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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » This is great. Guild Wars 2 is clearly working.

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273 posts found
  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

3/21/12 3:43:58 PM#121
Originally posted by Bunks
Originally posted by Mythios11
Originally posted by Bunks
Originally posted by Mythios11

What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.  

 

What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?

In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for  a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.

Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??

 

people like myself. Exploreres, group players, community wonks, ect.

Who this doesn't include- antisocials, greifers, hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay ect....ect. In shorter terms, mature human beings.

Want to know how, Anet designed the game with many safegaurd intrisic in its design to minimize this behavior, they also spent many hours figuring out how to get people to actually want to PLAY together. First thing was to kill the trinity system, kill raiding guilds, kill gear whores, and make the game more balanced for differning play styles.

You want hardcore- come to PvP. I will gladly show you harcore since all things will be eqaul.

Thats the point a few people here seem to be avoiding, all things are equal in PvP.

If a player REALLY wanted something to work at, something to be proud of, they could go be the best at PvP and win the WvW for thier server. Couldnt get more proud than that!

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

3/21/12 3:46:03 PM#122
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Adalwulff 

 

This system creates a void, the "haves" and the "have nots". That kills games fast, esepcailly pvp games.

Many players are here to have fun, and you cannot have fun with have the population because they wipe you in 2 hits. That a huge imbalance, there is no need for it.

This is completely false. You seem to have missed the part where... gear at max level is all equivalent, where everyone in WvW has levle 80 stats at the minimum, etc. You cannot two shot someone.

Thats exactly my point, the system you guys are talking about would change that, and people would be getting 2 shotted.

The way the system is now, nobody will be getting 2 shotted, because uber gear doesnt matter, so grinding for uber gear doesnt matter.

And your wrong about the level 80 gear at minum stats, only if a level 5 goes into the WvW does he get the minimum level 80 gear.

The players who are actually level 80, will have slightly better gear, but nothing too large, as to be able and 2 shot the other player.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7682

Logic be damned!

3/21/12 3:48:02 PM#123
Originally posted by Bunks
Originally posted by Mythios11
Originally posted by Bunks
Originally posted by Mythios11

What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.  

What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?

In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for  a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.

Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??

people like myself. Exploreres, group players, community wonks, ect.

Who this doesn't include- antisocials, greifers, hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay ect....ect. In shorter terms, mature human beings.

Want to know how, Anet designed the game with many safegaurd intrisic in its design to minimize this behavior, they also spent many hours figuring out how to get people to actually want to PLAY together. First thing was to kill the trinity system, kill raiding guilds, kill gear whores, and make the game more balanced for differning play styles.

You want hardcore- come to PvP. I will gladly show you harcore since all things will be eqaul.

I'm going to have to agree with Bunks here.

He sells his point this best.

Anyone who thinks GW2 is NOT going to be what he just described has another thing coming.

Well, except for the eSport PvP which is going to be a lot more competitive/hardcore than what most MMOs offer because it is very non-RPG oriented.

Kind of funny really, almost a completely seperate game inside a game completely different than that particular piece of it.

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Redemp

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1055

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

3/21/12 3:52:36 PM#124
Originally posted by DarkPony

Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!?

BM' ing this for future reference.

I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.

 

 Thank you ...  I was scratching my head the whole read.

 

  User Deleted
3/21/12 3:53:01 PM#125

Games encouraging players to be arsholes to each other.....

That line of your well written post get to the heart of alot of problems as an older gamer I have had to put up with and endure for far too long.

In Wow loot ninjas are rampid and no matter what format there is for master looter on raids even though you see a raid through the loot masters always give the tokens, or best gear to a friend or guildmate and now with the gear fashion system its even worse.

I played EQ about one month after it launched and that game for its time was awesome.  I'm not comparing it to graphics. or abilities (They never got the magician class right imo) but the community of eq was the best at the time.

I met many many players that would join you in a goup that was camping an item and if that item dropped no one would even dare approach the mob until the players whos turn it was to loot got their item. 

