Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Originally posted by mazut

I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

And the moment you add "convenience" items, you have to put inconveniences to keep people buying them. Like that new "attrition mechanic" that can be waived away with cash, the repairing of equipment.

Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Originally posted by mazut

I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

Sarcasm dear fellowgamer. You are way to serious :) relax and laugh more

Originally posted by mazut

Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.

Originally posted by romanator0

Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

That's not the point.

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Originally posted by mazut

I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

And the moment you add "convenience" items, you have to put inconveniences to keep people buying them. Like that new "attrition mechanic" that can be waived away with cash, the repairing of equipment.

I would agree with you but the reality is that you can effectively evade the attrition mechanic altogether if you are good in the game.

You cant bypass grinding because its based on the Luck of getting the item you desire.

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by mazut

Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.

Originally posted by romanator0

Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

That's not the point.

Whats the point?

The only F2P + cash shop genuine success story I've seen is LOTRO's. It sounds successful from Turbine/WB's perspective and it is successful from a player perspective. It is possible to level all the way to cap without ever spending a dime of real money. Their system allows you to earn game currency while playing and that currency is the only currency used in the store. I've never seen a goldseller in all the years I've played that game, probably because there's no point.

The GW2 method sounds similar in overarching concept, but allowing cash shop currency (gems) to be tradeable does sound like it opens the door to arbitrage or 3rd party goldselling of some kind. More info is needed.

Re the OP, I've played both and used both. I know people who sub and spend a ton of real money every month in the store to max their toons. And I know others who are F2P and never spend a dime. I expect to play the game and will make a decision about spending money later.

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Originally posted by mazut

I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

And the moment you add "convenience" items, you have to put inconveniences to keep people buying them. Like that new "attrition mechanic" that can be waived away with cash, the repairing of equipment.

I would agree with you but the reality is that you can effectively evade the attrition mechanic altogether if you are good in the game.

The damage is done, the line has been crossed. Being able to gracefully dodge the obstacles they put on your path if you're good don't make the whole situation okay, I think.

Originally posted by gladosrev2

Originally posted by Mythios11

I'd much rather pay a monthly sub than have a company use a cash shop to supplement their income.  

Cash shop's are a slipperly slope.  Maybe they don't have a lot of "pay to win" items in it at launch but rest assured, if ArenaNet finds that it's not as profitable as they anticipated they will most certainly add more enticing items down the road.

 

Monthly sub is for greedy, talentless companies, who love to cash in by doing nothing at all. They force you to buy expansions on top of it, which should be free considering they are released every 1-2 years, which means you already paid in extense of 200+$ inbetween for what? Nothing at all. Please don't mention server costs, because that's just silly. There are dozens of games that let you play free forever, online, they somehow manage to cover the costs right? Moreover, when you pay a sub you are forced to swallow whatever the companies shove down your throat. With a microtransaction model you can choose what you pay for. This is how it should be. Of course there are pitfalls but ANet seems to handle it perfectly so far. 

The fault in your logic is that you assume ANet is like the others, but they have clearly proven they are not. They are doing what they can to stop the decade long ripoff that the MMO's have become. You should support them, instead of inventing false predictions. Besides you can always go run the threadmill in WoW, Blizzard loves to rip people off as they have recently stated, the "sub model works well" for them ;) Go hamsters! :P

Myself I like to have a choice, and I choose high quality, therefore I stay with ANet.

+1 sir.

My thoughts exactly. Go Hamsters! indeed

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by mazut

Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.

Originally posted by romanator0

Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

That's not the point.

As someone else said: what's the point.

You essentially said that the repair mechanic was put in so that people could buy repair kits from the cash shop.

I said that the repair mechanic is completely and totally avoidable. Rendering the repair kits moot if people are good enough.

How does your statement stand up at all if the mechanics, that are according to you put in so people will buy things from the cash shop, are completely avoidable?

