Originally posted by Temerit

MMORole-playingGame

Just so you know, story is a one of the main pillars to great rpgs. Obviously this correlates into MMOs. 

The difference between an MMO with no story and one with a great story is how effective the villains are. If you know the story, and its a good one, youll want to beat the piss out of General Killfinger(Im bad at naming) a thousand times more than if you dont. It makes it personal. It stops being about acheivements or gear or bragging rights and it turns into a moment that defines amazing games.

Player affected story is critical to RPGs. Not the stories in WoW and SWTOR.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Temerit

MMORole-playingGame

Just so you know, story is a one of the main pillars to great rpgs. Obviously this correlates into MMOs. 

The difference between an MMO with no story and one with a great story is how effective the villains are. If you know the story, and its a good one, youll want to beat the piss out of General Killfinger(Im bad at naming) a thousand times more than if you dont. It makes it personal. It stops being about acheivements or gear or bragging rights and it turns into a moment that defines amazing games.

Player affected story is critical to RPGs. Not the stories in WoW and SWTOR.

How so?

Deus Ex has a good story that the player affects very little of it. Same for Skyrim. How are those stories not critical for these RPG games?

I think he meant player affected story is critical in MMO's

Originally posted by lifesbrink

I think he meant player affected story is critical in MMO's

That is obviously not true. Crtiical how? Certainly NOT critical to MMO's successes.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Temerit

MMORole-playingGame

Just so you know, story is a one of the main pillars to great rpgs. Obviously this correlates into MMOs. 

The difference between an MMO with no story and one with a great story is how effective the villains are. If you know the story, and its a good one, youll want to beat the piss out of General Killfinger(Im bad at naming) a thousand times more than if you dont. It makes it personal. It stops being about acheivements or gear or bragging rights and it turns into a moment that defines amazing games.

Player affected story is critical to RPGs. Not the stories in WoW and SWTOR.

 In no way is players being able to affect a story in the world or setting critical, and in actuality in many ways as the stories grow upwards from the personal player story up to a much larger zone, faction, or world arc story the less a single players actions should have on the story or events in the game. Weither the stories in wow, swtor, or even the few story-lore you have in older pre-wow games like UO matter is up to the player, and is more of a personal thing on a game by game basis. As such in no way can we say that wow's story arcs are less critical to rpgs, then any other story from games, as the story/events of a setting are what give true depth to the world/setting, just like how news stories and events in the world give our world depth even though we can not affect them personaly.

I agree. In an MMORPG the 'story' should refer to the lore, the background, the setting. Then the game should facilitate the players making their own stories.  Any MMO that casts every players' characters as the 'hero' of the storyline is ridiculous.

I disagree.

Ive played many mmorpg's which have had fantastic, interactive and fun storylines.

Im one of the wierdos who read the quest text and roleplay,  and enjoy the enviroment.

Gameplays great, but if there is nothing for me to feel involved with, i dont want to play it.

If theres no 'world' for me to be involved in, then whats the point? Surely we all play mmorpgs to escape the real world.

I actually think that affecting the game world will have more impact on future MMO's...look at the community of the indie game Minecraft.  They eat that game up, and it comes from being able to build and craft just about any kind of world they feel like.  Now imagine if those tools were available to players in a regular MMO.  So many people would be creating dungeons, castles, towns, cities, islands, and so on for all of us to use and peruse.  Add to it a more dynamic world of creatures and NPC's, and devs really don't even need to create normal content, just more tools.

Player-affected content is the future, we just need to wait for this generation to get bored of current games.

Originally posted by lifesbrink

I actually think that affecting the game world will have more impact on future MMO's...look at the community of the indie game Minecraft.  They eat that game up, and it comes from being able to build and craft just about any kind of world they feel like.  Now imagine if those tools were available to players in a regular MMO.  So many people would be creating dungeons, castles, towns, cities, islands, and so on for all of us to use and peruse.  Add to it a more dynamic world of creatures and NPC's, and devs really don't even need to create normal content, just more tools.

Player-affected content is the future, we just need to wait for this generation to get bored of current games.

