As an example:  As the founder, guild leader, and sole member of Madi's Mercs, I can offer players all kinds of services for diamonds.  And it's perfectly legal!  Want help leveling?  You got it. Want to fill that pvp team?  Got you covered.  Want a bunch of people in your WvWvW in the wee hours of the morning?  As soon as I recruit some night owl pvpers, got that covered, too.  For a little extra, I'll even check the auction house on a regular basis for you in case that one item you really want shows up for a reasonable price.  If you have the diamonds, I have the service.

Now I'll never have to buy an expansion, fancy clothes, or convenience items like bank space and character slots with my money, because you'll be buying it for me.  All I have to do is make your life easier and better in game.

Or I could be the one to spend hundreds of real dollars for diamonds and run around playing Miss Rich Witch.

Now why are things like that frowned upon in MMOs?  Because the limberness of your wallet completely changes your gameplay experience.  This is going to have an impact on the game's economy and social structure.  Personally, it's not an impact I'm happy about.  Others feel differently.  Others will point out that the same people who will spend diamonds to have an easier road would have gone to gold farmers.  But at least before they were under threat of a ban for doing it.  Now?  It's all going to be legal.

In the end though, for all that this announcement has captured my imagination, it's still just a game.  Interesting, but not tears-worthy.

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by someforumguy

 

I just explained how it will affect my gameplay experience. The gold value will lower because gems will create an extra demand for gold creation. Also, gems will influence the price for rare loot.

It is weird how many fall for the rl economy comparison. But the main difference is that a MMO can create an endless supply of gold. It only needs enough incentive for players to keep creating gold. The gems create an extra incentive because they can be used for purchasing (vanity or not whatever) items exclusive to the store.

At the same time gems can be used to trade for rare loot too. This makes gold less in demand for rare loot because there is an alternative currency now.

But for purchasing gems directly for gold, it will create an extra demand for gold creating (farming mobs/events whatever).

The fact if I think I need or even like the store items is completely besides the point.

Sure, gold value will lower. Yay. Gold items from vendors will remain constnat, and from what we are being told loot will vary only in appearance, not so much in stats.

 

So I ask again, where is it impacting you? You can play the same as you did before. You can be jsut as good or bad in pve, pvp, etc as you were before. If this works the way Anet is promising, nothing that other plays earn via gems will impact YOUR enjoyment of the game. Gold doesn't seem like it's going to be worth much except a few specific items, and those items will come from NPC vendors. I willl say I think the in--game auction house may end up suffering a bit, so people that play MMOs for the economy and the numbers game may suffer. If you are one of those I apologize, because yes, then you are impacted. But if not, I still don't see the difference. The "Rare loot" will come from Karma from what we're being told, which cannot be bought.

For me the economy yes. And the many goldsinks. How can they for example determine if they are going overboard with the goldsinks if all those goldbuyers (through gems) keep stating that its fine, because those goldsinks are barely making a dent in their goldhoards?

While players who are actually playing the game keep going out of their way to avoid as many goldsinks as possible so they can also do a trade once in a while on AH? It creates a skewed situation.

For me it is just the principle of creating a seperation between haves and havenots with the RMT system. Real cash should not be part of the ingame economy imo.Then I also think it defeats the purpose of any game. Obtaining ingame gold through gameplay takes (hopefully a fun) time. Selling gems for gold is taking avoid having to spend time playing the game. So what are we talking about exactly? Ppl paying to not play the game. Ppl avoiding having to spend time in a game that is designed to get rid of as many grind as possible according to Anets design philosophy? With what goal in mind?

Another influence is the price difference between EU and US. For some friends of mine from eastern Europe the game is already costly (I dont understand why some ppl think that every country in europe has high minimum wages) due to higher price they have to pay for the game. Will that be the same for the store too, to create an even large difference?

So there are several reasons why I'm against selling ingame gold no matter who facilitates it.

