Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Thorbrand

I agree with the OP on most of what he says. MMORPGs use to be indepth gameplay designed for a mature audience.

Only thing is now MMORPGs are about one thing making businesses fast money. They game doesn't matter only the revenue it generates so MMORPGs are no long the games they once where so mass people can play and feel that they are gamers.

Those of us that are truly the gamers who look for more out of games are left in the dark with nothing to play.

Games with continue to de-evolve until we are back to just playing Dragon's Lair remakes that everyone will think are epic.

"Truly the gamers"? How arrogent.

What makes your $60 for a game more special than someone else's?

I agree, anyone can be a gamer, you just have to enjoy games. What he should have said was Hardcore gamers who dont always PVP.

I consider myself a hardcore social/exploration gamer, In WoW i spent most of my time just talking to people, but eventually it just wasnt enough. I enjoy the dungeon crawling and adventuring aspect more than anything.

To me, the history of computer gaming of text adventures, crpgs, muds and mmorpgs was all driven by the early devs by the desire to play a computer version of dnd.

I don't see why you can't have both good story and good gameplay.  I like to feel like what I'm doing in a game has some meaning in the context of story, but I also like to simply have fun playing too.

Sorry, double post by accident here...

I'm a really big fan of good dev story.

Bad dev story can be laughed at, but not unbearable if the gameplay is good enough.

Shouldn't the thread title be "UO wasn't about story, so the new MMOs shouldn't be either"?

Interestingly enough, I just read through the newest Game Informer Magazine and found an article about DICE (or GDC, I can't recall). It was basically a collection of things overheard at the conference. One of the first ones listed was from the creator of Twisted Metal. The dude basically ranted that video games were the worst possible place to tell a story and that no one should really be attempting it.

So, in other words, he is incapable of telling a story in a video game, so no one else should either. I'll do my best to avoid any and all of his future work based solely on this one statement.

I was always a fan of a good backstory, DAOC had a great one especially in Albion and Hibernia.

The few quests there were helped firmly root you in the lore and background of the realm you were adventuring in.

EQ2 doesn't do a bad job either, one of the better ones IMO along with LOTRO.

I don't care about premade storytelling. I do care about a universe like the SW universe for example that  provides both backdrop and framework for players to create their own stories.

Lets face it th is whole thread is more anit tor retoric, Wow always had a good back story if u bothred to read the quest text, Alot of games had story in them , they were just text based so most people didnt even read it.

I get a bit tired of this whole old mmo's were better then new mmo crowd. Yes wow was my first mmo but ive tried alot of diffrent ones. 

to me tor's story is amazing and a huge reason i like the gaem so much, The fact is the story makes up for any flaws as far as im concerned that and the fact it is star wars.

A good story in an mmo is nto a bad thing, I just wish end game wasnt all raid heroics pvp , They need to find some new things to do at end game besides dailies, raids and heroic dungeons. 

That said the fun of leveling is the story, Combat is ok , its not like any mmorpg has the best combat ever made in a game, Combat in most mmo's is passable but ill admit i perfer the pace of mmo combat to fps games. 

That said i dont understand all the angst against good story, after all we play mmo rpgs' not mmo fps or mmo fighter gamers

An rpg should have a story, its part of the whole role playing part of the game. 

Originally posted by nomatics856

it really was the back  burner to game play, I dont know what this facination about mmorpgs and story is about, but mmorpgs were good when gameplay was good, not story, I did not play EQ for the story, I did not play UO for the story, I played them for the gameplay, I played them for the exploration, to overcome mighty creatures that in todays mmorpgs I can gather up 4-5 of them and solo them easily with any class. In UO, UO HAD NO STORY, it really didnt, what made UO great was the player base

 

the gameplay, the wars, players made their own stories not the devs. This whole facination with story is ruining todays mmorpgs, less focus on story, less focus on sparkly shiny things, and more focus on gameplay.

opinion, no data presented to back opinion.  Typical MMORPG thread. LOL. My Opinion.

Originally posted by kalinis

Lets face it th is whole thread is more anit tor retoric, Wow always had a good back story if u bothred to read the quest text, Alot of games had story in them , they were just text based so most people didnt even read it.

I get a bit tired of this whole old mmo's were better then new mmo crowd. Yes wow was my first mmo but ive tried alot of diffrent ones. 

to me tor's story is amazing and a huge reason i like the gaem so much, The fact is the story makes up for any flaws as far as im concerned that and the fact it is star wars.

A good story in an mmo is nto a bad thing, I just wish end game wasnt all raid heroics pvp , They need to find some new things to do at end game besides dailies, raids and heroic dungeons. 

That said the fun of leveling is the story, Combat is ok , its not like any mmorpg has the best combat ever made in a game, Combat in most mmo's is passable but ill admit i perfer the pace of mmo combat to fps games. 

That said i dont understand all the angst against good story, after all we play mmo rpgs' not mmo fps or mmo fighter gamers

An rpg should have a story, its part of the whole role playing part of the game. 

I would imagine it's because the story comes at the expense of everything else that makes an mmorpg.

