Chaos Strike Back.

Edit:

Here is even a Link for the game including Dungeon Master, Chaos Strike Back and Dungeon Master II for free. It is old, but it is hard, especiallly Chaos Strike Back.

PnP D&D

yet in truth even action, fps, and such games types are not trully hard either in many ways. I mean it is a matter of learning, training, and getting better at the thigns int eh game from aiming to chaining attacks better, or even dodging. These are not much different then having to spend more time to learn what is weak against what, where to move that peice/unit, what gear is better, and such. It all is trully a matter of taking the time as well as effort to make the game more trivial. Even taking itno account twtch reaction combat that is something that you can get better at or are born with bettr ability to do, whiel with others a more tactical mind or such is mrely learned or innate to some people. In a rpg the amount of time you spend trainign yoru charatcer to be equal to a challenge, is alot  like in the real wworld with hwo you spend a large amount of time getting ready to tackle jobs that without the training is nearly impossible to do. So yeah maany rpgs are difficult in that you need to spend alot of time training your character to defeat tasks and yet if you wished you could attempt to defeat these tasks prior t when you are going to win no matter what largely. You can define hard, diffkicult, and challenging in many ways, but i can say i have never played a game that wa trully hard/diffiult largely including many fps and rts games.

Originally posted by Asuran24

yet in truth even action, fps, and such games types are not trully hard either in many ways. I mean it is a matter of learning, training, and getting better at the thigns int eh game from aiming to chaining attacks better, or even dodging. These are not much different then having to spend more time to learn what is weak against what, where to move that peice/unit, what gear is better, and such. It all is trully a matter of taking the time as well as effort to make the game more trivial. Even taking itno account twtch reaction combat that is something that you can get better at or are born with bettr ability to do, whiel with others a more tactical mind or such is mrely learned or innate to some people. In a rpg the amount of time you spend trainign yoru charatcer to be equal to a challenge, is alot  like in the real wworld with hwo you spend a large amount of time getting ready to tackle jobs that without the training is nearly impossible to do. So yeah maany rpgs are difficult in that you need to spend alot of time training your character to defeat tasks and yet if you wished you could attempt to defeat these tasks prior t when you are going to win no matter what largely. You can define hard, diffkicult, and challenging in many ways, but i can say i have never played a game that wa trully hard/diffiult largely including many fps and rts games.

Oh no, you woke them up !!

As someone already stated the only game I think that would come close to fitting what you are asking is Demon Soul.  This is probably the most unforgiving RPG game I have ever played.   

I never Had an epic fight since Baldur's Gate II:

Fight a Lich or any mage was a think or die( That's why I loved Wizard Slayers)

Twisted Rune fight was epic

Slave lord , just bring me memories; I still remember the name of the game with Celestial Fury- Koshy

I remember The crazy dance I didnt after slaying the Red Dragon...

FOr MMO, Anarchy Online "gear system" is not Noob friendly,  probably the only MMO u need 2-3 database, a calculator, multiple stat buff gears, other class buffs... just to equip 1 piece of gear(weapon armor or whatever) .

i think the hard part about old rpgs (e.g. wizardry 1-7, istar, realm of arkania etc.) was not a combat, but the fact, that there was no hand holding. You had to find on your own what to do, how to progress, which item use at which place etc. You had to actively look for things, they were not served to you on silver platter.

edit: as for combat - old rpgs were maybe slightly harder, but i dont think that much. main difference there imho is that what in old days passed as normal difficuly, without way to chooses any other, is now just one of the options called hard or even impossible. there were maybe more often some fights that were really hard, but that happens even now, e.g. heroic mode in WoW, some fights in the witcher etc.

Originally posted by cyress8

Super Mario RPG - hardest combat ever!!!
Trying to time your attacks to get that extra boost in damage was tough!!!
OOOO, Square and Nintendo, you anger me so with your tough combats!

sweet!

I hate to be an old schooler but I am going to anyway.

Although I like a good combat engine and for me no combat engine is good unless its first person with that all said, RPG's were orginally turn based stradegy games. Having twitch skills is not really a core base of RPG and really never has been even in recient history.  I am not saying it should be there, I personally think it should but what I AM saying is to suggest that its a requirement is being way off base.

In fact, one of the wonders of RPG was orginally the study of doing certian things in combat from a numbers standpoint. Instead of flexing one action or another you would study you options (aka if I cast this spell I will not be able to do X, do I want to save that for later etc etc) anyone who has played table top games knows what I am trying to say here

Originally posted by Shari

theres a ton of jrpgs that are hard also (nearly all of them tbh lol)

 

My jrpg experience is limited to the entire Final Fantasy series, Chrono Trigger/Cross, a couple of the Dragon Warrior games and Suikoden 1-4, but of all of those, each seems absolutely impossible to fail.  The games are designed to have you succeed.  As the OP said, most of the stragetic gameplay takes place in the menus outside of combat where you progress and customize your party.  

That said, I've actually heard a few different people claim they got stuck at certain points of a FF game and gave up, frustrated, though I can't fathom how that is possible.  

      I remember playing some RPGs that were pretty tough....You ahve to realize that a high percentage of players play these games on their easiest difficulties......Most of the hardest games are probably 20 years old or so....THe games over the last few years have definitely been easier.

Realms of arkania and to some degree thunderscape.

Zork I and Zork II

You need to define hard. If hard means you need a group of xx players for killing some mob then all mmo's are hard.If you ment you need a large group of players to kill every mob in the game then all games are very hard.Many people say that soloing in games is easy but grouping hard,they are wrong,if there are mobs in the game you cant kill without a group then grouping is easyer than soloing.