Originally posted by someforumguy

For me it is just the principle of creating a seperation between haves and havenots with the RMT system. Real

The key is not letting that dictate the in-game experience. It doesn't matter if you "have" if it doesn't determine your effectiveness in-game. There's nothing to envy, or separate you in capability.

Originally posted by Khetnen

Originally posted by slicknslim88

Originally posted by RizelStar

http://www.thetyrianorder.com/home/m/2850070/article/638922

Nuff said

This is total and complete win.

Make this a thread, and possibly a sticky.

agreed

Already made that thread. People just need to keep it alive.

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by someforumguy

I just explained how it will affect my gameplay experience. The gold value will lower because gems will create an extra demand for gold creation. Also, gems will influence the price for rare loot.

It is weird how many fall for the rl economy comparison. But the main difference is that a MMO can create an endless supply of gold. It only needs enough incentive for players to keep creating gold. The gems create an extra incentive because they can be used for purchasing (vanity or not whatever) items exclusive to the store.

At the same time gems can be used to trade for rare loot too. This makes gold less in demand for rare loot because there is an alternative currency now.

But for purchasing gems directly for gold, it will create an extra demand for gold creating (farming mobs/events whatever).

The fact if I think I need or even like the store items is completely besides the point.

Usually, if there is an extra demand for something, the value of that something increases.  As such, I would be inclined to point out that your conclusion that this heightened demand for gold creation most certainly does not lower the value of gold--which it doesn't, though not because the incorrect increased demand = lower value logic.  Rather, because no gold is being generated through these transactions whatsoever.  If 1,000 gold is being traded from one player to another for gems (which, presumably, will be consumed), the game's gold economy remains unchanged.  It's as if one player walks up to another and gives him 1,000 gold in any other MMO.  Everything that first player could have done with that 1,000 gold can now be done by the second player.  

Originally posted by Kaboobie

http://www.eternalalchemy.com/2012/03/20/economic-ramifications-of-gems/

 

My thoughts ont he Potential ramifications of gems in Guild Wars 2

Much seems to hinge on the game having gold sinks that will tend to deprive non-gem buyers of their gold so rapidly that they won't have much leftover to purchase gems with.  I question this outright.  It would be in ArenaNet's best interest not to do that so that players will have ample opportunity to use their excess gold to buy those gems to make RMT purchases.  In fact, the cash shop would become a major gold sink for the game. 

So really, we need to see how existing gold sinks will function and how much of a toll they will take on players who never buy gems with real money.  I suspect that, like the prices to use asuran gates, the fees will be pretty nominal to ensure that people are able to save their gold to buy gems.  They want players using gems because to means RMT sales, even if those gems are purchased with gold before coming back to the shop.  Someone bought them initially and they still ended up as a cash shop sale. 

I'm more concerned that the gold sinks are going to be far too trivial and not pull enough of it out of the economy to keep its value up.  But remember, even if gold is heavily devalued in relation to gems, players are still not going to go to a gold seller when they need more.  Why risk their credit card in a shady transaction with an unknown party when they can just buy gems right from ArenaNet and sell them to other players at that heavily inflated price?  It still looks gold seller immune to me.

Balancing all that is going to be interesting though, no doubt.

Bah, what a mess though.

This sounds like many systems used in at least a half dozen games out there.  Perfect World games etc.

The big thing here is how quickly these ideas of what's worth what will very quickly dissolve after the game has been out for even just a short amount of time.

In the end the only thing that will be worth anything, is "gems" because at level 80 all characters are supposed to be "equal".  Nobody will need gold to buy any gear etc. so that leaves only consumables.  So if consumables don't do a whole lot, nobody will need them or the gold needed to buy them.  If consumables are in such high demand that people will sell gems to obtain them, then indeed things are not so "equal" if you have the cash.

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by someforumguy

Gems devalue gold by default from the moment that the cash shop sells items that are not obtainable from gameplay. The flaw is that you NEED gems to purchase from the cash shop. You can't buy with ingame gold directly. This demand for gems causes extra gold farming by players.

