Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by DarkPony

Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!?

BM' ing this for future reference.

I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.

Sometimes I love your wit and insight.  This is one of those times.  I'm just a little bit disappointed Soylent Green wasn't in the OP list, but I'll get over it.

[mod edit]

So much ad hominems. ...

*sad pony*

I could write a similar post filled with cleverly disguised personal insults on your rose colored glasses (which seem more like a rose colored welding helmet with a built in reality distortion field generator) but I digress.
 

Huh, yeah casual centric gaming. Sounds a bit like another game we were both following, eh Pony? Yeah THAT went well didn't it.

Dreamchaser,

I came into your thread agreeing with you, and happy that you were articulately explaining the necessity of change in MMOs, and the dominance of time (which I would have probably raged against 10 years ago, when I had it!).

Then your post fell so deeply into hyperbole that I began to question my own beliefs. Consequently, I am now less interested in GW2, and feel slightly ashamed for being so much of a fanboy.

IMO (now), this is a small step, not a revolution.

Ever since WOW's carrot on the stick gear elitism design, mmo's have suffered greatly. I remember back in my SWG days wanting to unlock a jedi. It took me over 7 months to unlock and skill him up to full template. Did i think that i was more of a elite player for the time invested than a master craftsman that had a customer list that was long as my arm, hell no. On the other hand was there others that felt they were better because they unlocked a jedi, probably yes, but it just didn't feel that way as how it did/does in WOW or all the other games that followed that carrot design.

I really feel it was because of the openess and player interdependency that SWG had in place, i needed things that others did and made and the circle kept moving. Yea i could swing a glow bat around, but having my name on the top of a Bounty Hunters list and having to go toe to toe with players that were as equally as skilled as i was and not relying on who had the best gear is what made great gameplay.

If GW2 can capture just a little bit of that type of player dynamics and interdependency, then they will have done something that has been needed to come back for a long time.

Originally posted by Sythion

Dreamchaser,

I came into your thread agreeing with you, and happy that you were articulately explaining the necessity of change in MMOs, and the dominance of time (which I would have probably raged against 10 years ago, when I had it!).

Then your post fell so deeply into hyperbole that I began to question my own beliefs. Consequently, I am now less interested in GW2, and feel slightly ashamed for being so much of a fanboy.

IMO (now), this is a small step, not a revolution.

Time will tell if it's even a small step.

Everybody thought GW 1 was going to 'change everything', then they saw it as a 'small step'.

It's been neither. Nobody is trying to expand upon what GW 1 did except for ANet with GW 2. Supposedly, GW 1 sold really well, but NOBODY is trying to follow a similar format.

Nobody has even announced a game similar to GW 2, but somehow we're supposed to believe it's going to be a giant revolution in the industry.

It's going to release to much fanfair, then people are going to see that it's nothing new and the hype will die down within three months.

I''ve never seen such a great op turn into poor written name calling so fast. I disagree with most of the points, however, the original post was incredibly constructed. The reason I'm responding though is because the op and his quip about self entitlement.

It's extremely funny that he calls out those with more time spent in a game, and calls them entitled. When to me it's just the other way around. Casual gamers (which I am) seem to want to be able to log into their chosen game and have their mailbox filled with items on par with raiding items. To me the only ones exhuding entitlement are casual players.

Eventually, the whine and casual passive-aggressive complaints are going to change mmo's the want they want them to be. I can see it now, upon character creation you will choose whether you're a hardcore player or a casual player.

Upon choosing hardcore players will log on and play the game how they want to. Then casual players will receive the same amount of xp as the hardcore player does while sitting in the starting city. On top of that, any piece of shiny new gear that the hardcore player finds is immediately duplicated and mailed to all casual players.

Seems like a glorious game to me, finally the time vs rewards arguement will be solved.

I liked your post but I think you generalized a bit too much.  Most folks are much more complex and their reasons for playing a game much more varied than you outlined.

For instance:

I am a hardcore casual...hardcore in that I play daily for a couple of hours, and casual in that I rarely reach max level.

