Originally posted by Voiidiin

Originally posted by InFaVilla

Originally posted by Voiidiin

GOOD GOD !

How many uninformed people are there signed up to MMORPG.com ?

PAY 2 WIN is not in GW2 nor is it in most games that have cash shops. Most developers know the dangerous road that adding P2W items can do to there paying customers.

Seriously, MMORPG.com needs to start requiring a basic knowledge test from new signups, something that screens out all the uninformed unintelligent spam posts we get hourly.

The second you allow people to trade their real money for ingame money, the "Get wealthiest" contest is already won by using real money.

Depending on what you can use the ingame money for, other "contests" may be won as well. Such as "most advanced crafter", "most exclusive wardrobe", etc. 

OH REALLY ?

Cause that happend in EvE right ?

No in fact it didnt even come close.

Back to my post about uninformed people posting NONSENSE.

As far as I understand, Eve has so much PvP and destruction that well-coordinated strikes can be very efficient against big spenders.  This is not true in the grand majority of MMORPGs.  The norm is that the worst thing another player can do towards you, in practice, is to make you lose a few minutes respawning. 

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by L0C0Man

Depends on your definition of P2W, but I guess if you're including GW2 you mean getting any advantage in the game by paying would mean P2W... so, it does look bleak from your point of view.

Both Tera and The Secret World will have cash shops, no idea what will be on them, but I'll bet that they'll have at least bonus XP for sale, so from your point of view they'll be P2W as well.

Archeage might be what you're looking for, haven't heard of a cash shop on it, but since they don't even have an US publisher yet there's very little info on wether it'll have one or not.

There's also Myst of Pandaria, AFAIK the cash shop there only lets you buy mounts and pets, though at least one of the pets there is tradeable for gold between players, so YMMV.

Thanks for the info.  Archeage looks te be getting more and more interesting to me now.  Both regarding open world PVP and at least for now, no p2w cash shop.

Sorry, they will have a cash shop in Archeage.. most probably just cosmetic like GW2.. but if thats to much for you. ArcheAge might be out, too. Sorry.

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by L0C0Man

Depends on your definition of P2W, but I guess if you're including GW2 you mean getting any advantage in the game by paying would mean P2W... so, it does look bleak from your point of view.

Both Tera and The Secret World will have cash shops, no idea what will be on them, but I'll bet that they'll have at least bonus XP for sale, so from your point of view they'll be P2W as well.

Archeage might be what you're looking for, haven't heard of a cash shop on it, but since they don't even have an US publisher yet there's very little info on wether it'll have one or not.

There's also Myst of Pandaria, AFAIK the cash shop there only lets you buy mounts and pets, though at least one of the pets there is tradeable for gold between players, so YMMV.

Thanks for the info.  Archeage looks te be getting more and more interesting to me now.  Both regarding open world PVP and at least for now, no p2w cash shop.

Sorry, they will have a cash shop in Archeage.. most probably just cosmetic like GW2.. but if thats to much for you. ArcheAge might be out, too. Sorry.

He clearly wrote that he is fine with "just cosmetic". GW2's is not "just cosmetic", it has a lot of convenience and the ability to trade your real money for ingame money.

Originally posted by InFaVilla

Originally posted by Skarecrow7

1: Really.. the ten thousand wine and cheese threads in the GW2 forums about the big bad cash shop aint enough?

 

2: p2w = item that artifcialy boost stats, damage, and/or defense. Or items that are the best of the best and only able to buy them with real time money.  If someone else has an item to get rid of say rez sickness because he spent $5 and I have to wait 5 minutes. Hey, no big deal. I will go grab the weights and work out (ok, will probably get ice cream). If they level twice as fast as me, well, my e-peen is secure enough to handle that.

How about five times as faster leveling and four times as fast karma acquisition? Where do you draw the line and why?

Five times, huh?  So they are selling items that give a 500% XP increase rather than a 50% increase over an hour?  You sure about that? 

Either way, I would still outlevel you if you were to use them because I play more and can be pretty efficient if grinding.  Not that I would in this game.  What would be the point of outleveling you?  There's no way I can use it against you so it would be quite the waste of money to bother.  Maybe it's just a pride thing for you then.  Maybe you see some need to have an 80 beside your name so that other players know you're a man to be reckoned with.  A man of rare courage and stalwart conviction.  A man who achieved the unachievable and hit the level cap ... oh wait, everyone can do that. 