This is not my main issue with this RMT though. I dont care about price inflation in MMO's. I dont see a solution for that if a game just poops out gold anytime you kill a mob :p

My issue with RMT is about the gaming philosophy. The amount of gold you have is comparable to an experience bar as a measure of progress. You need a certain amount to purchase services/items for your class. It is a vital part of the gamemechanics and one (part) of your goals. You always need to acquire a minimal amount in this game during character progress.  Skipping that by being able to purchase it with rl money defeats the point of a game imo.

EDIT : Oh and depending on gem prices, it might not get rid of goldsellers either. If they can manage a profit by undercutting Anet's store.

 

Since this keeps getting overlooked, or misunderstood, I will underline it: exactly zero gold is generated and infused into the game economy when a gem > gold echange is made.  You can only trade gems for gold with other players.  If you try to do this at the game's onset, you will only be able to get a few silver for several dollars worth of gems because that is all players will have (that is, assuming Anet doesn't implement a fixed exchange rate, in which case nobody will even be capable of making a gem > gold exchange until a player acquires enough gold to meet the fixed exchange parameters.  Though the fact that this exchange was described as "player-driven" would seem to indicate that players set the price, and a natural exchange rate would develop and fluctuate accordingly.)  

Gold is still exclusively generated through traditional means.  Gems are exclusively generated through purchase with real world money.  The supplies of these two currencies will fluctuate independently of each other, and no exchanges of these currencies will alter the supply of either at all.  Other factors that will contribute to the exchange rate are 1) players' demand for gold and 2) their willingness/unwillingness to earn it in game, and 3) players' demand for gems and 4) their willingness/unwillingness to spend real life money on them.  

Stop comparing it with rl economy. You have to think outside the box when talking about economy in a game where the amount of gold that is created is depending on incentives and not a limited supply.

Just the simple fact of the demand for gems (especially if the shop offers exclusive items), will create an extra incentive to create gold through what you call traditional means. The fixed npc prices won't reflect this, so the playertraded items will reflect it and show faster gold inflation compared to having no gems to buy store items with.

Of course the demand for gems or how easy it is to farm gold will eventually determine gold/gem exchange ratio. But it doesn't get completely rid of the initial extra incentive to create more gold. Because the gems represent a new market.

So the introduction of these gems will create extra demand for gold creation.

You keep acting as if the amount of gold being created isnt affected by the existing of gems. But it is. It created an additional incentive for gold creating. It is an extra service/product in addition to the ingame npc services.

It also affects the gold value for rare loot because rare loot can be traded directly for gems.

 What items are offered exclusively from the store and the demand for these will determine how high the influence of gems on gold value is.

Originally posted by Unlight

..  In fact, the cash shop would become a major gold sink for the game. 

...

This is a misconception that is still floating around.  There is no conversion of gold to gems in the online store.  Gems are only created with real world cash.  There will be a market driven conversion of gold to gems on the Trading Post.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

One thing we still do not know is if there will be big ticket optional gold sinks similar to the travel speed upgrades in WoW, or whether ALL optional goodies will ONLY be available through the online store for gems.

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by someforumguy

I just explained how it will affect my gameplay experience. The gold value will lower because gems will create an extra demand for gold creation. Also, gems will influence the price for rare loot.

It is weird how many fall for the rl economy comparison. But the main difference is that a MMO can create an endless supply of gold. It only needs enough incentive for players to keep creating gold. The gems create an extra incentive because they can be used for purchasing (vanity or not whatever) items exclusive to the store.

At the same time gems can be used to trade for rare loot too. This makes gold less in demand for rare loot because there is an alternative currency now.

But for purchasing gems directly for gold, it will create an extra demand for gold creating (farming mobs/events whatever).

The fact if I think I need or even like the store items is completely besides the point.