I hate to feel controlled by an experience bar.  I will go off and explore, or try to find treasure, or do a couple of quests, play a bit of pvp, take care of my house (if I have one), bring out my favorite pets and mounts because I like to look at them, check out my outfit to see if it still appeals to my taste, look for an achievement to complete, talk with folks if they stay still for a min or two, etc.

So why am I telling you all this?   I'm ready for GW2.   I can't wait to play by their ruleset and experience the game through their vision. 

To me, a great mmo offers a variety of cool things to do, to be and to acquire (even if it is virtual).

I coulld careless about the game. Calling ppl out of thier names because they disagree with you POV is shameful.

Basically the people who have time to play games should not be rewarded and casual players like yourself with large sums of cash should get instant gratification and also be able to purchase anything they desire in the cash shop?

Is this what you were trying to say? Not sure if I am following correctly, well contructed write up though, I must say.

Where i can try this game so i can see if is that true what are you writing? Or is that just a wish. I was for some time in first gw  and comunity was not so super awesome, so i wonder why you except from new gw comunity to be something special and one holy example in mmo world?  But i must give a credit to gw2 fan club--you have a really good imagination guys :). I wish you a luck but i think this game is not something what can start new era of mmo gaming. Good yes but nothing more and nothing less.

Originally posted by grindery

I''ve never seen such a great op turn into poor written name calling so fast. I disagree with most of the points, however, the original post was incredibly constructed. The reason I'm responding though is because the op and his quip about self entitlement.

It's extremely funny that he calls out those with more time spent in a game, and calls them entitled. When to me it's just the other way around. Casual gamers (which I am) seem to want to be able to log into their chosen game and have their mailbox filled with items on par with raiding items. To me the only ones exhuding entitlement are casual players.

Eventually, the whine and casual passive-aggressive complaints are going to change mmo's the want they want them to be. I can see it now, upon character creation you will choose whether you're a hardcore player or a casual player.

Upon choosing hardcore players will log on and play the game how they want to. Then casual players will receive the same amount of xp as the hardcore player does while sitting in the starting city. On top of that, any piece of shiny new gear that the hardcore player finds is immediately duplicated and mailed to all casual players.

Seems like a glorious game to me, finally the time vs rewards arguement will be solved.

Don't forget! No more classes!

Upon starting to simply choose to either be an Angel or a Demon.

Either one can tank, heal and DPS with the only difference being a simple series of sliders that you can move around on your character sheet.

All gear is just cosmetic, but since the casuals don't want to actually hunt down better skins they just have them mailed to them whenever a hardcore finds a new one.

Any time a hardcore finds a rare mount or pet the casuals on the server have the option to spawn that item in their pack just by clicking a button.

Originally posted by Pivotelite

Basically the people who have time to play games should not be rewarded and casual players like yourself with large sums of cash should get instant gratification and also be able to purchase anything they desire in the cash shop?

 

Is this what you were trying to say? Not sure if I am following correctly, well contructed write up though, I must say.

+10

Originally posted by grindery

I''ve never seen such a great op turn into poor written name calling so fast. I disagree with most of the points, however, the original post was incredibly constructed. The reason I'm responding though is because the op and his quip about self entitlement.

It's extremely funny that he calls out those with more time spent in a game, and calls them entitled. When to me it's just the other way around. Casual gamers (which I am) seem to want to be able to log into their chosen game and have their mailbox filled with items on par with raiding items. To me the only ones exhuding entitlement are casual players.

Eventually, the whine and casual passive-aggressive complaints are going to change mmo's the want they want them to be. I can see it now, upon character creation you will choose whether you're a hardcore player or a casual player.

Upon choosing hardcore players will log on and play the game how they want to. Then casual players will receive the same amount of xp as the hardcore player does while sitting in the starting city. On top of that, any piece of shiny new gear that the hardcore player finds is immediately duplicated and mailed to all casual players.

Seems like a glorious game to me, finally the time vs rewards arguement will be solved.

FINALLY someone nailed it. 