Then these good people would not just bail immdeiately after but would stay for a long time and help the next player in line clear the spawns and mob to get their item.

You rarely see that often in today's gaming world.

The second best community or perhaps almost tie with the EQ community was Daoc when it first launched.

The players had the same mindset as the EQ playerbase in terms of helping in questing, item farming etc.

RARELY did I even encounter anyone back then ninja looting or screwing someone in a trade etc.

If your character name was flagged for that type of behavior good luck because you might as well reroll completely as other players made it a point to warn others about that type of activity and those players were never part of any raids or guilds I belonged too.

So my point into the op post is that while I agree with his observations and his perception of the topic part of the fault lies within the playerbase.

This imo is because the general playerbase has the same self entitlement attitude I see in this new generation of players and they are not afraid to steal in game loot, say the most disgusting and vulgar things, make nasty racial and hate remarks and then have the balls to demand the easiest leveling format, gear progression format and then act like the achieved something wonderful.

The true REWARD and what made players GREAT way back when was the kindness, respect and willing to help attitude that made that charater shine above the rest.

What does it matter if the snob, rude, elite best geared group kills a dungeon boss in 5 mintues or a lesser band of geared players takes 12 mintues but has actual fun doing it and then makes sure the right loot goes to the right people thus giving everyone a feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment.

 Then your hopes and excitement of getting your chance next time if you did not get what you needed, did not drop etc,  are real and you look forward to grouping, playing with these fine players.

That among all the other op's points is missing in the gaming world in this new era of self entitlements. 

 

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7682

Logic be damned!

3/21/12 3:54:48 PM#126
Originally posted by Bunks

people like myself. Exploreres, group players, community wonks, ect.

Who this doesn't include- antisocials, greifers, hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay ect....ect. In shorter terms, mature human beings.

Want to know how, Anet designed the game with many safegaurd intrisic in its design to minimize this behavior, they also spent many hours figuring out how to get people to actually want to PLAY together. First thing was to kill the trinity system, kill raiding guilds, kill gear whores, and make the game more balanced for differning play styles.

You want hardcore- come to PvP. I will gladly show you harcore since all things will be eqaul.

I honestly think GW2 is going to sell a lot of copies initially because people don't really know what kind of game it really is.

Many of those people will leave after a while because you can't be "hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay etc"

But it is my hope that those that stay and enjoy the game for what it is will have finally found a home AWAY from all those other people.

How bad is it?

I honestly predict a good 2 million or so first month sales and less than a half a million playing after a few months.

"No raids I can't get better gear I can't... get better gear to make me not suck at PvP!" and bam, gone.

As long as I'm having fun and GW2 really isn't like the other games I've been playing since 2004, I'll be a happy camper.

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Eir_S

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4696

GW2 socialist.

3/21/12 3:56:24 PM#127
Originally posted by MorbidCurio

That's how I, and many others, view raiding in an online game. The item rewards are generally less shiney and impressive than in a single-player game, but when you can organize twenty people to all achieve one common goal there is a very warm, fuzzy feeling that is only just one step below beating another team at your choice of sport. The game devs (hopefully) tried to kill all of you, but your group came out ahead.

I felt that way too, til I realized you're almost always achieving someone else's goal - ie: the odds that your hard work will pay off for you are low, considering the loot is not evenly distrubted.  It's why I got tired of raids.  It only instills a sense of bitterness when you do the same work as everyone else for no reason.  That's why GW2 looks promising to me.  Everyone wins.  Both the people who want a challenge, and the people who want prizes.  And why shouldn't everyone win every time they succeed?  

Some people call this instant gratification.  I call it "Not stringing your playerbase along, in combination with a subscription fee, so they'll stay addicted longer hoping for something they might never get, and line your filthy pockets in the process"

 You're deluding yourself if you think GW 2 isn't going to have some form of gear treadmill. Leveling, in and of itself, is a form of gear treadmill and last I checked GW 2 has leveling.