Usually, if there is an extra demand for something, the value of that something increases.  As such, I would be inclined to point out that your conclusion that this heightened demand for gold creation most certainly does not lower the value of gold--which it doesn't, though not because the incorrect increased demand = lower value logic.  Rather, because no gold is being generated through these transactions whatsoever.  If 1,000 gold is being traded from one player to another for gems (which, presumably, will be consumed), the game's gold economy remains unchanged.  It's as if one player walks up to another and gives him 1,000 gold in any other MMO.  Everything that first player could have done with that 1,000 gold can now be done by the second player.  

Demand for gold creation is not the same as saying a higher demand for gold. It means you need more gold to buy the same item. So it creates an incentive to create more gold.

The speed of gold creation is influenced by the demand for those gems. So the more in demand possible exlusive store items are, the more gold gets created by players who want to buy gems. How much and how fast is determined by gem supply. This however is always more then when no gems would exist.

SOME OBSERVATIONS!!!!

OBSERVATION 1: 

The Cash shop is explicitly not going to give anyone an edge in game play, according to the post by Mike O'Brien.   Any items that you can get with the cash shop are only cosmetic, as it were, and will not let you "pay to win".

Gems *could* be sold for gold in game, though, which leads me to:

  OBSERVATON 2: 

The cost in gold would have to be more attractive than paying a few dollars to ANET.  IE, the player selling GEMS will always have a hard line of competition from ANET.  This will hold their prices within reason, because otherwise players will just pay a few dollars to ANET for a gem.  A player is not likely to farm for 5 hours to buy with Gold what would cost them $1 USD. 

Aside from this:

OBSERVATION 3:

The items being sold in the cash shop may or may not be appealing to players.  How many players are actually interested in them (Not me, at all... please keep your angel wings, etc) will also affect the amount of gold that GEMS can actually be sold for.  Few players caring about a special gear re-coloring, etc. leads to the curbing of the market.

*******************************************************************************************************

All in all, I see at least 2 layers of checks and balances to hold this system from getting too outrageous.

The 2 big mysterys are still:

1.  WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING TO BE IN THE CASH SHOP??? 

2.WHAT EXACTLY *COULD* YOU BUY IN GAME FOR GOLD THAT WOULD GIVE YOU AN EDGE?

Until we know the answer to that, it is really pointless to speculate about it all.  At this point I trust ANET when they say the cash shop is vanity stuff that wont give an edge.  I believe that at this point.  I see it no different than WOW allowing people to pay extra money to buy some fansy, rediculous mount that I have no desire to get.  But that's just me.  Each to their own.

Originally posted by Ikeda

This has worked in Eve VERY well.  And since it's player driven if EVERYONE buys gems to sell, you can CHEAPLY buy the gems for gold.  The converse is true as well.  It's EXACTLY how money traders do it in the real world.

I like it.  And it will make me very very rich soon enough.

I have to disagree with you. Inflation in EVE has always been a problem. T2 copy system was implemented to deflate the vaule of isk. Because at that time mostly large corps owned original T2 blueprint. Not only did large corps controlled the T2 market at that time. They also controlled the mats needed to make those ships. If I am not mistaken only small corps or individual players were selling Plex at that time. After T2 copy system was implemented large corps took control of the plex market and inflated the plex market. The Plex system  is a poor example for a cash shop.

Originally posted by Thupli

SOME OBSERVATIONS!!!!

OBSERVATION 1: 

The Cash shop is explicitly not going to give anyone an edge in game play, according to the post by Mike O'Brien.   Any items that you can get with the cash shop are only cosmetic, as it were, and will not let you "pay to win".

 

 

Gems *could* be sold for gold in game, though, which leads me to:

 

  OBSERVATON 2: 

The cost in gold would have to be more attractive than paying a few dollars to ANET.  IE, the player selling GEMS will always have a hard line of competition from ANET.  This will hold their prices within reason, because otherwise players will just pay a few dollars to ANET for a gem.  A player is not likely to farm for 5 hours to buy with Gold what would cost them $1 USD. 

