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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Raph Koster with another great blog article

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103 posts found
  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2146

 
OP  3/21/12 3:59:45 PM#61
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Torik

People in this thread seem to be focusing on the wrong part of the article.  Whether an inconvenience is challenging or stupid is in the eye of the beholder.  What you might thing is a brilliant challenge, I might consider the  brainchild of a braindead monkey.

The main part of the article dealing with how a centralized AH eliminates Mom&Pop operations was much more interesting. 

In general when I don't really know what I am looking for I prefer to go to a retail store so I can get a better feel for the products that are available.  However, if I know precisely what I need, I will order it online if it is more convenient and/or cheaper.

There is also a noticable difference between the way I shop and my mother shops.  I tend to focus on what I need and go stright to the store/section that provides it.  My mother likes to shop around and sometimes will not even get to the item she came for in the first place while looking at all the other stuff in the mall/store.  

Ultimately I am one of these people who 'just wants his bloody blaster'.  I want the best blaster that fits my needs and really do not want to deal with the fluff that might lead me to buy an inferior product.  Frankly I don't care hwo well your store is decorated if you make it too hard to find it or do not have what I am looking for. 

 

 

There isn't much to discuss there either. Either you like economnic gameplay in MMOs or you don't. These two sides will never be able to work together.

That is a good point.  While I really like crafting, I like the service side of it rather than the economics side of it.  If a plaeyr needs a new blaster, I want to be able to provide him with a list of options, help him pick one and then make him the best blaster I can.  I am not particularly interested in the fact that I can sell my ores for more than I can sell the finished product.  I like the social aspect of providing professional service to people over merely accumulating meaningless digital currency.


I was including crafting. I just mean, either you want a blaster instantly from the AH or you want to hunt for a deal. Conversely some sellers care more about money that service and some vice versa.

That is why smart players advocate for many different games. One game cannot please everyone.

See, I'm in between. While I don't like spending a lot of time searching for the best of a common item, what I want more is the better, more diverse game with loads of player types. My convenience brings with it a game that's full of players just like me, and devoid of all the other sorts of players. And frankly, I'm pretty boring. :)

So I have long been willing to give, to take on the inconvenience, so as to play in a much more diverse world. There's something magical in a game world that's full of life because of diversity.

 

Once upon a time....

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3539

Hipster

3/21/12 4:03:30 PM#62
Originally posted by jeremyjodes

You want a great MMORPG you have to look at the most infamous MMO warcraft, look at every feature then write down the anti-feature to it see how it would play out in theory.

For Example:

Instead of an "end game" you have no end only a beginning and middle.

Instead of levels you have no levels or cap.

instead of all items/armors getting droped from mobs/creatures/npc's..players can craft all of it.

Instead of having to do instances you have them out in the open world.

instead of rezzing when you die you stay dead until someone can revive you.

Instead of flying everywhere with a mount you are forced to walk ride everywhere

Instead of raiding NPC's sometimes bosses raid players and thier towns/citys

when you have a mini-map you then remove it.

When you have PVP and PVE seperate even the gear. you combine them so you can do both when you need to with the same gear.

When you have an AH remove it and allow players to run their own.

When you have only certain creatures in a game that can be tamed, you then make all of them tameable.

when you can stand 10ft away from a hostile creature and not get aggro then you should have gotten aggro the minute he seen you.

When you have a few pirates in a MMO and 5 expansions go by with no new pirate content. you should remove yourself from game design.

When you wake up in the morning and repeat a series of daily quest just to attain some rare thing, then after a certain amount of time you should be shot for supporting a game company that won't allow you sell the item after all that work.

If it never decays then make everything player created decay.

 

Spot on.
  wizyy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/05
Posts: 626

3/21/12 4:03:58 PM#63
Originally posted by Amaranthar
See, I'm in between. While I don't like spending a lot of time searching for the best of a common item, what I want more is the better, more diverse game with loads of player types. My convenience brings with it a game that's full of players just like me, and devoid of all the other sorts of players. And frankly, I'm pretty boring. :)

So I have long been willing to give, to take on the inconvenience, so as to play in a much more diverse world. There's something magical in a game world that's full of life because of diversity.