 I would say the true future of gaming is like the true future of mmorpgs, will be a mixture of both static as well as changeable content. To me having thigns that are largely not affectable by players largely is not a bad idea as it gives the world and content a feel of stability, yet also having content in the game that the players can either create or affect to allow a feeling of chaos in the game as well. I would hate to have a world or game setting that is completely player created, as you can not expect the playerbase to always produce content of a certain quality, and not abuse the freedom of creating thier own content either. Player created/affected content is largely only important to those that actually want to affect or change the world of the game, where as those that want to merely live in the world experincing it as tthey play afffecting the world is largely secondary to many other things. Like in real life you have those people that are happy just living out their lives without much effort in changing the world about them, and then you have those people that are movers as well as shakers who affect or change the world about them. You also in the real world have static laws or things alongside of more changeable laws that are in flux allowing people to affect and change them. Both of these two factors of the world lend a feel of realism to the world around you, yet mind you these are only prsonal perceptions as well as beliefs that i have myself.

Of which is an excellent point. and more of what I was getting at.  I always think of it as a company releasing a world polished like World of Warcraft, but with tools to expand on said world.

Originally posted by lifesbrink

Of which is an excellent point. and more of what I was getting at.  I always think of it as a company releasing a world polished like World of Warcraft, but with tools to expand on said world.

 The thing is on what content of the game should the players be the ones to expand on it, which should the dev be the ones, and which should both have equal parts on expanding it. To me the main story arc as it were should be the domain of the devs that they expand on it thru thigns like content patches as well as expantions, where as to me more minor stories in the world should be the domain of the players to construct or change. Going along the lines of the wow examples i would place raid content as being one of those thigns that would fit as being dev domain as it is centeral to the actual expansion's story, where as the zone stories as well as events are more somethgin i would leave to the players to adjust or change.

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by Mordred1

I agree 100%. The beauty of a MMORPG should be that players make their own stories. Why do you need a scripted fake storyline when people are around interacting in the same world?

 No the beauty of an mmorpg should be your stories that happen against the backdrop of the world events, that give the feeling of an actual world that is more merely being filled with monsters. To me having these events/quests that are told thru quests in the areas you are playing in merely adds character to the world you are playing in, prior to quests being as prominent in mmos many times mmos seemed rather stale world wise. I mean outside of the forums where you could learn about events, or such coming into the game, places felt more like bland fields that were filled with alot of activities, but the amount of substance of what was happening or going on was lacking. Now you have games where entire zones have lore that is told about what as well as why things are happening in the area, and these facts are right at your fingertips without having to go into the time sink of looking them up on forums. Yet even in these new games with quests, lore, and such you are still able to make your own story, and tailor events to detail what happens to your character as you progress thru thee game. Also the world you are in will have more then just your story, the story of those in the world now, since the world has had many genrations that came before your characters, as such to me quests serve the fact of telling these tales as well. Role playing is not just about story, or about living your own story, about interacting with others, it is all of those thigns, and the fact you live thru a character in another world/era experincing that place via them. To say that rpgs should only be about your story, or the world's story, and that this is role playing is selling it very short.

  Examples?

Sorry but what you call world events I call scripted gameplay. And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe when you are referring to making your own story in today's games, you mean your experience with other people when questing and following the storyline. But still you are journeying through content tailored to you by someone else.

I once saw a discussion about SWTOR where someone said he felt very rewarded when a NPC acknowledged his feats of his personal story. I  think this is downright awkward when you are playing a game with real people. How this compare to be recognized as a good explorer, PVPer, crafter or else by real players? Following a story in a MMO just doesn't work like a single player game, it feels fake.

 MMOs should have backstory, not story IMHO.

Originally posted by Asuran24

 

 The thing is on what content of the game should the players be the ones to expand on it, which should the dev be the ones, and which should both have equal parts on expanding it. To me the main story arc as it were should be the domain of the devs that they expand on it thru thigns like content patches as well as expantions, where as to me more minor stories in the world should be the domain of the players to construct or change. Going along the lines of the wow examples i would place raid content as being one of those thigns that would fit as being dev domain as it is centeral to the actual expansion's story, where as the zone stories as well as events are more somethgin i would leave to the players to adjust or change.