 

Aside from this:

 

OBSERVATION 3:

The items being sold in the cash shop may or may not be appealing to players.  How many players are actually interested in them (Not me, at all... please keep your angel wings, etc) will also affect the amount of gold that GEMS can actually be sold for.  Few players caring about a special gear re-coloring, etc. leads to the curbing of the market.

*******************************************************************************************************

All in all, I see at least 2 layers of checks and balances to hold this system from getting too outrageous.

 

The 2 big mysterys are still:

 

1.  WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING TO BE IN THE CASH SHOP??? 

2.WHAT EXACTLY *COULD* YOU BUY IN GAME FOR GOLD THAT WOULD GIVE YOU AN EDGE?

Until we know the answer to that, it is really pointless to speculate about it all.  At this point I trust ANET when they say the cash shop is vanity stuff that wont give an edge.  I believe that at this point.  I see it no different than WOW allowing people to pay extra money to buy some fansy, rediculous mount that I have no desire to get.  But that's just me.  Each to their own.

 

 

 

 

  

Agreed on all points.

Observation 4:

WHY DOES EVERYONE ASSUME YOU NEED TO BUY ANYTHING FROM THE SHOP? YOU DON'T!

It's been clearly stated nobody gets an advantage from store items. I couldn't give a shit how much a gem costs, as I have no intention of buying anything from the store anyway. I will be wearing gear earned from PvP or Karma so nobody will have better gear than me regardless of where it comes from. Their's may look different, but stat wise it won't be any better.

Seeing as there is no advantage given by anything bought in the store I think all these threads about micro trasactions and economies crumbling are pointless.

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
 

Seeing as there is no advantage given by anything bought in the store I think all these threads about micro trasactions and economies crumbling are pointless.

Even though these are virtual economies - they are impacted (and also impact the player) in how they are maintained.

If it was pointless, then why would ArenaNet even bother implementing the sytem? Obviously, they (ArenaNet) think that the Transaction Shop will:

1.) Provide an additional source of income for ArenaNet and the further production of Guild Wars 2 content;

2.) Be an incentive for players to buy cosmetically different goods and limited, fungible in-game items and;

3.) Limit gold-farming and Real Life Trading of gold

I started this thread to discover everyone's thoughts on the pros and cons of the entire microtransaction system. So far, there have been a lot of interesting points. I hope some of the Devs are reading these threads. One of the benefits of these forums is that there are a vast number of players who have experienced different economies. One person cannot play every single game - so this is a great well of information. 

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

Originally posted by Thupli

SOME OBSERVATIONS!!!!

OBSERVATION 1: 

The Cash shop is explicitly not going to give anyone an edge in game play, according to the post by Mike O'Brien.   Any items that you can get with the cash shop are only cosmetic, as it were, and will not let you "pay to win".

 

 

Gems *could* be sold for gold in game, though, which leads me to:

 

  OBSERVATON 2: 

The cost in gold would have to be more attractive than paying a few dollars to ANET.  IE, the player selling GEMS will always have a hard line of competition from ANET.  This will hold their prices within reason, because otherwise players will just pay a few dollars to ANET for a gem.  A player is not likely to farm for 5 hours to buy with Gold what would cost them $1 USD. 

 

Aside from this:

 

OBSERVATION 3:

The items being sold in the cash shop may or may not be appealing to players.  How many players are actually interested in them (Not me, at all... please keep your angel wings, etc) will also affect the amount of gold that GEMS can actually be sold for.  Few players caring about a special gear re-coloring, etc. leads to the curbing of the market.

*******************************************************************************************************

All in all, I see at least 2 layers of checks and balances to hold this system from getting too outrageous.

 

The 2 big mysterys are still:

 

1.  WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING TO BE IN THE CASH SHOP??? 

2.WHAT EXACTLY *COULD* YOU BUY IN GAME FOR GOLD THAT WOULD GIVE YOU AN EDGE?