Originally posted by mazut

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Originally posted by mazut

I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

Sarcasm dear fellowgamer. You are way to serious :) relax and laugh more

Actually the gems to gold thing makes me feel like I should rush my first character to endgame, farm gold as fast as I can, and play the AH day and night, plus speculate in gems, all to make sure my wallet never has to compete with someone else's.

Now, I will admit I could be overreacting.  I have bad experiences from RoM and FW.  In Forsaken World, it was impossible to farm all the manapots you needed for most classes, and people in instances got real grumpy when someone went OOM.  That wont be an issue in GW2, I have that much faith.  But I can see there being pressure for gold or supplies that cost gold for various guild and dungeon situations.  I hope I'm wrong.  I really do.  But if I am, I'll still have a level 80 with a lot of gold and will be able to buy cash shop items with gems traded for that gold, so I won't feel like a total fool.  If I'm right and I don't rush to 80 and farm, I'm going to be broke and feeling real foolish.

Originally posted by mazut

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by mazut

Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.

Originally posted by romanator0

Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

That's not the point.

Whats the point?

The point is that they will have to make these items desirable. To get people to buy them. Just like P2P games are filled with "carrots" to keep people subbed.

If the money comes from people buying items, they will need to make sure that people need them.

A couple of points

1. I do not now, nor have I ever seen anything in the GW shop, that gives an advantage, over what can be obtained in-game. Much of it is cosmetic. It's not like, "ZOMG, here comes a whole team wearing Tuxedo's and Top Hats, we're gonna get pwnd!"

2. I've seen nothing to suggest that the shop in GW2 will be any different.

3. For as long as I've played (6 years) you could and can buy items, or otherwise obtain items, that increase xp, boost attrib points, and otherwise buff the player.

4. NONE of these items can be used in PVP. Even skills that you can get in EOTN i.e., Asuran skills, can not be used in PVP.

If you insist on paying a sub, keep playing World of Warcrap. Although, even they may come to the realization that the days of requiring a sub, have come and gone.

Originally posted by Jaedor

The only F2P + cash shop genuine success story I've seen is LOTRO's. It sounds successful from Turbine/WB's perspective and it is successful from a player perspective. It is possible to level all the way to cap without ever spending a dime of real money. Their system allows you to earn game currency while playing and that currency is the only currency used in the store. I've never seen a goldseller in all the years I've played that game, probably because there's no point.

 

The GW2 method sounds similar in overarching concept, but allowing cash shop currency (gems) to be tradeable does sound like it opens the door to arbitrage or 3rd party goldselling of some kind. More info is needed.

 

Re the OP, I've played both and used both. I know people who sub and spend a ton of real money every month in the store to max their toons. And I know others who are F2P and never spend a dime. I expect to play the game and will make a decision about spending money later.

For former/veteran players like me it was more then great indeed. I bought everything in one month and 2k points even left. But for new player, wow you cant do a sh*t without paying a lot to buy at least 2/3 of the content. Then you can grind traits, cus you need em anyway and with all that new points you can buy expansion. But it will take you so much time that the next expansion will come and you will need to buy it again. Lotro is great game, but its huge sink if yo are not former subscriber.

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by mazut

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by mazut

Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.

Originally posted by romanator0

Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

That's not the point.

Whats the point?

The point is that they will have to make these items desirable. To get people to buy them. Just like P2P games are filled with "carrots" to keep people subbed.

If the money comes from people buying items, they will need to make sure that people need them.

Did you see the "Beta leak" Shop items? If not, do it. If yes and you still think that you need any of em to play the game... seems noone can change your point of view and you should move to different game.

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by mazut

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by mazut

Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.

Originally posted by romanator0

Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

That's not the point.

Whats the point?

The point is that they will have to make these items desirable. To get people to buy them. Just like P2P games are filled with "carrots" to keep people subbed.

If the money comes from people buying items, they will need to make sure that people need them.

As I already said: The items aren't that desirable if the mechanics they're for are completely avoidable.

There are also the facts that 1) things like repair kits are already available in the game for cheap amount and 2) if, for some reason, you absolutely have to have the repair kit from the cash shop, you can get gems with in game gold and then get your repair kit without spending a dime.