But leveling doesn't create a division in the player-base at all, right?

 You could be right about the what, but wrong about the why.  Maybe a form of treadmill will take root in GW2, but since level doesn't truly matter in most cases, I don't think that's going to be the primary reason for community division, if there is one at all.  Your characters scale to the same level depending on the area you're in.  You can't show off how OP you are in a zone by one shotting things because the enemies will actually hit back and you and the person you would otherwise be way ahead of will have to work together or die.

So no, leveling will not create a division, no matter how you look at it.

 

  User Deleted
3/21/12 3:57:20 PM#128
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

One of my prime hopes for Guild Wars 2 was that it would have people re-evaluate things, possibly on a large scale, that it would have people looking at stuff that occurs that we take for granted as part of the system. That it would shake things up and prove that things set in stone don't need to be set in stone.

I'm familiar with the concept of a paradigm shift from a scientific viewpoint. Eventually something comes along, a new theorem that no one cares to accept, and then the evidence starts piling up in support of it and slowly you get more and more supporters. It really pisses people off, and everyone hates the change, but at the end of the day everyone still has a better understanding of the inner-workings of the Universe than they did prior.

And I really think that we need to do some deconstructionalist analysm of MMORPGs in general, there are many things that we accept as set in stone that clearly... well, aren't. The accepted paradigm of the MMORPG has a linear flow to it, and one that many developers have been afraid to break. It's something that's been so ingrained via both classic conditioning (pavlovian responses) and oeprant (consequential) conditioning that people believe it has to go that way.

What those who play a singleplayer or co-op game expect is vastly different to what those who play an MMORPG accept. And I think that the MMORPG has fallen into an unhealthy, stagnant rut. So what do we accept?

  • You pay a subscription.
  • You can't buy anything of worth in the game with real money.
  • You have to make time investments (called 'work' by some) in order to acquire resource units.
  • These time investements are massive and favour those without real life responsibilities or connections.
  • Excessive time investments cause MMORPG players to consider the genre 'hardcore' because of that.
  • Those who invest time ('work') control the economic flow.
  • Those with the best gear get into the best raids.
  • Those who make large time investments are entitled to exclusive content that no one else is.
  • Further content should take greater time investments and not be completed quickly.
  • In order to substantiate these time investments, a 'carrot' is needed.
  • this 'carrot' is exclusive gear, which is then used for further exclusive content.
  • That's when the raiding treadmill occurs.
This is a fascinating concept. Not only because I can't really understand the appeal, but because of the divide it creates. First of all, I want to cover not understanding the appeal. The lack of appeal in my case is that I can't understand why you'd want to waste your life for a constant chain of 'carrots.' There was one Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw video that summed this up eloquently.
 
It went something like this:
 
"So why are you raiding?"
"To get better gear."
"Which gives you?"
"Bigger numbers."
"Why do you need those?"
"The boss has bigger numbers."
"What do you get from the boss?"
"Better gear!"
"And what do you do with that?"
"Kill the next boss, duh!"
 
Imagine that.
 
The problem is is that not everyone is able to make these ridiculous time investments. You have people with children, a family, a job, social obligations, and so on. The sort of people who're considered 'casuals.' Now, the usual MMORPG talks about these people in derogatory ways, often considering them not 'leet' or not 'hardcore' enough. Because having a job and a child isn't 'hardcore.' So they sneer at such people and demand that the game be made more for them, creating more time investments.
 
But where did this begin?
 
It all started off with subscriptions. In order to justify a subscription, you have to pad out content. This means that instead of a ten minute mission in Mass Effect 3, you're doing a five hour questing slog. Really, it shouldn't be that long, but it is. So you get to the quest vendor and they offer you these 'carrots,' these rewards. The idea here is that more weak-willed people get hooked on the idea of somehow, somehow being better than other people. In some small way... better.
 
It takes advantage of them.
 