Oh well, I'm sure you've cooked up some sort of fevered rationale to justify the need to outlevel your fellow players.  Good luck with that in ArcheAge -- and let me know how their cash shop works out for you once it's announced.

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by atticusbc

okay well since GW2 is your definition of p2w.... none of them.

If that is true, than we have reach a really pathetic point in MMO gaming history...

It isn't... OP is completely incorrect. Items that, for example, give you a little XP boost in a game where levels really don't mean a whole lot, for example, aren't even remotely P2W.

Originally posted by Sythion

Buying time != buying power.

Wake up.

Buying time == Less players

They should pay me to play, not vice versa.  After all without gamers those worlds would be pretty empty.  I guess they could add in some scripted player bots to make it feel not so empty, but it just wouldn't be the same.

Originally posted by L0C0Man

Originally posted by VikingGamer

Pay2win = Cashshop that I don't like or understand.

From what I've seen so far there seems to be 2 definitions of P2W that people use.

There's the one that the op uses, that any advantage you could gain by paying means the game is P2W. If that's your definition of P2W, then indeed the GW2 shop (and almost every other cash shop including the GW1 and WoW ones) are indeed P2W.

There's another one (this is the one I prefer to use) that only considers a game as P2W if there comes a point where you absolutely cannot progress any further without spending cash. Most F2P games use this model, either by locking dungeon, areas or raids unless you pay (AoC, DDO, LotrO), or limiting on the gear/abilities you can use by not paying (Everquest 2, RoM). In this case GW2 isn't considered P2W because nothing is blocked and there's nothing you can achieve by buying that can't be achieved (maybe not as fast) without spending anything extra, same with WoW, GW1, and hopefully will be the case with games that will use sub+cash shop like TSW and Tera.

So, which one is more valid?... I'd say both and neither one. It's up to each person to decide how much they're willing to accept. After all, these are games we play, not jobs. We play for fun, and there's no point in playing if there's something in a game that doesn't let us have fun, and for some people, knowing that other people can pay to get any advantage is just not acceptable, so there's really no point in playing a game where it can happen.

It's up to the individual to decide which game is better for himself, and everyone's right to debate the pros and cons of each method, but what I see as really damaging to the community as a whole is the attitude of "my definition is the correct one and whoever doesn't accept it is an idiot and a blinded fanboy/raging troll".

Wouldn't any game be P2W by this (highlighted) definition though?

In WoW...if you don't pay for Burning Crusade, you ain't getting any farther.  On the same token, if you don't pay your subscription fee, you ain't getting any farther.  I would actually consider your highlighted definition to NOT be pay to win at all.  Having to pay simply to progress further in a game is basically just paying to play the game.  Paying to unlock a new dungeon does not give you any advantage to help you "win" the dungeon...it just lets you play through it.

I really think any definition of P2W has to at least involve one player paying money to get some advantage over another.  Where you decide to "draw your line" in terms of what advantages are P2W is up to you.  Some people would consider a cosmetic item only cash shop to be P2W because it allows players to gain a "style" advantage over others by paying.  While other people would consider a cash shop that sold max level characters and all the best weapons to NOT be P2W because they rationalize that other players could have spent time to get all this stuff.

I personally, fall somewhere in the middle.  Cosmetic items are fine, but I think anything that allows two people to play a game where one of them can pay money to have an immediate gameplay advantage over the other player, should be considered at least partially P2W.  For example, if I buy a "ressurection stone" and my friend and I both try to do a quest solo, then I might win because I was able to ressurect myself on the spot after dying while he was not...that's an advantage.

Seem to me that the only game left is Asherons Call,give it a try you might get surpriced,one of the original mmo's still going strong with all servers intact non merging ever since game release.

Originally posted by Unlight

 

Five times, huh?  So they are selling items that give a 500% XP increase rather than a 50% increase over an hour?  You sure about that? 

Either way, I would still outlevel you if you were to use them because I play more and can be pretty efficient if grinding.  Not that I would in this game.  What would be the point of outleveling you?  There's no way I can use it against you so it would be quite the waste of money to bother.  Maybe it's just a pride thing for you then.  Maybe you see some need to have an 80 beside your name so that other players know you're a man to be reckoned with.  A man of rare courage and stalwart conviction.  A man who achieved the unachievable and hit the level cap ... oh wait, everyone can do that. 