 

Sounds like you're waiting for ArcheAge, like me :)

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3539

Hipster

3/21/12 4:05:29 PM#64
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Torik

People in this thread seem to be focusing on the wrong part of the article.  Whether an inconvenience is challenging or stupid is in the eye of the beholder.  What you might thing is a brilliant challenge, I might consider the  brainchild of a braindead monkey.

The main part of the article dealing with how a centralized AH eliminates Mom&Pop operations was much more interesting. 

In general when I don't really know what I am looking for I prefer to go to a retail store so I can get a better feel for the products that are available.  However, if I know precisely what I need, I will order it online if it is more convenient and/or cheaper.

There is also a noticable difference between the way I shop and my mother shops.  I tend to focus on what I need and go stright to the store/section that provides it.  My mother likes to shop around and sometimes will not even get to the item she came for in the first place while looking at all the other stuff in the mall/store.  

Ultimately I am one of these people who 'just wants his bloody blaster'.  I want the best blaster that fits my needs and really do not want to deal with the fluff that might lead me to buy an inferior product.  Frankly I don't care hwo well your store is decorated if you make it too hard to find it or do not have what I am looking for. 

 

 

There isn't much to discuss there either. Either you like economnic gameplay in MMOs or you don't. These two sides will never be able to work together.

That is a good point.  While I really like crafting, I like the service side of it rather than the economics side of it.  If a plaeyr needs a new blaster, I want to be able to provide him with a list of options, help him pick one and then make him the best blaster I can.  I am not particularly interested in the fact that I can sell my ores for more than I can sell the finished product.  I like the social aspect of providing professional service to people over merely accumulating meaningless digital currency.


I was including crafting. I just mean, either you want a blaster instantly from the AH or you want to hunt for a deal. Conversely some sellers care more about money that service and some vice versa.

That is why smart players advocate for many different games. One game cannot please everyone.

See, I'm in between. While I don't like spending a lot of time searching for the best of a common item, what I want more is the better, more diverse game with loads of player types. My convenience brings with it a game that's full of players just like me, and devoid of all the other sorts of players. And frankly, I'm pretty boring. :)

So I have long been willing to give, to take on the inconvenience, so as to play in a much more diverse world. There's something magical in a game world that's full of life because of diversity.

 

 

Yep, the more types of people playing he better
  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2146

 
OP  3/21/12 4:24:11 PM#65
Originally posted by wizyy
Originally posted by Amaranthar
See, I'm in between. While I don't like spending a lot of time searching for the best of a common item, what I want more is the better, more diverse game with loads of player types. My convenience brings with it a game that's full of players just like me, and devoid of all the other sorts of players. And frankly, I'm pretty boring. :)

So I have long been willing to give, to take on the inconvenience, so as to play in a much more diverse world. There's something magical in a game world that's full of life because of diversity.

 

Sounds like you're waiting for ArcheAge, like me :)

I'm not too sure about that game. It might be a level grind, and those sorts of games push all the other game play aside in the race for levels.

Once upon a time....

  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/21/12 5:12:06 PM#66

The fundemental challenge in designing a good game economy is that a free market rewards efficiency, not fun.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/21/12 5:15:08 PM#67
Originally posted by maplestone

The fundemental challenge in designing a good game economy is that a free market rewards efficiency, not fun.

Every competition rewards efficiency and not fun.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3539

Hipster

3/21/12 5:17:04 PM#68
Originally posted by maplestone

The fundemental challenge in designing a good game economy is that a free market rewards efficiency, not fun.

 

A WoW raid rewards efficiency, fun however is subjective, many people find designing and creating their economic operation to be fun and rewarding, they are the people who tend to win at the economic side of the game, a good virtual world game is not one that a single person conquers every aspect of but one that offers many aspects to conquer.
  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/21/12 5:17:31 PM#69
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by maplestone

The fundemental challenge in designing a good game economy is that a free market rewards efficiency, not fun.

Every competition rewards efficiency and not fun.

I don't play MMOs to compete with anyone.

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5143

3/21/12 5:22:41 PM#70
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by maplestone

The fundemental challenge in designing a good game economy is that a free market rewards efficiency, not fun.

Every competition rewards efficiency and not fun.

 So don't make it a competition.

 

If you want to know about virtual worlds read Richard Bartle not Ralph Koster. Koster is like a politician. He says so many things everyone can find something they like in what he says but when you really look at it he hasn't really said anything at all. Long on ambiguity short on solutions.