So via conditioning and peer pressure, the average MMORPG gamer then continues to spend their life playing the game, without even realising the harm it might be doing to them. What they get out of this is the feeling of controlling the economy, of being able to separate themselves into haves and have-nots, in order to sneer down at those who don't have the same level of access to the game that they do. That's what it's all about. That shiny mount, that exclusive raid, that high-end armour? It's all to be better than someone else. One-upmanship, plain and simple. It's not a difficult concept.
 
However, things are changing now. And that has those people terrified, because they can't handle change. What this means is that there's no grind, there's no gruelling slog. This in turn means that there's no carrot. That means that they have no way to be better than other people. This is something I've discussed before - Guild Wars 2 enforces player equality. It's an egalitarian game. Everyone gets the same chance at the game, through different methods of content.
 
At the power plateau, it won't matter if you've put eight hours into the game or eight thousand, you're all equal.
 
This is a terrifying concept to those who've ruled with time investments. Because for the longest time MMORPGs have been whispering delicately into their ears that their way is the only way. Subscribe to our game, we'll let you be better than other people. But the market is changing. More and more developers are realising that these people who want time investments to rule the economy are a vast minority (vocal, but still a vast minority).
 
There are casual players out there just waiting for the MMORPGs that are designed for them to play. And those are on the way. One of the first is Guild Wars 2.
 
And like I said, it's working.
 
What Guild Wars 2 is doing is shaking things up, it's altering perceptions. It's saying that what was set in stone was an illusion, and that things can be completely different. Those who helped set those rules in stone are going to rail against that. Of course they are. No more exclusive content for them. Yes, that's going to suck for them. Because the reason they play an MMORPG, even in PvE, is just to be better than someone.
 
But there are games out there for them. Games which encourage competitive PvE, games which encourage people being arseholes to each other, and games which encourage player inequality. And they'll always have those games. But they're worried that one day... they're going to run out of games and they'll have to play our games, the games of casual players. And yeah, that scares them.
 
I mean, look at WoW.
 
WoW, from the ground up, conditions you to want to be better than someone. It puts in various ways to force you to compete. You can easily accidentally flag yourself as PvP, resource nodes are instanced globally rather than per player, which makes people fight over them, and the whole thing is one massive sociopathic circlejerk. It's just people being horribly indecent to each other. But again, the old MMORPG player, the time investor, they're comfortable with that.
 
In Guild Wars 2 they'll actually have to socialise with people, they'll have to be nice, they won't be in complete control, they'll be equal. This turns everything they know on its head. And that's why we've had so many threads about this. It's old MMORPG players damn near having a brain aneurysm at all of the rules they thought they knew being turned upon their heads.
 
No longer lords and ladies. Just peons. Like the rest of us.
 
They have to come back down to the real world.
 
But what we're getting instead now is that they're seeing the other side of the equation. Just because there's equality, they're blowing it out of proportion and saying that money ivnestors will be on top. That's obviously not the case, but that's the fear that they have, because they're having these crazy slippery slope theories. You know? Oh no, we've lost our regal status, soon our slaves will be our masters, and we'll be the slaves!
 
That's not going to happen, but they're seeing things from the side of the have-nots and the results?
 
The results are frankly hilarious.
 
If I were a vindictive person, I'd pester ArenaNet to actually include an $80 monocle in the game, just so that I could buy it, wear it, and flaunt it at the time investors. But I'm not a vindictive person. Like I've said before, my approach to the game will be to find the most sensible, utilitarian armour I can and stick with that. I don't really give a shit about being the prettiest pony on the block.
 
But if you understand the paradigm shift, here, if you understand how the patterns are changing, then you understand why every one of these new threads exists. It's forcing people to question all that was supposedly set in stone about GW2. And like I said, that says to me... GW2 works. I am pleased.
 

 

AWESOME READ!! You win the internets today!

  Neverdyne

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/08
Posts: 168

3/21/12 4:00:14 PM#129
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Neverdyne
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

@Neverdyne

You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

 For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

 

You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.

