to the maximum power level, +10 as soon as they would get the item, and as soon as it would be released from the cash shop.  Basically these guys had max'ed out stuff as soon as possible and spent whatever amount of IRL cash was required.  These guys were very elitist and arrogant.  They also had striking personality flaws.  Basically you only had to be in ventrillo with them for a good hour or two to realize how big of a massive tool they were IRL.  So basically these guys had bad social skills, bad enough to hinder their success in real life, so they would make up for this, or attempt to, by being the biggest "winners" in-game.  These guys who dumped literally thousands on the game would often talk about their IRL financial status, in a bragging manner.  So basically they were rich guys in corvettes compensating for something, but it was an in-game corvette.

The average joe addict The last type I can think of is one of the officers of my guild.  He was a very intelligent guy, he had a decent job, it was nothing super special but he had spare income to play with, but he wasn't wealthy/rich IRL.  He would spend maybe about 100-400 dollars on the game per month.  I remember him once having deposited 200 bucks into his account and complaining about how much money he just dumped, regretting it.  He was a nice guy, easy to get along with, he seemed very normal.  But he was an addict to the game.  He liked to be decently powerful, like bargain powerful.  He'd get his stuff powerful enough to get stuff done and to handle business in PVP, but he wouldnt just dump tons of cash like the rich loser would.  So I can only say that this is the average addicted Pay2Win player.  They know they are addicted, they know they are dumping their money away, but they are having fun in the game so they feel its justified.

The rare spender / cheapskate (Me) - This guy has way too much free time on his hands.  He has no girlfriend, and no significant hobby besides gaming.  His IRL / local friends are also gamers, so maintaining the friendships while still gaming a ton is easy.  He thinks pay2win and cash shop games are a rip off, except for the subscription'esque type items that some games offer.  (Some games call it "premium" or "gold" status.  Basically the most bang for your buck in cash shop games)  This player is very content with themselves as a person, both in-game and IRL, so doesn't need to feed their ego by being the best in the pay2win games.  The player has enough time to devote to gaming that they can experience almost all of what the pay2win games have to offer without spending any money.  They can compete with the cash shop spenders because of how many more hours they put into the game as compared to the spenders.  The player is perfectly fine with being mediocre and enjoy the game for the gameplay itself and not the items/power status symbols.  The player is in-game economy savvy and knows a good cash shop deal when it comes along.  This type of player plays most Free2Play games for free for the entire duration, or spends at most 30 dollars per month for subscription/exp boost type purchases.  A good example of this type of player would be to say they were able to unlock almost all the champions in League of Legends and all of the runes they needed for every possible build they wanted, without paying a single penny to Riot Games, because of the sheer volume of matches the person played and exp was gained.

Oops, I listed 5 types instead of 4.  Well the last one is kind of the non-spender, but they still deserve a description I think.

Everything in this post is 100% accurate and true.  I have played many many Free2Play as well as subscription games, and I've played the piss out of them, and these are my experiences with F2P spenders.

  stormseekaz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/08
Posts: 169

3/24/12 5:19:26 AM#76
Originally posted by Gameloading

Using the term pay2win for mmos is utterly ridiculous.

mmorpgs are not a competition. You´re not winning anything by advancing in the game. Also, I don´t know of any game where you can actually advance in levels or buy equipment. that would defeat the point of an mmorpg.

 You probably shouldn't post opinions like this unless you've actually gotten your feet wet in some F2P games....  Allow me to enlighten you.

Eden Eternal:

There are territories (capture nodes) in the game which can only be owned by a single guild.  That guild which owns them gets a reward of gold per day.  A tax from the NPCs of that territory if you will.

When a guild defends their territory, they are being attacked by all the other guilds on the server who choose to participate.  So there is a prestige type reward, as well as a physical gold reward for territory ownership.  The "Territory Wars" battle is pretty much just a gigantic Arathi Basin with hundreds of players on the server from many different guilds.  Success relies mostly on the guild's strategy, and the power of the gear worn by the players.  Player skill is a small factor but no where near as huge as item power.

Players power in pvp is very strongly affected by how "buffed" or "enhanced" their items are.  Items start at +0 (normal), and are increased to 10.  The items get much much stronger the higher they go, and it becomes increasingly expensive to go higher.  Most players are content with items in the 3-7 range.

These items are useful in Territory Wars, Arena battles, and PVE as well.  There is a very direct correlation between character strength and amount of gold/USD invested into the gear.

There are many, many other Free2Play games like this.

  Gameloading

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/04
Posts: 14173

3/24/12 8:19:31 AM#77

I have been paying attention to the free to play model and its evolution for quite a while, so be assured that my opinion is not based on wild speculation.

What you just described is a pvp scenario that only a small amount of people actually particupate in. PVP is not the focus of any MMORPG and most that have tried to make it so have failed and for good reason.