Until we know the answer to that, it is really pointless to speculate about it all.  At this point I trust ANET when they say the cash shop is vanity stuff that wont give an edge.  I believe that at this point.  I see it no different than WOW allowing people to pay extra money to buy some fansy, rediculous mount that I have no desire to get.  But that's just me.  Each to their own.

 

 

 

 

  

Agreed on all points.

 

Observation 4:

WHY DOES EVERYONE ASSUME YOU NEED TO BUY ANYTHING FROM THE SHOP? YOU DON'T!

 

It's been clearly stated nobody gets an advantage from store items. I couldn't give a shit how much a gem costs, as I have no intention of buying anything from the store anyway. I will be wearing gear earned from PvP or Karma so nobody will have better gear than me regardless of where it comes from. Their's may look different, but stat wise it won't be any better.

 

Seeing as there is no advantage given by anything bought in the store I think all these threads about micro trasactions and economies crumbling are pointless.

If they put any kind of 'content' in the cash shop its gonna drive up demand pretty quick, 

But there is also a flip side to the 'you cannot buy anything good with gold' arguement I keep hearing and that means crafting is pretty much either gonna be bop or crap. See in order for me to not be able to buy anything good with gold, that means a seller cannot make anything good. Which is its own issue alone.  Are we all going to focus on cooking because all the rest have no impact on gameplay? There is not much room for a 'player driven market' when it comes to craftables if none of it is worth anything.

You guys need to realize that tradable gems mean... Gems = gold. Gems = items. Gems = crafting mats. Gems = Other players don't roll for your soulbound items. Gems = run through difficult content. Gems = any service imaginable.

This is assuming gold has VALUE in GW2.

Player 1 guys gems, does not play game.

Player 2 players game, spends gold on services, items, skills.

Player 3 trades gold to player 1 for gems.

Player 1 == Player 2 in terms of progress.

Player 1's time != Player 2's time.

If I buy gems, I have more buying power than you do in-game. This gives me an ADVANTAGE. This isn't hard to grasp.

Let's assume gold isn't worthwhile in GW2, much like D2's gold. Then Gems will be the new SOJ's in the trading world, except I can't find my SOJ's to trade with in GW2, I must buy them with cash.

Also don't forget... ANet is hoping to make money from gems. The cash shop will be valuable. Did you notice how they talk about items that "save time." ANet isn't going to implement a cash shop that players look at and say, "Meh, I don't care about any of that stuff."

Originally posted by evicton

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

Originally posted by Thupli

SOME OBSERVATIONS!!!!

OBSERVATION 1: 

The Cash shop is explicitly not going to give anyone an edge in game play, according to the post by Mike O'Brien.   Any items that you can get with the cash shop are only cosmetic, as it were, and will not let you "pay to win".

 

 

Gems *could* be sold for gold in game, though, which leads me to:

 

  OBSERVATON 2: 

The cost in gold would have to be more attractive than paying a few dollars to ANET.  IE, the player selling GEMS will always have a hard line of competition from ANET.  This will hold their prices within reason, because otherwise players will just pay a few dollars to ANET for a gem.  A player is not likely to farm for 5 hours to buy with Gold what would cost them $1 USD. 

 

Aside from this:

 

OBSERVATION 3:

The items being sold in the cash shop may or may not be appealing to players.  How many players are actually interested in them (Not me, at all... please keep your angel wings, etc) will also affect the amount of gold that GEMS can actually be sold for.  Few players caring about a special gear re-coloring, etc. leads to the curbing of the market.

*******************************************************************************************************

All in all, I see at least 2 layers of checks and balances to hold this system from getting too outrageous.

 

The 2 big mysterys are still:

 

1.  WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING TO BE IN THE CASH SHOP??? 

2.WHAT EXACTLY *COULD* YOU BUY IN GAME FOR GOLD THAT WOULD GIVE YOU AN EDGE?