 

There's a difference between a challenge and doing something stupid.

Becoming the No. 1 tennis player in the world = challenge

Trying to become the No. 1 tennis player in the world by playing without a racket and shoes = stupid

  Bunks

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 987

3/21/12 4:03:38 PM#130
Originally posted by BadSpock

I honestly think GW2 is going to sell a lot of copies initially because people don't really know what kind of game it really is.

Many of those people will leave after a while because you can't be "hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay etc"

But it is my hope that those that stay and enjoy the game for what it is will have finally found a home AWAY from all those other people.

How bad is it?

I honestly predict a good 2 million or so first month sales and less than a half a million playing after a few months.

"No raids I can't get better gear I can't... get better gear to make me not suck at PvP!" and bam, gone.

As long as I'm having fun and GW2 really isn't like the other games I've been playing since 2004, I'll be a happy camper.

You're probably right, 2 million or so with a large drop off afterwards. TBH, I hope it does something like that because 90% of my frustration with MMO's of late, were the people who played it and how they played it. If losing half or more of the population leaves people who like teamwork, fair PvP, and casuals, I will be very very satisfied.

  Jaedor

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 803

3/21/12 4:04:52 PM#131

After 13 pages, I'd just like to add my voice to the rest offering up some kudos for a really well-written and intelligent post. If I could +rep, I would.

 

Thanks for posting!

  User Deleted
3/21/12 4:07:04 PM#132
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by MwynForever
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by RefMinor
In the old days you had F2P titles with P2W cash shops, then in a glorious stroke of innovation Anet sold us B2P titles with P2W cash shops and a subset of the MMO population cried out in thanks.

Trolling again :D

ANet with GW1 didn't even had the cash shop when it was launched... It was implemented after and offers character outfits, extra char slots, name change, gender change, bonus mission pack for EOTN, pvp items and spells for pvp char only, and that's about it I think...

So where's the P2W in that GW cash shop?

 

If what you just said is correct then the PvP spells and items you said were in GW1 would be the standard definition of pay to win

Really that's pretty funny because just the other day someone was asking for help in GW1 in the pvp area I was in while waiting to play. So I message him and tell him maybe he should join a few games until he has enough points to get an elite that he would like to try out. I have all the elites he says. I have all the skills. Ah right, well go check out PvX or something and find yourself a build you'd like to try out. What's a build he says? Will he get it eventually? Probably. But clearly he didn't buy an I WIN button and I am pretty sure the people he groups with will have a harder time winning too until he gets it.

 

But he would beat another complete tool who had not bought all the kit assuming equal skill, money buys advantage.

Buying skills=buying spells. Not ability sorry if you misunderstood.  And in reply to your other statement that this then means that anet has gimped said player. No one forced him to bypass the pve portion of the game which in effect will give you the skill (ability) to use those skills (spells). Nor did he have to purchase anything to only play PvP. 

  Benthon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/11/07
Posts: 2132

Even if you can't hear me, you're still wrong.

3/21/12 4:09:53 PM#133

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to share! 

He who keeps his cool best wins.

  Rhianni32

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/10
Posts: 223

3/21/12 4:11:01 PM#134
Originally posted by Neverdyne
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

@Neverdyne

You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

 For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

But you can still work at getting things you are not forced to buy. You can work spending time to accomplish your goals. It sounds like your sense of fun is based upon what other people are not allowed to do and less working at your own goals.

  User Deleted
3/21/12 4:11:08 PM#135

  Great post !

  jinxxed0

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 845

3/21/12 4:11:34 PM#136
Originally posted by Pivotelite

Basically the people who have time to play games should not be rewarded and casual players like yourself with large sums of cash should get instant gratification and also be able to purchase anything they desire in the cash shop?

 

Is this what you were trying to say? Not sure if I am following correctly, well contructed write up though, I must say.

People with Time get rewarded.