Oh well, I'm sure you've cooked up some sort of fevered rationale to justify the need to outlevel your fellow players.  Good luck with that in ArcheAge -- and let me know how their cash shop works out for you once it's announced.

Most power levelers are in a race to be "first", what reason do they have to do it in any newly released MMO? None, but they still do it. Yet they sit at the top and bitch about being bored.

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by L0C0Man

Depends on your definition of P2W, but I guess if you're including GW2 you mean getting any advantage in the game by paying would mean P2W... so, it does look bleak from your point of view.

Both Tera and The Secret World will have cash shops, no idea what will be on them, but I'll bet that they'll have at least bonus XP for sale, so from your point of view they'll be P2W as well.

Archeage might be what you're looking for, haven't heard of a cash shop on it, but since they don't even have an US publisher yet there's very little info on wether it'll have one or not.

There's also Myst of Pandaria, AFAIK the cash shop there only lets you buy mounts and pets, though at least one of the pets there is tradeable for gold between players, so YMMV.

Thanks for the info.  Archeage looks te be getting more and more interesting to me now.  Both regarding open world PVP and at least for now, no p2w cash shop.

Sorry, they will have a cash shop in Archeage.. most probably just cosmetic like GW2.. but if thats to much for you. ArcheAge might be out, too. Sorry.

GW2's is not cosmetic.  I wish people would stop clinging to that very OLD definition Anet put out.  Anet no longer says that so you shouldn't either.  And I certainly don't doubt Archeage may have a pay2win cash shop either, but at least it seems they haven't officially determined that yet so there is hope.

It is just a sad state of affairs in MMO gaming that has allowed it to come to this.  I would much prefer a subscription fee. In fact, if GW2 just added a subscription fee which automatically granted all cash shop items then it would in some way be more palatable to me.  At least then there would be a definative tier of players on equal playing ground.  Equal playing ground is principle #1 in PVP games in my opinion.  Only advantages one should get should be based either on skill or effort, not microstransactions.

Originally posted by L0C0Man

Originally posted by VikingGamer

Pay2win = Cashshop that I don't like or understand.

From what I've seen so far there seems to be 2 definitions of P2W that people use.

There's the one that the op uses, that any advantage you could gain by paying means the game is P2W. If that's your definition of P2W, then indeed the GW2 shop (and almost every other cash shop including the GW1 and WoW ones) are indeed P2W.

There's another one (this is the one I prefer to use) that only considers a game as P2W if there comes a point where you absolutely cannot progress any further without spending cash. Most F2P games use this model, either by locking dungeon, areas or raids unless you pay (AoC, DDO, LotrO), or limiting on the gear/abilities you can use by not paying (Everquest 2, RoM). In this case GW2 isn't considered P2W because nothing is blocked and there's nothing you can achieve by buying that can't be achieved (maybe not as fast) without spending anything extra, same with WoW, GW1, and hopefully will be the case with games that will use sub+cash shop like TSW and Tera.

So, which one is more valid?... I'd say both and neither one. It's up to each person to decide how much they're willing to accept. After all, these are games we play, not jobs. We play for fun, and there's no point in playing if there's something in a game that doesn't let us have fun, and for some people, knowing that other people can pay to get any advantage is just not acceptable, so there's really no point in playing a game where it can happen.

It's up to the individual to decide which game is better for himself, and everyone's right to debate the pros and cons of each method, but what I see as really damaging to the community as a whole is the attitude of "my definition is the correct one and whoever doesn't accept it is an idiot and a blinded fanboy/raging troll".

Freemium games such as AoC and LotrO are rather new to the scene. The concept of "Pay to Win" was available long before freemium games even became noticable.

Back then,  the concept was used to describe something that many saw as a major flaw with Korean F2P games, which was that in order to compete, you had to spend money. Usually spending lots of money gave you an even larger edge over those just spending a little. 

The problem was not that you couldn't get the items from the item mall, because you usually could. The korean developers realized that they would gain a lot more money if they allowed the real money users to trade their money for ingame money through the item mall.  The problem was that the time required for a regular player to be on par with the large item mall spenders, were insanely huge. "Pay to Win"  was always connected to your ability to buy time. 

Are we talking Guild Wars 2 here?

Why don't they just focus their talents on expansions? 

Why do they have to go the cash shop route?

If their fanbase says they don't want it why would they force it upon them?

