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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Mmorpgs were never about story telling, mmorpgs never had a story and if they did...

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197 posts found
  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1059

3/18/12 10:55:57 PM#21
Originally posted by DannyGlover

I think people confuse lore with stories. Lore sets the stage and players make the stories in more sandboxy mmos. Developer created stories like in GW2, TOR, and TSW are cool. But I look at it as a nice bonus feature instead of a cornerstone.

Yet you must also note that stories are a major form of telling a game's lore. I believe every great RPG needs some form of context so that we, the players, can understand, care about, and consequentially immerse ourselves within the worlds crafted by the developers.

  DeathTripp

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/06
Posts: 272

3/18/12 10:59:56 PM#22
Originally posted by nomatics856

mmorpgs were good when gameplay was good, not story, I did not play EQ for the story, I did not play UO for the story,

I don't know anyone who plays MMORPGs for story, instead they are always worried about achieving max level as quick as possible so they can get on to grinding for gear and grinding the same raids over and over which is quite lame in my opinion.

 

What makes an mmorpg GREAT is when both the story and gameplay are good. You seem to think if the story is good that the gameplay is not or cannot be; that's a fallacy.

-----------------------------
Real as Reality Television!!!

  cybertrucker

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1126

Freeloading mooches are the scourge of the gaming community.

3/18/12 11:23:50 PM#23

I have to say I agree with the OP pretty much. With one exception. EQ1 did have a story and some background lore. Its just it was given in small doses here and there. It wasnt thrown in your face as your  guide rails thru the game world. Instead you made your own way.

In most MMOs today we have these things  people call quests (BS they are chores)  These Chores errm quests lead us thru the game world with very fascinating (boring) Stories of what is going on in the world. OK OK.. some of the quests can actually be interesting even entertaining to read. However lets face it most of them are not. I dont know many people whom I have gamed with thru the years that will take the time to read the majority of the chore dialogue that is written. 98% of the time everyone clicks the quests looks at the objective, finds the waypoint on the map and takes off for their xp.

As for the chart above. We all know that WOW was a phenomena, that brought millions into the MMORPG game genre. Alot of that had to do with the fact Warcraft already had a huge following of fans with a very well known IP. The casual feeling of the early game was enough to get people addicted to do the high end (vanilla) harder stuff such as raids. Us old schoolers, UOers and EQ1ers we had the same feeling back when we started. THe only difference is the online world was much smaller. The games IPs were not as well known. ETC ETC.. Mass advertising campaigns were not used.

Want to get technical Look at games like Farmville and how big that exploded for a time. As we move further into the digital information age. Your going to see more games like WOW come along, or farmville. Look at the hype around GW2 right now. Over a million Beta applications in 48 hours not even WOW had that.

One last note. I have not played TOR however I do have friends that have told me that the stories are actually very good there, some of them are still playing it and enjoying it greatly. I decided to stick with EQ2 myself, and hold off to try GW2

 

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

3/18/12 11:26:27 PM#24
Originally posted by Khaeros
Originally posted by headphones

reply to exciting, new, and original reply #347872:

awesome story, bro. got pics to go with that?


 

 

 

 

Also that wasn't my reply number

 

Do you have any graphs with the statistical anomaly that is WoW removed so we can see if thre is a correlation. EDIT: previous poster beat me to the punch
  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

3/18/12 11:34:54 PM#25
Originally posted by RefMinor

 

Do you have any graphs with the statistical anomaly that is WoW removed so we can see if thre is a correlation.

 

 

You must punch with a wet noodle, then

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16583

3/18/12 11:42:36 PM#26

While the first MMOs like M59, The realm and UO never focused on the story and background that really doesn't mean all MMOs must be like that.

I personally think that Biowares story in TOR isn't great in a MMO but that does not mean you can't add a good background and tell a good story in a game, just that MMOs needs to do it in a different way than single player games.

Pen and paper RPGs can be about story or not, both works fine there and MMOs are basically the same thing on a computer so I believe the same is true for it. That noone yet really made a mechanic that works just right for the genre does not mean it can't be done.

As usual is the problem that most devs are too lazy to try something new and just steal all their mechanics from someone else.

  ace80k

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/04/05
Posts: 140

3/18/12 11:45:02 PM#27

In games like EQ there was story. Lore initiated and developed the initial story, but the overall story was only revealed through gameplay. Dungeons had to be explored fully to reveal their mysteries, same with raids. Each expansion had a story to tell, but only in actually playing through the expansion did the story come to life.

  jiveturkey12

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/04
Posts: 1284

3/18/12 11:46:53 PM#28
Originally posted by Khaeros

Reply to exciting, new, and original thread #344288:

 

A few MMOs have a story element.  If you don't like them, don't play them.  MMORPGs don't have to follow your sovereign vision of success - developers have the freedom to reach in other directions and try different things.  Isn't 'innovation' one of the key elements you people rail on about?  It doesn't happen overnight, so give the genre a few iterations worth of time and do something else.