PVP is merely one aspect of any MMORPG and doing well at PVP is not winning the game. If you do well at a pvp scenario you just described, you get ingame financial benefits. You´re not competing with anyone when your character levels up and gets stronger by gear.

and lets face it, leveling up and getting gear is the only reason to play an mmorpg.

so does buying buffs help in the pvp scenario you just described? Yeah probably. It is only one aspect of the game and to describe the entire game as pay2win because of it is silly. I would argue that there are far bigger aspects in pvp in mmos that lead to imbalance and im not just talking about differences inside the game.

MMORPGS are not exclusively pvp.

  Larsa

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/04
Posts: 992

3/24/12 9:18:26 AM#78

Well, the industry has clearly stated what type of gamers brings the biggest revenue in P2W games: it's e-sporters, competitve gamers. Search the net, there's a powerpoint floating around from a business conference where some game changed from a rather harmless item mall to a pure P2W concept, their revenues sky-rocketed.

Of course they had an outcry on their forums during the transition, but what:, the same players that complained on the forums bought their strenght buff, their healing potions, their damage increase scroll the next day. 

In general, for pure F2P games, convenience items, cosmetic items, vanity items, all things of items that can be equipped don't bring enough money. Sure, players buy them but once they have their new mount, their pet, the new outfit it's business over. The companies get a flash revenue through these things but no constant revenue stream.

It's combat-enhancing consumables and these lottery bags that bring the money in the long run.

(Edited to add: in no way do I say that all e-sporters and competitive gamers buy these things, but from an industry point of view it's that demographic that brings in the money.)

I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

3/24/12 9:45:18 AM#79
Originally posted by garretth

I played EQ2 for years...had the max # of alts...even bought additional slots...had the mansion and all.   I had years of fun and good memories.

I just logged on to the 'free' EQ2 and choked!   Out of all my alts only 4 were available to me to play...all the others were 'locked' unless I paid for additional char slots.   heheh.   Nevermind, that as a previous subscriber I already paid for those slots. 

It was a great lesson to learn.   SOE is losing it's customer base and is now using all sorts of tricky tricks to pull in some cash.

I was affronted...but then laughed.   You want to play you gotta pay (some way, some how).

I did have fun for years...and that is that.  

 

Not that you probably care, BUT....you do NOT have to pay to unlock those character slots again, you only have to pay a subscription again (like you used to) to have them back.  I know I know....it's neither here nor there and it's still stupid, but that's the deal.  If you start paying a sub again everything goes back to normal.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  stormseekaz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/08
Posts: 169

3/24/12 7:39:24 PM#80
Originally posted by Gameloading

I have been paying attention to the free to play model and its evolution for quite a while, so be assured that my opinion is not based on wild speculation.

What you just described is a pvp scenario that only a small amount of people actually particupate in. PVP is not the focus of any MMORPG and most that have tried to make it so have failed and for good reason.

PVP is merely one aspect of any MMORPG and doing well at PVP is not winning the game. If you do well at a pvp scenario you just described, you get ingame financial benefits. You´re not competing with anyone when your character levels up and gets stronger by gear.

and lets face it, leveling up and getting gear is the only reason to play an mmorpg.

so does buying buffs help in the pvp scenario you just described? Yeah probably. It is only one aspect of the game and to describe the entire game as pay2win because of it is silly. I would argue that there are far bigger aspects in pvp in mmos that lead to imbalance and im not just talking about differences inside the game.

MMORPGS are not exclusively pvp.

 No, your wrong.  There are examples of people being able to buy levels with USD.  Let me list some examples:

Drakensang Online, the in-game currency that translates into USD is called Anderment.  I am currently playing this game.  The Anderment item can be very slowly and rarely looted from enemies, so its possible for someone who grinds all the time to gather it.  But, there are several EXP based items in the shops where you spend Anderment.  There are:

Simple experience elixer: +400 exp.  costs 400 Anderment, Level req: 1

Small experience elixer: +1250 exp. costs 400 anderment, level Req: 11

Expereince Elixer: +2500 exp. cost 400 anderment, Level Req: 21

Improved Experience Elixer: +5000 exp, cost 400 anderment, level req: 31

There you go, a F2P game offering direct exp for USD purchase.

Let me list another example:

Scions of Fate:  Cookie's are items that you consume and for 30 minutes or an hour, you get a % boost to your exp.  There is also a premium charm you can use that gives you many perks, one of these perks is boosted exp.  So with no cash shop items in Scions of Fate, your getting 100% exp.  With all of the items together you can get 250 or more %.  Thats level 2.5 times faster, or higher.

I'll list one more just to drive the point home: Tribes: Ascend

This game works alot like League of Legends' payment style.  You get exp from every match you play and can spend this on items and upgrades, or you can just purchase the items/upgrades with "Gold" Tribes's RMT currency.  Gold is purchased only with USD.  You can also purchase EXP boosting packs with gold.  Also, for your first Real Money Transaction, Tribes Ascend will turn your account into a lifetime "Premium" account.  This gives your account several life time perks including a 50% boost to exp.  With this premium boost as well as an EXP booster pack, you will be getting 250% exp.

Many other games work like this.  These are examples of direct, and indirect methods of converting USD into exp.

I suggest you try some of these F2P games out instead of just "paying attention to their evolution" before you start making statements about how they function and what they include.

 

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