"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/21/12 5:23:26 PM#71
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by maplestone

The fundemental challenge in designing a good game economy is that a free market rewards efficiency, not fun.

Every competition rewards efficiency and not fun.

I don't play MMOs to compete with anyone.

Well then who wins the economic game should be just as irrelevant as who gets server firsts in high end raids.

So the only thing I can think of is that of is that you do not like PvP which actually matters. Whether its territory control or combat, or economics.

Any non competitive game economy is essentially meaningless. Even PvE is competitive because you compete against the game. You cannot really compete with NPCs in econ.

  wizyy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/05
Posts: 626

3/21/12 5:34:34 PM#72
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by wizyy
Originally posted by Amaranthar
See, I'm in between. While I don't like spending a lot of time searching for the best of a common item, what I want more is the better, more diverse game with loads of player types. My convenience brings with it a game that's full of players just like me, and devoid of all the other sorts of players. And frankly, I'm pretty boring. :)

So I have long been willing to give, to take on the inconvenience, so as to play in a much more diverse world. There's something magical in a game world that's full of life because of diversity.

 

Sounds like you're waiting for ArcheAge, like me :)

I'm not too sure about that game. It might be a level grind, and those sorts of games push all the other game play aside in the race for levels.

Race for levels? It's a freaking sandbox, you get a mount right at the start of the game and you can be a farmer and not level up at all, just producing goods for other people, and plenty of other stuff to do.

  Indol

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 192

3/21/12 6:01:36 PM#73
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by maplestone

The fundemental challenge in designing a good game economy is that a free market rewards efficiency, not fun.

Every competition rewards efficiency and not fun.

 So don't make it a competition.

 

If you want to know about virtual worlds read Richard Bartle not Ralph Koster. Koster is like a politician. He says so many things everyone can find something they like in what he says but when you really look at it he hasn't really said anything at all. Long on ambiguity short on solutions.

I would suggest reading both.

You may not agree with Raph's ways but that ultimately comes down to personal opinion. What he does for the most part is, like you said, describe what should ostensibly be intuitive. While for you this may be a fairly banal approach, it does assist in crystallizing the big picture for people without the predisposition to do so themselves.

Each has something to offer, and so some people will get more from Bartle, and some will get more from Koster. It just depends on what compliments the mindset of the person reading. I think they both have value.

  stealthbr

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1058

3/21/12 6:23:55 PM#74

This is the method I prefer:

An adventurer is seeking to upgrade his arsenal. Depending on the specificity of the product he is searching for, he should have a list of possible options for purchase. If the adventurer desires a steel sword, nothing fancy, very much average for its kind, the player should be able to easily buy one at the local NPC blacksmith. If, however, the player desires a more specific or more refined weapon, say a masterwork steel sword imbued with the power to steal mana on every hit, then he needs to either: A.) Look for a player-run shop that sells such a weapon or B.) Go directly to the player craftsman and request the weapon.

Just like in real life, if you want to buy a good suit, not "perfect", you just go to the nearest Macy's. However, if you desire a suit that fits you to the most precise measurements, then you go to a tailor and he initiates an entire process to make your own personalized suit. This way, it is convenient for the people who just want to buy their desired merchandise and be done with it while also satisfying the needs of the crafter/shopkeeper/more demanding customer/etc.

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2146

 
OP  3/21/12 6:48:34 PM#75
Originally posted by wizyy
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by wizyy
Originally posted by Amaranthar
See, I'm in between. While I don't like spending a lot of time searching for the best of a common item, what I want more is the better, more diverse game with loads of player types. My convenience brings with it a game that's full of players just like me, and devoid of all the other sorts of players. And frankly, I'm pretty boring. :)

So I have long been willing to give, to take on the inconvenience, so as to play in a much more diverse world. There's something magical in a game world that's full of life because of diversity.

 

Sounds like you're waiting for ArcheAge, like me :)

I'm not too sure about that game. It might be a level grind, and those sorts of games push all the other game play aside in the race for levels.

Race for levels? It's a freaking sandbox, you get a mount right at the start of the game and you can be a farmer and not level up at all, just producing goods for other people, and plenty of other stuff to do.

We'll see Wizyy. I have yet to find enough information to be able to judge.
I don't care about "classes" or even "levels". It's the game play as it relates to the game world that makes it either "worldly" or "gamey".