Originally posted by Mythios11

I'd much rather pay a monthly sub than have a company use a cash shop to supplement their income.  

Cash shop's are a slipperly slope.  Maybe they don't have a lot of "pay to win" items in it at launch but rest assured, if ArenaNet finds that it's not as profitable as they anticipated they will most certainly add more enticing items down the road.

 

You know. Now that you mentioned it, I'm convinced. ANET will most certainaly turn to the dark side and sell power items (shooting themselves in the foot/ go against everything they stand for) if they find the cash shop profitable. After all ArenaNet has changed right? They no longer have the same team or vision that they had  when it came to the cs in gw1. "Oh but gw1 is a different model. It takes more money to make! I know because I helped make gw2. The most effective income WILL be optional cash shop item sales". /end sarcasm. 

We often confuse ArenaNet with other f2p/ P2W Devs. I mean heck ANet could be as bad Nexon, ( charging $20 just to respec  your skill points in Dragons Nest), but they aren't that bad at all.

It sucks that all we can look at is GW1 for some type of track record on how they would handle microtrans among other things.  

I think the complaints , for a game most of us haven't even played yet, are getting a bit out of control.

ArenaNet needs to hold back on the cash shop for now. Take away the ability to trade gems for gold but make the Cash Shop items tradable instead. Or better yet just to help these forum skeptics, trolls , haters, and  cry babies. Take away the cash shop in beta all together. Right before the launch, have a poll  asking how the players would like the cash shop, analyze the results from the highest voted option, then implement a new cash shop.

I prefer a monthly sub over a cash shop with anything more than cosmetic items. It would be perfectly fine for me if there were subscription servers without a cash shop and non-subscription ones with cash shop. Then we would have some real "Monthly Sub vs.Cash Shop" PvP.

Honestly if they separate servers like that it might just break W³ PvP since subscription servers would always gang up on P2W servers, probably the other way around too, there would be some serious rivalry between the server types. They could have servers of the same type only face eachother in W³ though and let them face eachother in conquest where you can't gang up.

Originally posted by mazut

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by mazut

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by mazut

Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.

Originally posted by romanator0

Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

That's not the point.

Whats the point?

The point is that they will have to make these items desirable. To get people to buy them. Just like P2P games are filled with "carrots" to keep people subbed.

If the money comes from people buying items, they will need to make sure that people need them.

Did you see the "Beta leak" Shop items? If not, do it. If yes and you still think that you need any of em to play the game... seems noone can change your point of view and you should move to different game.

That's right, no one can change my point of view. There's no helping that. But I'm discussing these news in what I like to think it's a civilised way. No need to ask me to leave, I hope.

Originally posted by Brewsir

A couple of points

1. I do not now, nor have I ever seen anything in the GW shop, that gives an advantage, over what can be obtained in-game. Much of it is cosmetic. It's not like, "ZOMG, here comes a whole team wearing Tuxedo's and Top Hats, we're gonna get pwnd!"

2. I've seen nothing to suggest that the shop in GW2 will be any different.

3. For as long as I've played (6 years) you could and can buy items, or otherwise obtain items, that increase xp, boost attrib points, and otherwise buff the player.

4. NONE of these items can be used in PVP. Even skills that you can get in EOTN i.e., Asuran skills, can not be used in PVP.

If you insist on paying a sub, keep playing World of Warcrap. Although, even they may come to the realization that the days of requiring a sub, have come and gone.

 

Honestly I'm thinking about going back to WoW for a while (for the eleventh time). I will let you enjoy your Cash Wars 2 :)

Heck, even SWTOR looks better now.

Originally posted by Exilor

snip

That's right, no one can change my point of view. There's no helping that. But I'm discussing this news in what I like to think it's a civilised way. No need to ask me to leave, I hope.

You don't have to go anywhere Exilor. It's perfectly ok to discuss things even if not everyone agrees with you.