Originally posted by graggok

Star Ocean 2 the main quest is linear but if you want the really cool stuff you gotta work for it

 

I remember there was some social event in that game, where if you accepted it, the final boss became damn near impossible to beat.

Took me half an hour using Action Replay cheat codes to actually beat him like that. There had to have been some trick to beating him after that event that I never discovered. Otherwise I don't think it would be possible to win.

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by Shari

theres a ton of jrpgs that are hard also (nearly all of them tbh lol)

 

My jrpg experience is limited to the entire Final Fantasy series, Chrono Trigger/Cross, a couple of the Dragon Warrior games and Suikoden 1-4, but of all of those, each seems absolutely impossible to fail.  The games are designed to have you succeed.  As the OP said, most of the stragetic gameplay takes place in the menus outside of combat where you progress and customize your party.  

That said, I've actually heard a few different people claim they got stuck at certain points of a FF game and gave up, frustrated, though I can't fathom how that is possible.  

Depending on how you choose to grind,  most things becomes easy. Try going to Garland at level 1 in Final Fantasy I. As a player, you are choosing the difficulty and that's a part of the charm.

Other aspects of your playstyle affects the difficulty as well. If you are like me that once you get a class with a "steal" ability, you will try to use it on every enemy you encounter and search for those enemies as well, just to see what you get, then it is likely that you will get it easier compared to someone who doesn't really care about the "steal" mechanic at all, due to the numerous more fights you will engage in.

On the other hand, I would need to design my team in such way that my thief can do multiple steal attempts during a fight, without risking to lose. 

Persona 1 on the American Playstation

Xenogears

Planescape:Torrment

Final Fantasy 2/4

Diablo 2

Final Fantasy 1 Good lord this game was hard, I never beat it

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I hate to be an old schooler but I am going to anyway.

Although I like a good combat engine and for me no combat engine is good unless its first person with that all said, RPG's were orginally turn based stradegy games. Having twitch skills is not really a core base of RPG and really never has been even in recient history.  I am not saying it should be there, I personally think it should but what I AM saying is to suggest that its a requirement is being way off base.

 

In fact, one of the wonders of RPG was orginally the study of doing certian things in combat from a numbers standpoint. Instead of flexing one action or another you would study you options (aka if I cast this spell I will not be able to do X, do I want to save that for later etc etc) anyone who has played table top games knows what I am trying to say here

Dont hate, Im an old schooler too ;-)

And its one of the reasons why I found MMOs.   It brought me back to my early NES days where you had to plan your attacks, just with MMOs instead of turn based it was "real time"  (who remembers the 'action bar' in Final Fantasy IV :-)

RPGs are only as challenging as you make them, since you can always grind and outlevel content.  For me, I always tried to be 2-5 levels under the enemy I was fighting, trying to play through the story without grinding (which was brutal in series like Dragon Quest, but HELLA fun!)

I think they have made RPGs too easy today, starting with Final Fantasy VII.  By this time, RPGs became more about story (and easy progression) as opposed to understanding your character build to progress.  To the point that todays current RPGs like Skyrim has become exploratory action titles with RPG elements (managing attributes to build your character).  But there really is no challenge.

At least in MMOs you have to play your role to do some of the dungeons which brings me back to my early RPG days.  Now even MMOs are going the easy route with titles like SWTOR.  Currently playing korean MMOs (like Eden Eternal) which while they give the cutesy anime look of the RPGs I grew up with, give a nice healthy dose of challenge that puts the fun back in gaming.  At least for me.

NetHack.

Alternate Reality  -  The City

Originally posted by Votan

As someone already stated the only game I think that would come close to fitting what you are asking is Demon Soul.  This is probably the most unforgiving RPG game I have ever played.   

 

 

But isn't the difficulty of demon soul and witcher 2 mostly all in the action style gameplay?

I mean I think Witcher 2 is a great RPG but none of the RPG aspects really relate to the difficulty of the game just in how you chose to play the game.

Obviously this is a prett ygray area we are skirting here and it is somewhat confusing.  But I would certainly venture to say with good deal of certainty that the RPG parts of Witcher 2 (I haven't played demon soul only heard of it and read reviews) do not really contribute to the overall difficulty.

In in Witcher 2 the RPG aspects do not really unlock much the way of overall extra stuff and merely let you specializ certain key things.  All alchemy potions and bombs can be used with no skills.  All signs.  All swords moves are there right from the beginning.  Only a few additional feature on signs and some enhancers are gotten through the RPGs stuff.

Now I know demon souls you start to unlock very important moves through RPG mechanics so in yes the RPG mechancis are essential and not there from the beginning.  But these are moves like blocks and such.  Which really are basic action style tropes that require you to actively use them at the correct times. 

I dunno Witcher 2 and demon soul almost seem more like they belong in the deus Ex style category.  Its true to some extent that a real time action RPG like Diablo could also fit into this to some degree (and therefore basically most MMORPG) as you do need to do the right things at the right time.

I guess the main reason I differentiate a game like Diablo 2 from the Witcher 2 or Demon Souls is that timing is everything in the latter two miss the wrong things at the wrong time and you go down and out or close to it.  But in Diablo 2 gear and skills you take dominate the gameplay.  Not only that but there is alot more true action-style gameplay that goes on in witcher/demon soul.

Perhaps the true distinction is more about how much gear/skills/stats dominate the gameplay versus actual gameplay stuff.  I am unsure.