  

Play the ones that don't focus on story.  There's lots of them too.

 

You completely missed the point, the OP is saying that story in an MMO gets replaces gameplay, when the story is totally unnessecary to begin with and only does just what you graphed, get more subs at the start of the game and then they decline after the first month cause everyones played the story out already.

 

Basically hes saying that the core of MMO's (Yes even from developers standpoints) have lost their way. We dont need story to be a main focus because the whole point of an MMO is supposed to be in a massive environment making up your own story.

 

Also with the comment in red, when was the last Mainstream MMO after Post-BC WoW that DIDNT focus on story????

 

WAR????

AION????

SWTOR???

 

Are you beginning to understand now? People get all up in arms and like to go "OOO stop forcing your ideas on devs, stop telling them what to do, you have no proof that your way is right or better so im going to make a snide remark about you."

 

But what you do have is history, and you can look back and easily say that MMO's were founded on the core idea of living in someone elses universe and making up your story. Unfortunately people like to bat around that with poor rebuttles like yours.

 

 

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16583

3/18/12 11:47:50 PM#29
Originally posted by Khaeros

Also that wasn't my reply number

Nothing at all against wow but it have about as well written lore as eq. Which means that any fantasy author that tried to get it published on it's own merits would get thrown out of any good book publishers office.

Sorry, i been playing mmos since 1996, the lore is not much better now if at all. They still have bad reasons to ask us to kill another 10 rats, some games during the years have had btter or worse lore but it have not gone from bad to good, more up and down all the time.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5322

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/18/12 11:50:48 PM#30

in my opinion in mmorpgs a good gameplay with no story is as bad as a good story with no gameplay. If i have to choose one i choose the 2 combined or nothing at all.... find something else.

If mmorpgs had nothing to do with story then mind as well remove the rpg from the name. Its not coincidence that the best stories in game come from rpgs (see all the good classic rpgs), so in an mmorpg the story should be as important and strong as the gameplay.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  OberanMiM

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 237

3/18/12 11:58:47 PM#31

The best Dungeon Masters in a pen and paper campaign are the ones that can guide you along in a story while not leading you along as if a rope is tied to you, all the while giving you a large amount of choices on how you want to tackle your objectives.

As far as MMORPG's. Those that string you along from quest to quest (on Rails) are the worst type. Most people don't even read the quests, they treat them as chores that are required to advance. The ones that hide the story in the background and encourage you to find out more about the story without making it a quest objective are the ones that suceed.

EQ had some pretty shallow lore when it was released, but it didn't string you along a path that you didn't want to go on & let you learn the story at your own pace (if you wanted to that is)

  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

3/18/12 11:59:23 PM#32
Originally posted by jiveturkey12

 why even post

 

Most of those F2P grinders don't really take well to story.  Darkfall and Mortal don't either.  EVE has a few arcs that expand lore but it isn't really story-based beyond what the players create.  I'm guessing that you can inherit Perpetuum from that idea, too.

 

There's plenty of choice, and if your dream game isn't around, you could wait or design your own fun.

 

Please look over the graphs again and consider this question:  'Did Khaeros use these graphs as a vanity reply?'

 

Here's a bonus just for you:  I create story in WoW.  And it's all with a social community that we have grown through the years.  Crazy, huh?

  Isawa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/08
Posts: 1066

3/19/12 12:12:41 AM#33
Originally posted by nomatics856

the gameplay, the wars, players made their own stories not the devs. This whole facination with story is ruining todays mmorpgs, less focus on story, less focus on sparkly shiny things, and more focus on gameplay.

I'll bite, with the rise in the popularity of the MMORPG genre, came the increased number of "lesser" gamers. These "lesser" gamers are the need it now types (most of society), composed of but not including the entirety of or limited to kids, bandwagoners (hype followers), people with very little gaming experience, and the generally foolish: examples trolls and fanboys :P

The smaller crowd of let us say pen and paper gamers, or the community who could make their own story and enjoyment a reality, became a minority.

With the influx of the new, the creators were like "oh, now we can make money easily since this new lot is so easy to scam" or "now we must serve this new lot, since its the majority and we won't make money otherwise". Sparkly shiny things released weekly, guided pathways to follow to get the sparkly shiny things, and building a nice big sparkly shining themepark suits  these folks well. Most everything else can be dumbed down.

Huge change in community = huge change in gameplay.

  Isawa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/08
Posts: 1066

3/19/12 12:14:19 AM#34

Oh ya, since I didn't outright state it. Story = the most recent thing to jump onto and promote in your game ;)

  junzo316

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/19/07
Posts: 1690

3/19/12 12:14:36 AM#35

I love a good story.  Leading a character that I created thru that story in a persistant world is why I play MMORPG's.  Sure, gameplay has to be there as well, but without a good story (LotRO, SWTOR)  I get bored easily.  A good MMORPG has both imo.

 

  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

3/19/12 12:16:16 AM#36
Originally posted by eluldor

Huge change in community = huge change in gameplay.