Until we know the answer to that, it is really pointless to speculate about it all.  At this point I trust ANET when they say the cash shop is vanity stuff that wont give an edge.  I believe that at this point.  I see it no different than WOW allowing people to pay extra money to buy some fansy, rediculous mount that I have no desire to get.  But that's just me.  Each to their own.

 

 

 

 

  

Agreed on all points.

 

Observation 4:

WHY DOES EVERYONE ASSUME YOU NEED TO BUY ANYTHING FROM THE SHOP? YOU DON'T!

 

It's been clearly stated nobody gets an advantage from store items. I couldn't give a shit how much a gem costs, as I have no intention of buying anything from the store anyway. I will be wearing gear earned from PvP or Karma so nobody will have better gear than me regardless of where it comes from. Their's may look different, but stat wise it won't be any better.

 

Seeing as there is no advantage given by anything bought in the store I think all these threads about micro trasactions and economies crumbling are pointless.

If they put any kind of 'content' in the cash shop its gonna drive up demand pretty quick, 

But there is also a flip side to the 'you cannot buy anything good with gold' arguement I keep hearing and that means crafting is pretty much either gonna be bop or crap. See in order for me to not be able to buy anything good with gold, that means a seller cannot make anything good. Which is its own issue alone.  Are we all going to focus on cooking because all the rest have no impact on gameplay? There is not much room for a 'player driven market' when it comes to craftables if none of it is worth anything.

That's what I keep hearing too.  You get to 80 and the gear grind "ends" and the "competition" begins or whatever.  That seems to be the big drawing point that a lot of people talk about on these forums.  Everybody will be equal, it's all based on skill etc. etc.  It also means there's almost no use for an economy or gold at 80 unless it's all vanity stuff that everybody wants to get all hot and bothered about.

Originally posted by evicton

But there is also a flip side to the 'you cannot buy anything good with gold' arguement I keep hearing and that means crafting is pretty much either gonna be bop or crap.

That's because the people making that arguement have no clue what they are talking about.

Quote from the Guild Wars 2 wiki

"The items obtainable through crafting will have unique appearances but the statistics on the items are no better or worse than items attained through other ways of playing the game. "

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by someforumguy

Gems devalue gold by default from the moment that the cash shop sells items that are not obtainable from gameplay. The flaw is that you NEED gems to purchase from the cash shop. You can't buy with ingame gold directly. This demand for gems causes extra gold farming by players.

This is not my main issue with this RMT though. I dont care about price inflation in MMO's. I dont see a solution for that if a game just poops out gold anytime you kill a mob :p

My issue with RMT is about the gaming philosophy. The amount of gold you have is comparable to an experience bar as a measure of progress. You need a certain amount to purchase services/items for your class. It is a vital part of the gamemechanics and one (part) of your goals. You always need to acquire a minimal amount in this game during character progress.  Skipping that by being able to purchase it with rl money defeats the point of a game imo.

EDIT : Oh and depending on gem prices, it might not get rid of goldsellers either. If they can manage a profit by undercutting Anet's store.

 

Since this keeps getting overlooked, or misunderstood, I will underline it: exactly zero gold is generated and infused into the game economy when a gem > gold echange is made.  You can only trade gems for gold with other players.  If you try to do this at the game's onset, you will only be able to get a few silver for several dollars worth of gems because that is all players will have (that is, assuming Anet doesn't implement a fixed exchange rate, in which case nobody will even be capable of making a gem > gold exchange until a player acquires enough gold to meet the fixed exchange parameters.  Though the fact that this exchange was described as "player-driven" would seem to indicate that players set the price, and a natural exchange rate would develop and fluctuate accordingly.)  

Gold is still exclusively generated through traditional means.  Gems are exclusively generated through purchase with real world money.  The supplies of these two currencies will fluctuate independently of each other, and no exchanges of these currencies will alter the supply of either at all.  Other factors that will contribute to the exchange rate are 1) players' demand for gold and 2) their willingness/unwillingness to earn it in game, and 3) players' demand for gems and 4) their willingness/unwillingness to spend real life money on them.  