Don't trust players. I used to play mods on several games. 99% of the player generated content is crap.

It is much better to play professional (i.e. developer) generated content.

Originally posted by nomatics856

it really was the back  burner to game play, I dont know what this facination about mmorpgs and story is about, but mmorpgs were good when gameplay was good, not story, I did not play EQ for the story, I did not play UO for the story, I played them for the gameplay, I played them for the exploration, to overcome mighty creatures that in todays mmorpgs I can gather up 4-5 of them and solo them easily with any class. In UO, UO HAD NO STORY, it really didnt, what made UO great was the player base

 

the gameplay, the wars, players made their own stories not the devs. This whole facination with story is ruining todays mmorpgs, less focus on story, less focus on sparkly shiny things, and more focus on gameplay.

Agree 100% AND I have do not recall ever playing with a gamer online who didnt say 'ok just spam clicking yes when you talk to the guy, get the quest and lets go!'

Originally posted by nomatics856

it really was the back  burner to game play, I dont know what this facination about mmorpgs and story is about, but mmorpgs were good when gameplay was good, not story, I did not play EQ for the story, I did not play UO for the story, I played them for the gameplay, I played them for the exploration, to overcome mighty creatures that in todays mmorpgs I can gather up 4-5 of them and solo them easily with any class. In UO, UO HAD NO STORY, it really didnt, what made UO great was the player base

 

the gameplay, the wars, players made their own stories not the devs. This whole facination with story is ruining todays mmorpgs, less focus on story, less focus on sparkly shiny things, and more focus on gameplay.

I agree.  A nice backdrop, setting was very nice for immersioin.  But the games used to let you and other players do so much.  Not only that, but players were more intertwined;  People needed each other more in older MMORPGs.  Grouping was a far more natural norm.  It wasn't blatantly forced, but groups, PUGs even, just "happened."  I also recall PUG groups lasting for hours and hours to adventure together.  Not the average groups these days that last, if you're lucky, 15 minutes and split up without even a "GL dude" before leaving.

I enjoyed the open mechanics, freedom, ways to affect a game world (for some titles), and of course, the great communities back then.

Originally posted by Mordred1

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by Mordred1

I agree 100%. The beauty of a MMORPG should be that players make their own stories. Why do you need a scripted fake storyline when people are around interacting in the same world?

 No the beauty of an mmorpg should be your stories that happen against the backdrop of the world events, that give the feeling of an actual world that is more merely being filled with monsters. To me having these events/quests that are told thru quests in the areas you are playing in merely adds character to the world you are playing in, prior to quests being as prominent in mmos many times mmos seemed rather stale world wise. I mean outside of the forums where you could learn about events, or such coming into the game, places felt more like bland fields that were filled with alot of activities, but the amount of substance of what was happening or going on was lacking. Now you have games where entire zones have lore that is told about what as well as why things are happening in the area, and these facts are right at your fingertips without having to go into the time sink of looking them up on forums. Yet even in these new games with quests, lore, and such you are still able to make your own story, and tailor events to detail what happens to your character as you progress thru thee game. Also the world you are in will have more then just your story, the story of those in the world now, since the world has had many genrations that came before your characters, as such to me quests serve the fact of telling these tales as well. Role playing is not just about story, or about living your own story, about interacting with others, it is all of those thigns, and the fact you live thru a character in another world/era experincing that place via them. To say that rpgs should only be about your story, or the world's story, and that this is role playing is selling it very short.

  Examples?

Sorry but what you call world events I call scripted gameplay. And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe when you are referring to making your own story in today's games, you mean your experience with other people when questing and following the storyline. But still you are journeying through content tailored to you by someone else.

I once saw a discussion about SWTOR where someone said he felt very rewarded when a NPC acknowledged his feats of his personal story. I  think this is downright awkward when you are playing a game with real people. How this compare to be recognized as a good explorer, PVPer, crafter or else by real players? Following a story in a MMO just doesn't work like a single player game, it feels fake.