 

Not if you create your own guilds and communities within a game, only bringing in people that have proven to you that they are social, group-friendly, and (in my case) roleplayers.

 

Just because the game has a dungeon finder that allows you to random to max doesn't mean you have to use it to get enjoyment.  You just have to seek out your own fun within the game, with people that you want to bring along.

  jiveturkey12

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/04
Posts: 1284

3/19/12 12:22:49 AM#37
Originally posted by Khaeros
Originally posted by jiveturkey12

 why even post

 

Most of those F2P grinders don't really take well to story.  Darkfall and Mortal don't either.  EVE has a few arcs that expand lore but it isn't really story-based beyond what the players create.  I'm guessing that you can inherit Perpetuum from that idea, too.

 

There's plenty of choice, and if your dream game isn't around, you could wait or design your own fun.

 

Please look over the graphs again and consider this question:  'Did Khaeros use these graphs as a vanity reply?'

 

Here's a bonus just for you:  I create story in WoW.  And it's all with a social community that we have grown through the years.  Crazy, huh?

 

Yes, and thats great for you that you can make a roleplaying community in WoW, and your right you can roleplay in any game on the market right now simply by using your imagination!

 

You know what else you can imagine?

 

The fear when you go into a dungeon and your roleplaying.

even the joy you and your RP group feels from slaying a big monster

 

You know why? Because MMO's that are story drive are also extremely easy, because story also means catering to single player gamers and making the game linear so you dont ever get too lost or too confused.

Thats the difference right there my friend, in EQ you had to work to get into the pits of a dungeon, you were actually scared when you faced that final boss because you could die, and you wouldnt just get right back up or walk back in 5 minutes.

Your character progressed IN THE GAME!

Thats the point no one is talking about, in all these games the gameplay mechanics worked in a way that you coule roleplay during gameplay and have it be meaningful. Im sure your WoW RP sessions are great for you, a bunch of people standing in a room and doing emotes occasionally, and if thats the kinda RP you Like, stick with WoW man.

But guess what, theres alot of us out there who want gameplay and RP to be back to old school MMO's and actually be in tandem with each other.

In other words, Im going to continue saying what im saying, and I hope others do too, because eventually a company will make a good MMO again, and yes I mean that, not a single GOOD or even decent MMO has come out Post WoW.

O and the comment "make your own" is laughable, do you think everyone that has an opinion on something has the capabilites to make a full fledged MMO??? Yes, your right, theoretically we all could go make an MMO, but instead I think well just sit back and complain until someone hears what were saying, if anything your posts are just muffling what is an actualy worth while cause. And no its not because I think MMO's Suck now, its cause alot of people do, and I think a decent minority is worth hearing out rather than snuffing because they arent going with the norm.

 

 

  Isawa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/08
Posts: 1066

3/19/12 12:24:03 AM#38
Originally posted by Khaeros
Originally posted by eluldor

Huge change in community = huge change in gameplay.

Not if you create your own guilds and communities within a game, only bringing in people that have proven to you that they are social, group-friendly, and (in my case) roleplayers.

 

Just because the game has a dungeon finder that allows you to random to max doesn't mean you have to use it to get enjoyment.  You just have to seek out your own fun within the game, with people that you want to bring along.

True, but I was looking at a bigger picture. Gameplay in this sense = what the developers created for you to play. I'm fairly certain there has been a change in what is offered in any given more recent game because of the large audience appeal.

You can still make any game better or worse by choosing who you'll play with, but overall you're still most likely being pushed to play a certain way by the game's feature, which will reflect the developers creating a game for a larger mass than a small number of people like in UO.

  zymurgeist

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5185

3/19/12 12:25:43 AM#39

MMORPGs are about whatever the people who make them want them to be about. It can be about combat or stories or boobies. All are equally valid approaches.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  User Deleted
3/19/12 12:26:33 AM#40


Originally posted by stealthbr


Originally posted by DannyGlover
I think people confuse lore with stories. Lore sets the stage and players make the stories in more sandboxy mmos. Developer created stories like in GW2, TOR, and TSW are cool. But I look at it as a nice bonus feature instead of a cornerstone.


Yet you must also note that stories are a major form of telling a game's lore. I believe every great RPG needs some form of context so that we, the players, can understand, care about, and consequentially immerse ourselves within the worlds crafted by the developers.


Yes but what you are describing is the lore of the game. Story is more personal. For example, in SWG they said "here is whats happening in this galaxy right now. Good guys here, bad guys there, neutral guys ober there, this planet has these guys, that planet has this faction.." and so on. Then they say, "no go out there and make your story."

In new mmos its more like, "heres our world and heres your character. This is what your character does in this world. Here is who you'll meet, and how youre going to engage in this conflict."

You may get a couple superficial choices like TOR's wheel or GW2's prerequisite questionnaire. But it boils down to the devs telling your story in their world. It can be fun and entertaining to see how a pre written story like that unfolds, but my preferred mmo story is the one where I make a character in their world and tell my story in it.

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