2 pages of simple cheerleading and no one seemed to get it.

Instead they choose to see thru their rose-tinted glasses and  dance around in their fanboy shirts around the real topics at hand and pretend everything is ok, and everyone else is completely wrong if they disagree.

Originally posted by MorbidCurio

Don't forget! No more classes!

Upon starting to simply choose to either be an Angel or a Demon.

Either one can tank, heal and DPS with the only difference being a simple series of sliders that you can move around on your character sheet.

All gear is just cosmetic, but since the casuals don't want to actually hunt down better skins they just have them mailed to them whenever a hardcore finds a new one.

Any time a hardcore finds a rare mount or pet the casuals on the server have the option to spawn that item in their pack just by clicking a button.

The thread title sounded sarcastic in my head. I was expecting a hate thread.

Originally posted by RefMinor
In the old days you had F2P titles with P2W cash shops, then in a glorious stroke of innovation Anet sold us B2P titles with P2W cash shops and a subset of the MMO population cried out in thanks.

[mod edit]

ANet with GW1 didn't even had the cash shop when it was launched... It was implemented after and offers character outfits, extra char slots, name change, gender change, bonus mission pack for EOTN, pvp items and spells for pvp char only, and that's about it I think...

So where's the P2W in that GW cash shop?

Originally posted by Somsbal

Originally posted by MorbidCurio

Don't forget! No more classes!

Upon starting to simply choose to either be an Angel or a Demon.

Either one can tank, heal and DPS with the only difference being a simple series of sliders that you can move around on your character sheet.

All gear is just cosmetic, but since the casuals don't want to actually hunt down better skins they just have them mailed to them whenever a hardcore finds a new one.

Any time a hardcore finds a rare mount or pet the casuals on the server have the option to spawn that item in their pack just by clicking a button.

Sisco facepalm. Exactly.

Maybe I need a sarcasm font since you don't seem to get it.

The OP is a good, well written post.  But I have a bit of a different point of view that I want to put out there.

I have never been about grinding for items, oneups-manship, or anything like that.  My proof of this is that I have NEVER got max level in any MMORPG (except for AoC and that was because of a bug).  I'm more about playing the game...I'm not interested in grinding the same tasks over and over again to get a shiny bauble.  If I really enjoy an MMORPG...I usually play until just about max level and then quit or start an alt because I'm not interested in grinding after getting max level.

And yet, I am extremely put off by the whole RMT / buying gold for cash thing...but for entirely different reasons you think.

First, I like to envision an MMORPG as a little encapsulated world.  Everything you achieve in an MMORPG should (IMO) be due to your efforts in the MMORPG, and nothing else.  Even if that effort is joining a wealthy guild that helps you out...that still counts.  It just makes it more immersive.  But once you allow people to spend real money for gold, the world is no longer encapsulated.  I can literally spend a few minutes in the MMORPG world and be the richest person in the game without talking to anyone, by simply paying cash.

Second, I'm kind of old school.  And back in the day of the NES, whenever a game was too hard, you would use a cheat code.  The cheat code just gave you some kind of advantage to make the game easier.  But now cash shops offer in-game advantages (gold counts) for money...and to me, this is kind of like selling "cheats."  It just doesn't sit well for me that I now have to pay everytime I press "up down up down left right left right BABA Start."  Imagine if Contra made you do that?  My parents would have been pissed!

Also...cheats have never been in MMORPGs and there's a reason for that.  Because if they were, then everyone woudl cheat and completely compromise the game.  I don't really see how it's better that now only people who pay can "cheat."  I grant that the cheats aren't nearly as severe as they are in SP games...but the point stands.

Originally posted by RefMinor
In the old days you had F2P titles with P2W cash shops, then in a glorious stroke of innovation Anet sold us B2P titles with P2W cash shops and a subset of the MMO population cried out in thanks.

LOL :).  I know right?  Buying gold totally sucked until ANet did it!

Originally posted by MorbidCurio

Maybe I need a sarcasm font since you don't seem to get it.