Let me explain it this way. If the game play (of anything, combat, economics, trade skills, etc.) is divided into chunks that completely separate players from interacting, then it's not one game world. It's chunks. That doesn't mean there can't be minor divisions. For example, in UO you could make swords of varying qualities. Some were quite a bit better than others, and this was certainly a skill level thing. But any player could use any of them, just to lesser or better effect. This allowed lower skilled smiths to make and sell swords for less money, and the game allowed for reasons that highly skilled players might use them (cheaper, they are going to break at some point, lose them, etc.)

But in WoW, there's no way a level 60 uses a sword made by a level 20 character. It just doesn't have an affect against level 60 range MOBs. So the level 20 smith is limited to selling to that chunk of players in that level range. Of course, they added that magic sucking thing for crafting to make the weapons have some value to other levels, but that's nowhere near enough.

This is the difference between "worldly" and "gamey". "Sandbox" features don't really have much to do with this. But to call a game like WoW, even if it had Arche Age style Sandbox features, a Sandbox Game doesn't fit, because you don't have a Sandbox World.

But again, I don't know how ArcheAge is. Sandbox World? Maybe. Level Grind like WoW? Maybe. I just don't know yet, so I'm not going to get excited at this point.

Once upon a time....

  User Deleted
3/21/12 10:19:29 PM#76

Good read.

Looks like those who don't think so are unable to tells us why though. I guess you attempt to discredit people you disagree with when you cant make an original arguement?

The stuff Raph helped put into MMO's turned into the social gaming and media we know today.

The trash the newer devs threw out in their genius, is now where all the money is going, cause that's where all the people are.

A lot of people were very wrong in the mmo industry. OR people in high places made a perfect play.

 

Is a virtual world really so hard to understand? Raph needs to blog on what makes one tick? This isnt common sense to everyone else?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

poopoo

 

  User Deleted
3/22/12 1:34:47 AM#77
Originally posted by Cuathon

That is why smart players advocate for many different games. One game cannot please everyone.

A world can have many types of games. Facebook is a virtual world, angry birds is a game you play there. Or farmville has tools you can make it a game with your friends. Scrabble to barbie dress up. All in one world. How many hundreds of millions of people? It's funny, original SWG has more in common with facebook. Hell if you go through the lists of the reasons for it's demise from the experts, you pretty much have the exact thing the experts are chasing now.

 

Virtual worlds are and always have been the future.

Developers should start with entertaining their friends first.

 

 

  MustaphaMond

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/09
Posts: 344

"History is bunk."

3/22/12 4:17:10 AM#78
Originally posted by Fikusthe4th

Is a virtual world really so hard to understand? Raph needs to blog on what makes one tick? This isnt common sense to everyone else?

 

Not quite what you are looking for, but you still might enjoy:

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/03/the-commandments-of-online-worlds/

http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/03/19/should-virtual-worlds-change-the-real/

http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/09/10/virtual-worlds-in-the-ambient-cloud/

http://www.raphkoster.com/2010/02/26/are-virtual-worlds-over/

 

Taken from this aggregation of awesomeness... :)

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/22/12 8:25:16 AM#79
Originally posted by Fikusthe4th
Originally posted by Cuathon

That is why smart players advocate for many different games. One game cannot please everyone.

A world can have many types of games. Facebook is a virtual world, angry birds is a game you play there. Or farmville has tools you can make it a game with your friends. Scrabble to barbie dress up. All in one world. How many hundreds of millions of people? It's funny, original SWG has more in common with facebook. Hell if you go through the lists of the reasons for it's demise from the experts, you pretty much have the exact thing the experts are chasing now.

 

Virtual worlds are and always have been the future.

Developers should start with entertaining their friends first.

 

 

Facebook isn't a virtual world. It is a digital social space though.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7649

Logic be damned!

3/22/12 9:05:07 AM#80

Wonderful words by Mr. Koster as always.

Here's the rub - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

SWG type crafting system and economy was amazing and awesome for the people dedicated to it, but like Mr. Koster says, if you just wanted to buy a freaking blaster it was highly inconvenient.

So do you create system that are amazing for say 10% of your playerbase at the expense of the other 90%?

Ideally, you'd want to have a system both would enjoy.

I think EvE online provides a good example - player based local market economy, but with ability to search and compare prices beyond the local scope.

 

Now Playing: D3:RoS
Looking Towards: Destiny

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