People with Money get rewarded.

People without time or money shouldn't bother.

It's simple, basic logic.

  Rhianni32

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/10
Posts: 223

3/21/12 4:12:43 PM#137
Originally posted by Neverdyne
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Neverdyne
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

@Neverdyne

You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

 For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

 

You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.

 

There's a difference between a challenge and doing something stupid.

Becoming the No. 1 tennis player in the world = challenge

Trying to become the No. 1 tennis player in the world by playing without a racket and shoes = stupid

Does buying the best racket and shoes mean you will win the French Open?

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1896

3/21/12 4:20:12 PM#138
Originally posted by Neverdyne

The OP and many here don't seem to understand the concept of how the more "hardcore" oriented gamers are entertained, and what really is the carrot on current MMOs. You seem to ridicule the raider mentality, but you don't seem to fully understand why it exists. You see, it's the sense of progression what entertains people. And that sense of progression cannot be "felt" if you do not invest work in it. It's the same idea behind why, say, a poor child who really wants a soccer ball spends many weekends working on lawns to save up and buy it, and when it gets it he feels way better about it than a spoiled rich kid who gets a new gameboy for Christmas alongside many other gifts. The latter will use it for a while, but once the novelty passes that gameboy will be left gathering dust. 

 

How human psycology works is that if you work for something, even if the work itself isn't "fun", and you achieve it you will feel good about it. And that something, for raiders, is progression itself. It's not a new sword, it's not bigger numbers, but the sense of "progressing" through, the sense of "advancement" is what entertains them. 

 

This is a concept as old as RPGs themselves, ever since leveling was implemented. If you don't give players a sense of progressing they won't feel any "depth" in the game, and thus loose interest sooner. 

Then why is it that raiders are always the focal point for end game progression?  There are all kinds of other play styles out there that do not get this kind of attention.  Even games that start casually, end up with raid grinds that screw over any other play style.  I call it the great bait and switch of the MMO genre.  Whether a game is casual or hardcore, hardcores are always the ones foremost in the developers' minds when it comes to rewards and the way content is styled, especially in the higher levels.

Yes, there are plenty of quasi-casual games, but they're always corrupted by hardcore end game paradigms.  Currently, developers have this deluded belief that they can cater to both, so you end up with content that is not as appealing to casuals and yet is not hardcore enough for the super achievers.  If we ever needed a market that embraced niche gaming, this is the time for it.  All of this fuss going on lately is merely the beginning of the unrest gamers are feeling about hybridized and homogenized gameplay and I'm afraid it's only going to get worse before it gets better.

  Darknezzzz

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/10
Posts: 82

3/21/12 4:20:48 PM#139

That was a pleasant read, lad. I actually bursted out to laugh when read about the "prettiest pony on the block". 

Sadly, I'll have to agree with mostly everything you said here. Although I don't believe that people will be good. They WILL have to socialize in this game, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they will. 

There will always be elitist, arseholes, jerks, douchebags, you can call them whatever you want. But at least I know that out there are some people that do actually enjoy this kind of gameplay. And, hopefully, I will find those people and group up with them for even more enjoyment.

  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

3/21/12 4:22:58 PM#140
Originally posted by Tardcore
Originally posted by DarkPony
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by DarkPony

Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!?

BM' ing this for future reference.

I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.

Sometimes I love your wit and insight.  This is one of those times.  I'm just a little bit disappointed Soylent Green wasn't in the OP list, but I'll get over it.

[mod edit]

So much ad hominems. ...

*sad pony*

I could write a similar post filled with cleverly disguised personal insults on your rose colored glasses (which seem more like a rose colored welding helmet with a built in reality distortion field generator) but I digress.
 


Huh, yeah casual centric gaming. Sounds a bit like another game we were both following, eh Pony? Yeah THAT went well didn't it.

Uhm ...

Wasn't me.

Must have been some other pony.

(But yeah, you are right. At least we live to tell the tale ^_^ ).

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