 MMOs should have backstory, not story IMHO.

Not as much as just actually detailing what is happening to you via rping actually in the game, with ther players as you play the game using the story of  the game or zone as a backdrop. Like when i was in duskwood with my hunter back in bc  had a whole story going on about how i was chasing a friend/companion that had betrayed me, as i chased after him i would hear about the happenings in the world, aid zones thru quests, and even battle with this character in game as art of the role play we had. This is more like actually playing older rpg pnp games in that you are apart of a world that keep progressing around you, but you are playing out your own tale inside of it, and so i tailored the content in ways to aid in my story in the game via my role play. Another chase was when i was role playing as a fallen paladin (i used a warrior, but looked for paladin looking armor to use.) seeking to regain my grace in the eyes of my diety, and so i would travel around the world doing actions to redeem myself, yet over time I found that i was framed for what had happened to lose my grace thru sorcery, and so i sought after those that had wronged me as my grace slowly returned in my travels.When i had fully regained my grace in the rp story i had a leveled paladin same general look that i switched to at that point. The fact is that weither you are playing in content that is created by someone else or by yourself, it is how you use the content that matter, and so i choose to use the story/lore of the game to give a feeling of a living world around my character as i play.

Now why is it weird or awkard to feel rewarded in a game when a npc achnowledges your feats in the game, as to me that gives a feeling of your actions matter in the game. I see the players in the game as well as the npcs in the game as a part of the world, and so when either of them notes my feats i feel acomplished in the game, as i feel i actually had an effect on the world. What is the biggiest difference between a player, and a npc in game? It is the scipt they use in the game, but yet why should a player not feel anythign when these people in the game world acknowledge what they are doing. To many susspending this fact of them being scripted programs, and actually immersing themselves int the world seeing them as actual people they interact allows them to enjoy the game more. Many players can not acomplish this amount of suppended disblief, as well as immersion without getting rid of the npcs.

As i have said in this forum prior there are two types of players in games, one of these looks to just merely wishes to live as well as experince the world thru their character, while others seek to actually change or effect the world thru their character. What a player expects in games colors how they experince things in the game, and so those that expect to have somethign like a feel of a single player game in a mmo are sorely mistaken, yet for those that seek to experince the world as a mere character in that world do not want a single player experince in truth. These kinds of players want that feel of the real world where you see players about the world, events unfolding around you, and the world progressing as you keep moving forward as well.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by nomatics856

it really was the back  burner to game play, I dont know what this facination about mmorpgs and story is about, but mmorpgs were good when gameplay was good, not story, I did not play EQ for the story, I did not play UO for the story, I played them for the gameplay, I played them for the exploration, to overcome mighty creatures that in todays mmorpgs I can gather up 4-5 of them and solo them easily with any class. In UO, UO HAD NO STORY, it really didnt, what made UO great was the player base

 

the gameplay, the wars, players made their own stories not the devs. This whole facination with story is ruining todays mmorpgs, less focus on story, less focus on sparkly shiny things, and more focus on gameplay.

Agree 100% AND I have do not recall ever playing with a gamer online who didnt say 'ok just spam clicking yes when you talk to the guy, get the quest and lets go!'

Yet this is more to do with players desiring to progress to what is seen as being the fun part of the game IE end game, and so wasteing time on reading quests slows this progression to the fun part of the game. This can also be taken for getting to what a player sees as being fun, such as combat, grouping, or whatever else. I have ran with many players that wuld drop a group or just leave people to go alone if they tried to force them to skip quest text or events in games, and so these games are a melting pot of different gamers that all enjoy different things in games. There is a reason games have come to this state in tthis day as well as age is that players want it that way or atleast more of the playerbase, and so only to a group of players is t ruining or destroying modern mmos. To me the biggest issue with modern mmos is the end-game rush that is pretty common thru out the games, and so many other factors of the game are much worse then they should be. You spend so much less time in the bulk of the game, and so much in the last percent of the game that it has lead to content as well as other factors being less developed then other features.