I would just play something else if your feelings are hurt.  I don't mean this is a bad way either I totally understand it is your money, and you earned it.  Guild Wars one was great because of the buy to play model, things change. Sequels aren't always winners, here's looking at you Back to the Future 2, I know it was pretty good but not as epic as the first or third one.

It is us the gamers that populate these worlds without us they would be empty.

Originally posted by InFaVilla

Originally posted by L0C0Man

Originally posted by VikingGamer

Pay2win = Cashshop that I don't like or understand.

From what I've seen so far there seems to be 2 definitions of P2W that people use.

There's the one that the op uses, that any advantage you could gain by paying means the game is P2W. If that's your definition of P2W, then indeed the GW2 shop (and almost every other cash shop including the GW1 and WoW ones) are indeed P2W.

There's another one (this is the one I prefer to use) that only considers a game as P2W if there comes a point where you absolutely cannot progress any further without spending cash. Most F2P games use this model, either by locking dungeon, areas or raids unless you pay (AoC, DDO, LotrO), or limiting on the gear/abilities you can use by not paying (Everquest 2, RoM). In this case GW2 isn't considered P2W because nothing is blocked and there's nothing you can achieve by buying that can't be achieved (maybe not as fast) without spending anything extra, same with WoW, GW1, and hopefully will be the case with games that will use sub+cash shop like TSW and Tera.

So, which one is more valid?... I'd say both and neither one. It's up to each person to decide how much they're willing to accept. After all, these are games we play, not jobs. We play for fun, and there's no point in playing if there's something in a game that doesn't let us have fun, and for some people, knowing that other people can pay to get any advantage is just not acceptable, so there's really no point in playing a game where it can happen.

It's up to the individual to decide which game is better for himself, and everyone's right to debate the pros and cons of each method, but what I see as really damaging to the community as a whole is the attitude of "my definition is the correct one and whoever doesn't accept it is an idiot and a blinded fanboy/raging troll".

 

Freemium games such as AoC and LotrO are rather new to the scene. The concept of "Pay to Win" was available long before freemium games even became noticable.

 

Back then,  the concept was used to describe something that many saw as a major flaw with Korean F2P games, which was that in order to compete, you had to spend money. Usually spending lots of money gave you an even larger edge over those just spending a little. 

The problem was not that you couldn't get the items from the item mall, because you usually could. The korean developers realized that they would gain a lot more money if they allowed the real money users to trade their money for ingame money through the item mall.  The problem was that the time required for a regular player to be on par with the large item mall spenders, were insanely huge. "Pay to Win"  was always connected to your ability to buy time. 

Bingo.  And this violates rule #1 in PVP gaming (in my opinion).  Advantage should only be gained by skill (e.g., intelligence, twitch, strategy, etc) and in-game effort (e.g., killing lots of things, helping lots of people, achieving lots of goals, etc).  Once you add in "buying small advantages with real life money" it becomes no longer an honest PVP game in my opinion.

Originally posted by gu357u53r

Are we talking Guild Wars 2 here?

Probably

Why don't they just focus their talents on expansions? 

Money, wouldn't be as lucrative.

Why do they have to go the cash shop route?

Money

If their fanbase says they don't want it why would they force it upon them?

Money

I would just play something else if your feelings are hurt.  I don't mean this is a bad way either I totally understand it is your money, and you earned it.

It is us the gamers that populate these worlds without us they would be empty.

True, but the reality is that I will play whatever game I feel is the "best."  If that game has a crappy cash shop, I will whine about it, but I will still play.  I think many other people are like that as well.  IMO, few gamers would not play a game out of "principle..."and those few are probably on this forum ;).

What do you win in a Pay to Win cash shop?

Originally posted by DJJazzy

What do you win in a Pay to Win cash shop?

Advantages over others who don't use it.

What advantages?

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by gu357u53r

Why don't they just focus their talents on expansions? 

Money, wouldn't be as lucrative.

That is just speculation.

Why do they have to go the cash shop route?

Money

What if it doesn't generate enough for the effort put in? They could have just left it to put in the next expansion so it would sell better.

If their fanbase says they don't want it why would they force it upon them?

Money

No that is arrogance, and not caring about the very people who made your company what it is today.

 

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by DJJazzy

What do you win in a Pay to Win cash shop?

Advantages over others who don't use it.

what advantages are those?

Well you are completely wrong about GW2, there is nothing pay-to-win about their cash shop so it looks like you have a very distorted idea what pay-to-win actually is.