@ OP

really isnt this the truth about most  old games, atleast how Id remember it you would get a short basic story at the start of the game, and usually one when you had completed the game - even sometimes all you had were a GAME OVER and then credits.

actually had this comment toward a guy I work with who said he think of games as an interactive movie and that is what is fun about a game, did get abit annoyed by that comment, since hardly any of my old favorite games from my youth had much of a story at all, so no acting within a movie is never what were the point of games to me...but is to my friend there.

not to say Im all against story telling, but often find it more of a negative than a plus, since one of my favorite kind of game is sim´s....settlers, civilization, ceasar or most of the tycoon games, now if I go try play a new version of these in most cases you get forced into a story gameplay with certain goals, once completed those goals you get a new bit of story and get asked to start all over again...just with more things unlocked, because ofc you cant handle to learn everything in one go, you have to learn by babysteps....

either way as I recall it max payne is the first game I personally played that had much focus on story telling, am sure though someone can come up with an earlier game making me think...oh yea right...played that one too ;P

In older MMOs the storyline was upto the community.  Those who love storylines, like myself, made up our own.  There was always a general backstory to every MMO, and the community came up with the rest.  Today's MMOs the devs go further in having an actual storyline you have to follow.  I've always been one to Roleplay and the roleplaying community in MMOs has gone down I think (in most games, exception to lotro).  If there's one thing that's always drawn me to a game it's the story.  Think if the original Zelda didn't have a story.  There'd be nothing to do.  Just like MMOs, if there's no story, there's nothing to do.  MMOs have always had at least a little backstory.  The only difference is the old MMOs didn't really force any storyline while playing.  New MMOs have storylines you have to follow.  This is the only thing that I don't like (except lotro).  The difference I find between lotro and other modern MMOs is the storyline is actually like a book, I mean it's even split up into volumes, books, and chapters lol.  Other games don't really do this, they just send you through a bunch of quests that really don't change anything or in most cases don't tell that much of a finite story.

Interesting thread.  Thinking back to the best stories within games I've ever played, none of them have been an MMO, granted I haven't played over 5-6 MMOs. 

The best story that kept me engaged was Starcraft 1.  Warcraft 3, pre-expansion also was really engaging. 

Earthbound and Shining Force II - also great stories that were immersive and engaging.

It's hard to comment on the SWTOR story telling, as I only got up level 48 on a Sentinel.. yet that wasn't half as good as the four titles mentioned above.  I remember one cool part of the story, about Kira, where it was on some ship, it was dark and a Sith arrived with a purple lightsaber. 

To me, this is a perfect example of setting up a story.  Then you create your party and venture forth in a world where there treasure to discover, and epic battles to be had.  It wasn't an MMO, yet it was an RPG.

Sometimes simplicity really works.

Originally posted by fivoroth

EQ is the most overrated game of all time. EQ is nothing but a themepark. 

Camping spot 1 > grind tons of mobs > ding > ding > move to camping spot 2 > rinse and repeat. Throw in some dungeons and raids and you've got a full-fledged themepark MMO. 

UO on the other side was unique. There is no second MMO like it. I always wondered why there's no UO-like MMOs. Is it because WoW decided to go the EQ route and when WoW was the most successful MMO of all time, everybody decided to foloow that formula.

Everyone follows the EQ/WoW formula because the risks are "known" as the factors in how to develop such a game are "known" and the market is "known". This makes the pitch to investors much easier.

UO is a different beast that greatly succeeded and greatly failed in the various design and implementation areas because the ideas were new and novel. This does not help the pitch to investors. The other big issue is it is unknown how to develop a feature complete UO game in a modern 3d engine with good graphics. The lack of high quality graphics would make the sales pitch hard. Certainly the game could easily be rebuilt using something like the minecraft engine which sacrifices graphics, infact minecraft's design would be the "correct" model to match UO's 2d engine design.

Originally posted by ElderRat

Originally posted by nomatics856

it really was the back  burner to game play, I dont know what this facination about mmorpgs and story is about, but mmorpgs were good when gameplay was good, not story, I did not play EQ for the story, I did not play UO for the story, I played them for the gameplay, I played them for the exploration, to overcome mighty creatures that in todays mmorpgs I can gather up 4-5 of them and solo them easily with any class. In UO, UO HAD NO STORY, it really didnt, what made UO great was the player base

 

the gameplay, the wars, players made their own stories not the devs. This whole facination with story is ruining todays mmorpgs, less focus on story, less focus on sparkly shiny things, and more focus on gameplay.

opinion, no data presented to back opinion.  Typical MMORPG thread. LOL. My Opinion.

The premise is also false. UO had a story told through player influenceable live events. However, implementation failures and implementation costs caused the story telling to be cut over-time.

Todays new school player have no imagination. Every bit of stimulation is pounded into an already full canvas because most new school players take for granted that theyve got access to so much stimulation. Gone are the days of actually using your mind's eye to see something. Its not about the imagination, its about min maxing, spreadsheets, self entitlement and chest beating testosterone.

its almost a warning sign of things to come in western culture. Bow to your Chinese overlords.

Originally posted by Callidor

Todays new school player have no imagination. Every bit of stimulation is pounded into an already full canvas because most new school players take for granted that theyve got access to so much stimulation. Gone are the days of actually using your mind's eye to see something. Its not about the imagination, its about min maxing, spreadsheets, self entitlement and chest beating testosterone.

 

VIDEO games have NOT been about player's imagination for a long time.

If you want to use your imagination, go back to play interaction fiction like the original Zork.

I don't see a problem. Games today are entertainment products. It is about havnig fun romping a dungeon and feel powerful.

Unlimited Gameplay > One Time Content

Always. Period.

Originally posted by Callidor

Todays new school player have no imagination. Every bit of stimulation is pounded into an already full canvas because most new school players take for granted that theyve got access to so much stimulation. Gone are the days of actually using your mind's eye to see something. Its not about the imagination, its about min maxing, spreadsheets, self entitlement and chest beating testosterone.

its almost a warning sign of things to come in western culture. Bow to your Chinese overlords.

I am old school and i don't know what MMOS you are describing here? maybe you are from alternate universe? and what has Chiniese people got anything to do with topic? reading your post is like being in a twilight zone.