Stop comparing it with rl economy. You have to think outside the box when talking about economy in a game where the amount of gold that is created is depending on incentives and not a limited supply.

Just the simple fact of the demand for gems (especially if the shop offers exclusive items), will create an extra incentive to create gold through what you call traditional means. The fixed npc prices won't reflect this, so the playertraded items will reflect it and show faster gold inflation compared to having no gems to buy store items with.

Of course the demand for gems or how easy it is to farm gold will eventually determine gold/gem exchange ratio. But it doesn't get completely rid of the initial extra incentive to create more gold. Because the gems represent a new market.

So the introduction of these gems will create extra demand for gold creation.

You keep acting as if the amount of gold being created isnt affected by the existing of gems. But it is. It created an additional incentive for gold creating. It is an extra service/product in addition to the ingame npc services.

It also affects the gold value for rare loot because rare loot can be traded directly for gems.

 What items are offered exclusively from the store and the demand for these will determine how high the influence of gems on gold value is.

Now the issue that arises is that we must make conclusions based only on vague knowledge of several factors, such as how gold will be accumulated in game, what in game uses that gold will have, and exactly what items will be available in the cash shop for purchase via gems.  I happily concur with your last point, which was that much of this argument is contingent upon these unknowns.  And really, no absolute claims should be made one way or the other until the unknowns are made known. 

However, I wish to present my reasons for suspecting that the introduction of gems will only minimally impact the desire for certain players to increase their farming habits, which would thereby result in a slight infusion of gold into the economy and a fractionally larger global gold pool, which would in turn marginally decrease the value of all gold assets held by players not participating in this accelerated gold farming trend.  They are the following:

1. The ability to exchange gold for gems essentially just makes cash shop items a part of the in-game economy, nearly the same as if they were items available from in-game vendors.  You can calculate exactly how much gold they cost.  If players want these items and are unwilling to pay real money for gems, they will save up their gold just as they would in any other MMO.  The desire to grind gold for these items would be the same.  

2. HOWEVER, there are also uses for gold that are exclusive to gold (that is, gems can't get you this stuff, and this stuff or similar stuff is not found in the cash shop--if similar stuff is found in the cash shop, well then that defeats the purpose of using a gold > gem exchange, pertaining to those particular items.  Gold and gems become two means to the same end, no exchange necessary.)  The uses for gold in GW2 is one of those yet unknown variables, but we can suspect they will be many, as in all MMOs, and you will never quite be able to get enough gold to fulfill all your wants.  These same players who are unwilling to spend real money on gems will not view their gold as expendable.  They will see a variety of economic goals they wish to pursue, and will want to use their gold for many in game uses in addition to cash shop purchases.  The usefulness and necessity of gold in-game will actually detract (but not totally prevent--that would be bad) players from giving their gold away for gems for vanity cash shop items.

I stress again the fact that we only have a vague understanding of gold's usefulness and exactly what items are in the cash shop.  

3.  Finally, even though we do not know the exact details of how gold will be most efficiently obtained, we can assume it will largely be a function of time spent playing the game.  Is time not the underlying issue?  Gold is for players who have time to put into the game.  Gems are for players who do not and who do have real money to spend on the game.  This system is meant as an equalizer for those broad, overused demographics commonly labeled as "casual" and "hardcore" players.  

So you argue that gems will incentivise some players to directly put more time into the game, thereby earning more gold and inflating the economy.  Is this not directly offset by these players' counterparts: the ones who will no longer be incentivised to put more time into the game than they had wanted, to earn the gold required to compete in the market?  Every gold > gem exchange is an exchange of time.  For every player who may be inclined to grind a little harder for some extra gold, there is exactly one player who is grinding a proportional amount less, as dictated by the economy and exchange rate.